Australia apology to Aborigines

[sanzar]

all good CA - everyones allowed to post

dont say sorry though - Shtove will think some form of payback/compo is warranted

Shtove
"Justice will only be done if they're given money and land"

the only thing remotely correct he has said - but given it wasnt against the current law at the time, how can this be done

But they arent after justice - just an apology, acknowledgment of wrong doings [/b]

Precisely. You really need to talk to Aboriginal people to understand how frustrating it was for them that this horrible injustice was brought upon them and yet the government stubbornly refused to even give them an official apology (and I believ the others have adequately elaborated on the definition of apology for it to be clear that it doesn't entail retroactive legal procedures) after the Keating report was produced... and this is my quarm with your comments Shtove. You sit back and basically say "ah the bloody governments are all full of **** and this means nothin', but it clearly does mean something, in fact it means a heck of a lot to a heck of a lot of people, so why the bitterness on your part? You haven't even had a chance to see what the government will do to follow this up yet and you don't understand the history of this particular event, so it's kind of rich for you to be telling us how pointless it is.
This goes for you too CA, you really do have to know this issue (and that it's a particularly flamable one) if you're going to make negative comments about it... no need to get all precious just because a couple people snapped at you, that's a given with something like this. The best thing you can do is address anybody's arguments or criticisms that you disagree with logically.

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

We need 70 decibels of Midnight Oil on the rapid infuser STAT!

An apology or at least an acknowledgement is due from both the Australian and British governments.

The culture clash between the two peoples is possibly the most extreme in history....the two ideaologies were so utterly alien to each other and incompatible that it was always going lead to tragedy.

 

[melon]

Why does there need to be an apology from the British governement? The Aboriginal people are not seeking one. The Brits were hardly involved...the majority of the "stolen generation" were taken away when Australia was self governed!

 

[C A Iversen]

This goes for you too CA, you really do have to know this issue (and that it's a particularly flamable one) if you're going to make negative comments about it... no need to get all precious just because a couple people snapped at you, that's a given with something like this. The best thing you can do is address anybody's arguments or criticisms that you disagree with logically. [/b]

Where did I make a negative comment relating to the actual issue?

Being snapped at and told your opinion is "sh*t" isn't a given. Being able to say that because an issue is local to you and highly sensitive, you can bad mouth people from other regions who want to put their opinions forward is the exact opposite of civilised conversation. I know not everyone said it, but a few did and no other Aussie told them to quiet down and let others talk.

I wasn't getting "precious" about anything, I was employing sarcasm to get the message to Shtove that whatever he ever says in this thread will always be wrong even if he agreed with the majority of Australian posters. I saw the "you wouldn't understand if your not from here" thing often enough to know that he's on a hiding to nothing whatever he says.

If a thread for conversation ever started on the situations relating to the Treaty Of Waitangi in New Zealand and the issues of Maori sovereignty, would it be alright for Aussie posters to be told they don't understand the situation well enough, their opinions are sh*t and that they shouldn't be posting?

Ok, who's next to shoot at me again, it's only my opinion. Let's see how long before I'm told not to express it. :lol:

 

[sanzar]

<div class='quotemain'>
This goes for you too CA, you really do have to know this issue (and that it's a particularly flamable one) if you're going to make negative comments about it... no need to get all precious just because a couple people snapped at you, that's a given with something like this. The best thing you can do is address anybody's arguments or criticisms that you disagree with logically. [/b]

Where did I make a negative comment relating to the actual issue?

Being snapped at and told your opinion is "sh*t" isn't a given. Being able to say that because an issue is local to you and highly sensitive, you can bad mouth people from other regions who want to put their opinions forward is the exact opposite of civilised conversation. I know not everyone said it, but a few did and no other Aussie told them to quiet down and let others talk.

I wasn't getting "precious" about anything, I was employing sarcasm to get the message to Shtove that whatever he ever says in this thread will always be wrong even if he agreed with the majority of Australian posters. I saw the "you wouldn't understand if your not from here" thing often enough to know that he's on a hiding to nothing whatever he says.

If a thread for conversation ever started on the situations relating to the Treaty Of Waitangi in New Zealand and the issues of Maori sovereignty, would it be alright for Aussie posters to be told they don't understand the situation well enough, their opinions are sh*t and that they shouldn't be posting?

Ok, who's next to shoot at me again, it's only my opinion. Let's see how long before I'm told not to express it. :lol: [/b][/quote]



You must understand that I'm not condoning people being outwardly rude to you and trying to "shoot you down", but rather that you have to expect it with something like this. It's just the way it is unfortunately... You didn't really make any outwardly negative comments, but rather some assumptions about what will follow from your own experience with similar events in NZ that some people didn't seem to think were quite the same and probably got a little overzealous (and yes, if Aussies were posting on a kiwi issue I'd expect more than a few kiwis would get the shits if they didn't feel they quite understood - again, this doesn't mean it's acceptable, but volatile issues have a habit of doing that to people), but by being dismissive and sarcastic you didn't really react in the kind of measured and civilised manner that you are seemingly suggesting we all conduct ourselves. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but you're going to win more arguments by being constructive than you will with sarcasm. Which is what you've just done to your credit.

 

[C A Iversen]

True enough, it's issues like these that can remind us all why it's both such a wonderful and horrible thing that everyone is so different.

Thanks for your reply. I just wish everyone could keep a level head in their responses like you have. Still it's to be expected I suppose.

It's a fascinating read this thread, but I keep having these thoughts of "Ohhh, I know what I'd like to add here!", but then I stop myself and realise that in some ways I can't.

 

[Prestwick]

It is nice that apart from one or two incidents, this thread has been pretty balanced and insightful. Generally interesting is what I'd call it.

The whole issue of Britain's involvement in anything to do with the words "Empire", "local people" and "land" is highly complex. It just isn't as simple as saying "the British" and equating the word "British" with "English". That however is for another discussion, Its just a fact that because of the sheer distances involved, the authorities representing the Crown in Australia before it gained Dominion status could have decreed that everyone had to walk around in clown suits and walk on their hands regardless of what anyone at the Colonial office in London said. Empire was far more independent in thought and action than people think. Thus, its pretty illogical to think that London should apologise for anything.

 

[Maccaweeny]

It is nice that apart from one or two incidents, this thread has been pretty balanced and insightful. Generally interesting is what I'd call it.

The whole issue of Britain's involvement in anything to do with the words "Empire", "local people" and "land" is highly complex. It just isn't as simple as saying "the British" and equating the word "British" with "English". That however is for another discussion, Its just a fact that because of the sheer distances involved, the authorities representing the Crown in Australia before it gained Dominion status could have decreed that everyone had to walk around in clown suits and walk on their hands regardless of what anyone at the Colonial office in London said. Empire was far more independent in thought and action than people think. Thus, its pretty illogical to think that London should apologise for anything. [/b]

fo'shizzle.

 

[Haj]

there is no segregation but you will never see a white person sit down near an Aboriginal. [/b]

Tell me about it!! The amont of times ive been on the joondalup line in peak hours and have had nobody sit next to me no matter how squishy the train gets amuses me. Then when i do the righty and give up my seat to an old **** , every other **** dives for the seat nobody previously wanted to sit on. Im not even an aborigine! Hahaha!! :lol: Pathetic really!



Most has been already said very well but the whole compo thing really annoys the crap out of me!

Compo attempts have already been made before the apology. The federal government under howard spent millions fighting the claims. Since when does one wait for an apology before proceeding to sue or litigate? Theres enough records in state and federal arvchives of institutonal racism taking place for anybody who felt the need to proceed with litigation apology or no apology forthcoming. Those conservatives hell bent on dragging up the compensation line in my opinion are just annoyed that somebody somewhere may be receiving handouts and they arent. And it annoys em even more that the people in this case are black. It pretty much somes up the way aussies generally are these days. All this lip service about aussie values and mateship is a load of ****. If u dont believe me then our records speaks for itself by allowing an arsehole like John Howard lead the country for as long as he did and in the process turned our back on our international maritime obligations and to politicize the children overboard drama and sparked xenophobia amongst the electorates that aunty pauline hansen couldve only dreamed of, His lies in duping debt stricken voters that he would keep interest rates low, knowing full well he had very little control over it, the erosion of our workplace laws which peaked with work choices....choices which the elctorate knew nothing about cos johnny never had it as a policy in the previous election..........choices that your ancestors from the stockade wouldve been turning in their graves about and the many other policies in health and education that was hell bent in turning it into an unfair and inferior american system.

This country is a "ME" country and not a "WE" country as we so often like to pretend to be. Driven by greed and enslaved by debt encourged by the last government, most australians these days would just as easily step on a fellow white aussie battler as they would an aboriginal if it meant saving or gaining a dollar!

Ends rant.

 

[Maccaweeny]

I know the U.N's HDI index concluded that Australia has the 3rd best standard of living in the world. I know we're one of the largest exporters of human capital per capita, have low incidences of HIV/AIDS infection, violent crime and human trafficking (one of the lowest out of all OECD nations). Yet don't believe all that **** kay, we actually have heaps to complain about! Just watch us!

People don't sit next to each other on the bus, and forget the organised killings by far-right interest groups in Muscovite Russia. Forget about mass-killings of madurese in Indonesia, we've got racism down to pat.

I mean, ****, we enjoy a standard of living that the majority of the world's population cannot even comprehend, yet we *****? No country is perfect, and i'll be the first to admit that Australia doesn't even come close, but in the light of communities where unemployment can run as high as 80%, *****ing about Workplace reform comes off as pathetic.

Even better, following the failure of the 'Burmese path to Socialism' the Junta has engendered a situation where farmers, starving due to soil degradation caused by poor central planning, have oft been forced to sell their children (easy option, people can't afford prophylactics) to the Indian and Chinese black market. Yet despite this ****, a leader like Howard is portrayed by many Australians in a manner that would seem unfair in describing the mentally retarded offspring of a union between Satan and a meth-addicted hooker.

If **** really bothers you, join a lobby group, or otherwise keep it for the voting box. Accept the fact that you're lucky to be born in this country and leave the teenage angst and the ****-moaning for emos and sexually confused 13 year olds.



End Rant.

 

[BLR]

Is that a picture of you mate? Sounds like it...yeah okay, Germany was the same between the wars, but if you sit back and just let things happen something terrible will happen eg. Hitler....stop advocating its bad to try to make our country a better place to live in, speaking up about it is the freedom our forefathers earnt. Feel free to go work sweat shops if you want, doesn't bother me.

 

[Maccaweeny]

If you actually read my post, It's blatantly obvious that i'm not advocating doing nothing at all. I said, if it really bothers you, go join a lobby or interest group, or keep it for the ballot. It's bound to achieve more than *****ing over the internet.

EDIT: oh and 'mate', despite being a massive emo, I sit next to an Aboriginal nearly every day, one happens to be my bloody cousin and the other a good friend. I guess i'm the exception to the rule though.

 

[shtove]

Weird.

Australia is not a special case. People are people: the ideal of justice is the same for everyone. And the reality of justice is compensation - what goes in to your pocket to help pay the bills you racked up because some fcuker decided to kick you in the head.

What's this about retroactive law making? If a wrong has been done by common standards, then it must be put right no matter what the contemporary law allowed for. You can claim that people didn't have common standards back in the '70s, but that's like saying we have evolved in to a different species in the space of thirty years.

Justice is not served by a false apology. Might as well be in Soviet Russia for all the good that does to people's lives. To deny justice is a disaster, even when the denial is endorsed by the latest happy-clappy politician.

Grow a pair.

 

[BLR]

If you actually read my post, It's blatantly obvious that i'm not advocating doing nothing at all. I said, if it really bothers you, go join a lobby or interest group, or keep it for the ballot. It's bound to achieve more than *****ing over the internet.
[/b]

It's an internet forum, do you think half of these topics would exist if there weren't views to convey via them...the simple fact, as my English mates who often come over have told me, Australia is a bloody nanny state, it's all well and good saying that you will join a lobby group...when has a lobby group actually achieved anything...the reconciliation groups have lasted for generations and the only ground they made was because of a new PM trying to set himself apart from the previous PM....

And as for you sitting next to an Aboriginal every day, that's great, the real problem is people that don't know ANY Aboriginals instantly stereotype them as this scourge of society...I've grown up and played sport etc. with Aboriginals so I know better then all the filth put out there about Aboriginals...

@shtove, read the rest of the topic, you are saying the same points which have already been addressed....

 

[shtove]

@shtove, read the rest of the topic, you are saying the same points which have already been addressed.... [/b]

**** - thought I was the one who interrupted the circle-jerk of self congratulation on this thread.

Lobby groups make ALL the difference - but only if they pay cash. Who paid out the most funds for Bush? And for Hillary Clinton, and every other serious American politician? The banking industry. Who's employing Tony Blair? The banking industry. Don't know about Howard, but he seems to have the same pedigree.

 

[BLR]

Lobby groups make ALL the difference - but only if they pay cash. Who paid out the most funds for Bush? And for Hillary Clinton, and every other serious American politician? The banking industry. Who's employing Tony Blair? The banking industry. Don't know about Howard, but he seems to have the same pedigree.
[/b]

And how many cashed up lobby groups actually care about social issues?

 

[Haj]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!


End Rant. [/b]

Sure living standards in Australia are great compared to a 3rd world undemocratic countries.

It doesnt mean we cant strive to be even better, especially since weve gone backwards in recent times. But im optimistic. Australia woke the f*** up and shafted lil honest johnny. Its a start i guess.



I understand ur contempt towards my rant. The blatant hypocrisy of so called "Aussie Values" doesnt sit well with you does it?

 

[Maccaweeny]

"What's this about retroactive law making? If a wrong has been done by common standards, then it must be put right no matter what the contemporary law allowed for. You can claim that people didn't have common standards back in the '70s, but that's like saying we have evolved in to a different species in the space of thirty years."

- You can't hold a party responsible for actions they believed to be perfectly legal at the time of incidence (except if you're occupying germany, i.e Nuremberg). Using the argument that people must be held responsible for actions that go against 'common standards,' is also tricky ground, morality and ethics are transient, subject to social and cultural practices that are themselves endlessly variable.

The burden of proof rests upon the prosecution, to prove that someon committing an illegal act possessed mens rea (i.e guilty mind). It's this state of mind, of intent to break the law which is used to differentiate between a car accident and a child killer. Yet, when someone commits an act that is (at the time) perfectly legal, where is the guilty mind?

Furthermore, if you live in a system where the legislature can enact laws that punish previous actions, where is your civic liberty? How would you know that seemingly normal actions (such as sexual intercourse between unmarried couples) would not be later deemed illegal by the legislature, punishable regardless of it being perfectly legal at the time of incidence? That's what it comes down to; I know there is a massive difference between removing children from their parents and sex, but the legislature and the judiciary are either given the powers to create-enforce retroactive legislation or they aren't, and where retroactive law exists, so does the possibility of tyranny.

"The blatant hypocrisy of so called "Aussie Values" doesnt sit well with you does it?"

-I didn't mention, nor have I ever mentioned Australian values on this forum.