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Boks to miss World Cup?

Q

QKXV

Guest
Good day all.

I just saw this story on Rugby365.com:

Boks to miss World Cup?
Tuesday 03rd April 2007

The South African rugby team may have their passports confiscated if the make-up of the side does not meet government's transformation requirements.

This is according to Butana Komphela, the chairperson of South Africa's parliamentary committee on sport.

"My fear is that the Boks will not be at the World Cup," he told Die Burger.

"We will try to convince the minister of home affairs to cancel the passports if the team is not representative.

"I'm sketching the worst case scenario and we don't want it to happen. We are well-mannered but deadly serious about it.

But strangely enough, if six out of the World Cup squad of 30 are players of colour that may be enough to avoid disaster.

"We will not be happy with six players, but would regard it as a good start," said Komphela.

"We would like to see that SA Rugby considers all the talent that is available when choosing the squad.

"Six out of 30 is not representative, but it's a good start. If good reasons are provided, we will take it into consideration and change our approach. Nobody has control over things like injuries.

"In principle we won't allow a team that is not representative of the South African picture to represent the country."

Andy Marinos, Manager of South African National Teams, was taken aback when informed of Komphela's comments by this website.

"This has come completely out of left field.

"Our Managing Director (Jonathan Stones) and our Chief Executive (Johan Prinsloo) have been in talks with Komphela and Deputy Minister of Sport Gert Oosthuizen since their appointments.

"But this is completely surprising.

"I don't know what line of authority Komphela has if he would choose to undertake such action."

Oregan Hoskins, the President of the South African Rugby Union said Komphela's comments would be regarded in a "serious light".

"We have not nearly finalised the group of players. We want to co-operate with the government and will talk to them often," he told Die Burger.




Most of you who know my feeloings about the quota system will no doubt know what I think of this but what does evryone else think? What would rugby across the world be like if all nations allowed this sort of political bullsh1t to intervene. It was because of politics that SA were not allowed to international rugby for a very long time and to many people in SA and several people on this forum the 95 world cup promised the end of politics in SA sport. To me the actions of people like Komphela shows a deep disrespect for the progress that has been made in SA since 94 and it helps to pollute a social atmosphere that can do with a lot less finger pointing and a hell of a lot more winning. Nobody cared about skin colour when Pienaar lifted the RWC in 95 and if SA can hack it this time around nobody back home will care if half the team were Henson-orange or ROG-blue.
 
C

Cymro

Guest
What a pile of crap!!!

I think politics coming into Sport is always bad. To be honest If the black players are good enough then they will play. If not then they wont get picked. South Africa have a problem with this. It happened in Cricket and also the football!

The SA Government should leave the game alone!
 
D

Dumbo

Guest
Mine's pretty simple "the world is full of wankers, once everyone clicks then you have a world full off unemployed wankers".

Looking at the Super 14, I'd say though it shouldn't be to hard to pick more than 6 players for South Africa based on their ability. Rose, Januarie, Sephaka, Tyibilika, Fortuin (?), Eddie Fredericks, Passens, Floors, Conradie, Paulse, Andrews, Habana, Ndungane, Ralepelle... can't be hard?
 
D

DNAPlay

Guest
Mine's pretty simple "the world is full of wankers, once everyone clicks then you have a world full off unemployed wankers".

Looking at the Super 14, I'd say though it shouldn't be to hard to pick more than 6 players for South Africa based on their ability. Rose, Januarie, Sephaka, Tyibilika, Fortuin (?), Eddie Fredericks, Passens, Floors, Conradie, Paulse, Andrews, Habana, Ndungane, Ralepelle... can't be hard?
[/b]

You don't get it though Dumbo, the idea behind a national team is that it represents a collection of the absolute best players of a particular country. The players listed above certainly are good, but are they best, per position, in South Africa? Not quite. I'd say only Habana falls into that category, while players like Tyibilika and Sephaka have fallen so far behind, that it would be a disgrace were they selected now for the Boks.

Look, the black population were held back both physically and mentally during apartheid, and as such need to be "reimbursed" so to speak - perfect. Do it from grass roots up, at school and club level, so that special attention is paid to them during their "rugby education years". But don't do it when they're representing their country, where their every move is scrutinised by the entire world. Of course, the above theory is just a generalisation, as since we've had over a decade of democracy, many players of colour have gone through the same learning processes as white players, whereby they went to top schools and varsities.

Bottom line: If a player is picked to represent his country, irrespective of colour, and there is a player who is better than him left on the sidelines, it's a lie, and therefore, wrong.
 
D

Dumbo

Guest
Agree.

One thing though it's a squad of 30 and some of the names that I listed are worth considering.
Just hope it all works out for you guys, cannot imagine anyone being so stupid to not allow SA to participate in the World Cup...

Why's this f&*king thing centered?
 
Q

QKXV

Guest
The fact is there is some phenomenal talent in SA, both white and black. But the question that keeps sticking in my mind: " Is this goverment pushed 'race selection' the best way?" - Which is pretty much the same thing DNA Play asks, and his suggestion to push these guys from the grass roots up is much better than what Komphela and the goverment threatens to do....

This approach of theirs(SA GOV) is no doubt damaging the capabilities and talents of the very players the goverment wants to see in the side, imagine what goes through your head if you make the squad and you happen to not be white...."Is it because I am the best at this position or is it because I am a better representation of my country"

- Any focused athlete will tell you, the slightest bit of disbelief, a split second of indecision is what seperates the winners from the losers and in my opinion to have half a springbok side with this tiny little bit of unconcscious doubt in their minds will be very costly to the Bok world cup campaign.
 
D

DNAPlay

Guest
Well the government has since denied these statements, as they would, but the fact remains that there is definitely an unspoken quota system in place. What amazes me though is the fact that picking a player purely based on colour is a direct contravention of the Olympic charter. Sure, the RWC is not the Olympics, but the IOC Charter is pretty much the yardstick for other sporting organisations, in this case, the IRB.

4 The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must
have the possibility of practising sport, without discrimination of any
kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding
with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play. The organisation,
administration and management of sport must be controlled by
independent sports organisations.
5 Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person
on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is
incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement.

Now, how does the SA government continually get away with deciding on the composition of our sporting teams, when the above statement forbids them to do so. As I said, the above doesnt directly apply to rugby, but that said, we have quotas in place for our Olympic teams as well, an example being the exclusion of our mens hockey side travelling to Sydney in 2000 due to the fact that they weren't "representative" enough.

Once again, all I'm saying is let the best man play, regardless of his colour.
 
G

Gay-Guy

Guest
It almost looks like Apartheid all over again. Except now it is the white people who are being discriminated again.

Governments can pretty much decide what they want when it comes to policies. Here in NZ they are about to pass an anti-smacking bill despite 80% of Kiwis opposing it. So the S.A Govt will pretty much do what they want in whatever issue they decide to delve their hand in. Unfortunately they have picked on rugby and may have overstepped the mark.

To have teams based on a quota system is promoting "fair play" and not competitive winning. It is something you might do at junior levels in primary schoools....not at a professional level with adults where a lot of money is involved.

Rupert Murdoch the S14 money man may feel ripped off. What would the S.A Govt say if he withdrew S.A from the S14? Who would major networks wanna back to make a competition? A S.A team with lots of second rate non-whites or a top rate AB team? The people with the money want a good return. They would do the research and find out what teams people want to watch. To put it bluntly no one wants to watch second rate teams even if they are winning. Fans want to go to a game and see the best players available.
 
D

danny_bullen

Guest
Perhaps we need to open our minds a bit more, the country has been through apartheid and some will say that it is still coming out of apartheid, jsut because we are told by the media that apartheid has been abolished doesnt mean that the blacks have been given equal status in SA.

and this - "5 Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is
incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement."

in the eyes of any indigenous person could be seen to be the reason why their should be a quota system to ensure that they do get the same opportunities as those whom held them in apartheid for years.

Unfortunately its the countries past that has created the need for these quota systems - and these systems will keep the country in an apartheid state CATCH 22 if you ask me
 
D

Dumbo

Guest
Fair point there Danny.
I'll still come back to my point that in watching the Super 14 it's not hard to pick more than 6 coloured players on merit.
 
M

Mr. Laxative

Guest
Indeed... certainly that is true, but are there white players better off filling these positions? I'd say yes in some cases!

Anyway, if they do pull out, does that mean Uruguay get in by default - it'd be a pretty interesting Pool if they do, with the places for QF fairly open. Of course, I'd be ruling out Uruguay.
 
Q

QKXV

Guest
Perhaps we need to open our minds a bit more, the country has been through apartheid and some will say that it is still coming out of apartheid, jsut because we are told by the media that apartheid has been abolished doesnt mean that the blacks have been given equal status in SA.

and this - "5 Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is
incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement."

in the eyes of any indigenous person could be seen to be the reason why their should be a quota system to ensure that they do get the same opportunities as those whom held them in apartheid for years.

Unfortunately its the countries past that has created the need for these quota systems - and these systems will keep the country in an apartheid state CATCH 22 if you ask me
[/b]

Perhaps you didn't read the first posts Danny so I wll summarize and hopefully clrea up the confused state in which you posted the above.

No one here are in any doubt about SA's political past, in fact, the honourable open minded member DNA Play actually makes reference to this when he says:

Look, the black population were held back both physically and mentally during apartheid, and as such need to be "reimbursed" so to speak - perfect.[/b]

He then cleverly suggests the following alternative to the current Tit for tat strategy employed by the SA GOV (and from what you post above you support):

Do it from grass roots up, at school and club level, so that special attention is paid to them during their "rugby education years". But don't do it when they're representing their country, where their every move is scrutinised by the entire world. Of course, the above theory is just a generalisation, as since we've had over a decade of democracy, many players of colour have gone through the same learning processes as white players, whereby they went to top schools and varsities.
[/b]

Apartheid is over. Fact. What's going on in SA is not apartheid, it's a nasty hangover from a stupid regime that was over more than 13 years ago.... which incidently will also be gone in another 13 years when my dad's generation turns to dust in their graves. Apartheid has been over for 13 years. The black players you see on the SA circuit now are all products of the end of apartheid. THese players went to high schools and universities in those 13 years and played their rugby at these ex- priviledged white institutions.

Hence my comment:
To me the actions of people like Komphela shows a deep disrespect for the progress that has been made in SA since 94 and it helps to pollute a social atmosphere that can do with a lot less finger pointing[/b]

Your comment about the indiginous people possibly seeing the Olympic Movement's anti discrimination law as more of a reason to have a quota system, ensuring they get the same oppertunities as those who held them in apartheid for years is plain stupidity - Who were those people....? Luke Watson, Schalk Burger, Ruan Pienaar....Those ********, how dare they.

Danny Boy, Danny boy.....for as long as there are narrow minded South Africans (and now sadly 1 kiwi :p ) thinking that the best way to ensure equality would be to punish the children of the apartheid-era opressor, we will see the CATCH22 you refer to - For, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind - but, by truly opening our minds and allowing the sins of the fathers to no longer plague the children of Mother Africa the Springboks will have a team of players selected purely on the merit of their talents. A whole squad of men, standing side by side with no doubt in their heart of hearts that they and their team mates are the one for the job. That my friend is equality.
 
T

The TRUTH

Guest
Fair point there Danny.
I'll still come back to my point that in watching the Super 14 it's not hard to pick more than 6 coloured players on merit.
[/b]

Give it a go then...

Tell us which six bruthaz deserve to be in the 30 man squad? (bare in mind that 6 is the minimum and somewhere between 10-12 is the more likely number).

I can only think of 4 and they're all wingers.... Even then you could argue that guys like Ludik/J.Pretorius would be a better choice than JP/twins (the one trick ponies, who'd rather kick it away than take on their opposite number.)

If the JW plans on taking 3 halfbacks ,using Pienaar in a utility role, then i guess you could also make a case for Ricky.

So thats...

Habana
Paulse
JP
one of the Ndungane's (probably Akona)
Januarie

I still dont see where they're gonna get another 5-7 players of colour without seriously diluting the quality of the squad.
 
S

shtove

Guest
They should tuck the SA sevens team into their carry-on luggage: in the Hong Kong matches last week there was only one white guy, and the rest of his teammates were pacy and big.

If blacks are to be encouraged into the game, then let government fund clubs where they won't be treated like ****. But that gets us back to quotas and public money. Hmmmm .... why don't they just ban diveball?

A politician who makes controversial statements at controversial moments is speaking to only one audience - his own constituents. Doesn't matter how it sounds to outsiders, he'll just want to be able to go amongst his people in a few months and hear them say, Yeah you told the ********! It's posturing, nothing will come of it.

Ennyhoooo. One day that country is truly going to be represented by its best atheletes, and SA will blow the RWC apart.

Can we get back to left alignment (with justification) - instead of this 'Let's not offend anyone' sitting-on-the-fence centre alignment?
 
P

Prestwick

Guest
Politicians who make controversial statements at controversial moments are speaking to only one group of people - their own constituents. Doesn't matter how it sounds to outsiders, he'll just want to be able to go amongst his people in a few months and hear them say, Yeah you told the ********! It's posturing, nothing will come of it.
[/b]

This isn't your standard Ireland hosted EU summit, this is African politics. Even with the best of intentions, usually when someone starts posturing and talking dangerously, it usually ends in something bad, possibly even serious violence.

Let the ANC have another decade of electoral dictatorship and see what is happening in 2017.

Let me be clear when I say that I am not saying that South Africa will certainly turn into another Zimbabwe in ten to twenty years....its just that in African politics, power certainly corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

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