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[Champions Cup 2018] Semi Final - Leinster v Scarlets

@Thingimubob there a big difference between Munster in the Aviva (A stadium we never like) in Pro 14 final vs Leinster (who love the Aviva and are at home) in a European Cup semi final.

I'm huge fan of Scarlets and what they have developed. But sorry they have not been in these waters recently. I'd be happy if wrong and it tight good game but Leinster by a gap is what I feel
 
Not saying Leinster don;t deserve to be favourites, just that the bookies have habit of underestimating the Scarlets!

To be honest I think this is just that odds tend to be based on the amount of bets and that there aren't a huge amount of people in Llanelli.
 
To be honest I think this is just that odds tend to be based on the amount of bets and that there aren't a huge amount of people in Llanelli.

Only true if Leinster have been backed in.

Saying that Scarlets winning as underdogs twice shows that the bookies underestimate them smacks to me of a lack of understanding of probability. If the match was played 100 times, maybe these examples would have been the only time they'd have won. If the bookies do indeed underestimate them, I'd expect to see them covering the handicap significantly more often than not over a significant sample size.
 
@Thingimubob there a big difference between Munster in the Aviva (A stadium we never like) in Pro 14 final vs Leinster (who love the Aviva and are at home) in a European Cup semi final.

I'm huge fan of Scarlets and what they have developed. But sorry they have not been in these waters recently. I'd be happy if wrong and it tight good game but Leinster by a gap is what I feel

Very true and I definitely agree with you that these are new waters for the Scarlets, and a lot will come down to how they respond to the pressure. However the Scarlets have showed over the last two seasons that they're making great strides in that respect, and have done fantastically well at times to get the job done when the odds and pressure has been against them.

Also agree that there's a big difference between facing Munster and Leinster in the Aviva, which would be more of a factor for me if the Scarlets hadn't beaten Leinster in the semi final at the RDS last year - a stadium that Leinster have a far better record than they do at Lansdowne Road in recent years.

Think Alpha Bro said they had a 95% win record and RDS since 2009/10 vs a 70% record at the Aviva? Although that stat will be slightly different now after Treviso last weekend!

Either way - Leinster clear favourites and if they play at their best (which will mean stopping the Scarlets doing what they do best) then can only see Leinster winning comfortably. However if Leinster don't shut the Scarlets down, then we know they score tries for fun, have a mobile back row that can win pens at the breakdown, with one of the best kickers in the game ready to turn that into points.

For me I reckon it could be a hell of a game!

Only true if Leinster have been backed in.

Saying that Scarlets winning as underdogs twice shows that the bookies underestimate them smacks to me of a lack of understanding of probability. If the match was played 100 times, maybe these examples would have been the only time they'd have won. If the bookies do indeed underestimate them, I'd expect to see them covering the handicap significantly more often than not over a significant sample size.

While that's true looking at it from a purely statistical point of view, doesn't really factor in the surrounding context - the key aspect being the Scarlets' form at the time.

At the time, the Scarlets run of form at the end of last season was nigh on perfect, and they were playing easily the most complete rugby in the league with a ridiculous amount of confidence. This really showed in both performances - they tore Leinster apart in the first half, and were pretty dominant up until Steff Evans' red card. They then went on to destroy Munster pretty much from the off in the final, to the point that result was pretty much confirmed by the half hour mark.

That's why I think the Scarlets were underrated in those two games, as the odds simply did not reflect how well the Scarlets were playing at the time
 
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If Luke McGrath is out I would not be at all confident.
Not confident 'at all' is a bit of a stretch. I think with Conan back, allowing one of him or Murphy to be a strong option off the bench with either Ruddock (I heard he wasn't training fully last week but nothing this week, is he fit?) or Deegan. That definitely strengthens the back row because while I think Jordi is great I also think he's a wasted pick at 8.

Lowe will be a big loss and is usually worth a try or two but we have other guys like Ringrose, Isa and Henshaw as well as obviously a presumably fitter Sexton to take on that role, throw Larmour and McFadden in the mix and we have a nice mix of game breakers and system players.

McGrath is a loss, no bones about it but the way Gibson-Park is being talked about you'd swear we'd be better off picking Blackrock's u15 scrum half. Gibson-Park has struggled in games where we've played our second teams and he's had a rusty Carbery and Byrne, who has dropped a bit from his early season form lately, outside him. He's the senior halfback, and struggles with that role, with Fardy, Leavy and Conan inside him and Sexton and Isa outside him I don't see him falling too far below McGrath's level, I'd go as far to say he could be an improvement on McGrath when he was semi fit v Sarries.

Last year we played the Scarlets with this;

15. Joey Carbery
14. Adam Byrne
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Isa Nacewa (captain)
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Luke McGrath

1. Jack McGrath
2. James Tracy
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Ross Molony
5. Hayden Triggs
6. Rhys Ruddock
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Jack Conan

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss
17. Cian Healy
18. Michael Bent
19. Devin Toner
20. Dan Leavy
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Ross Byrne
23. Zane Kirchner

On Saturday we are certain to have a better front row, a far better second row, a better backrow, better halfbacks as long as Sexton doesn't return to his pre and early Lions tour form, equal centres whether its Rob or Isa and better back three options. Having taken a quick look at Scarlets they'll be down McNicholls, Jo Davies and L Williams, there's a bit of a shift in our favour in terms of Starting XVs. I don't see us hammering them out the gate but apart from a bad gut feeling nothing really can convince me that we'll lose.
 
@The Alpha Bro that is definitely probably the main worry for the Scarlets - when you factor in the players that left at the end of the last season and then those that are out injured this season (especially McNicholl and JD2), then Scarlets have definitely weakened, while (as you said) Leinster have definitely strengthened across the park.

Genuinely more buzzed about this one that the Blues' Challenge Cup semi final that I've got tickets to tomorrow :D just hope the game lives up to the hype!
 
Leinster

15. Rob Kearney
14. Fergus McFadden
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Isa Nacewa
10. Johnny Sexton (Capt.)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park

1. Cian Healy
2. Seán Cronin
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. James Ryan
6. Scott Fardy
7. Dan Leavy
8. Jordi Murphy

Replacements:

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Andrew Porter
19. Ross Molony
20. Jack Conan
21. Nick McCarthy
22. Joey Carbery
23. Jordan Larmour

Scarlets

15 Rhys Patchell
14 Leigh Halfpenny
13 Scott Williams
12 Hadleigh Parkes
11 Steff Evans
10 Dan Jones
9 Gareth Davies

1 Rob Evans
2 Ken Owens (Capt)
3 Samson Lee
4 Tadhg Beirne
5 David Bulbring
6 Aaron Shingler
7 James Davies
8 John Barclay

Replacements:

16 Ryan Elias
17 Dylan Evans
18 Werner Kruger
19 Lewis Rawlins
20 Steve Cummins
21 Aled Davies
22 Steff Hughes
23 Will Boyde

Henshaw makes that team a lot better, you need a physical presence at centre to play how Leinster do. Conan back as well is a boon.
On paper that Scarlets team doesn't look nearly as strong, but it's irrelevant at this stage. Putting it kindly Leinster don't have the fastest centres and a 9 that blows hot and cold. That's where Scarlets will have a bit of an edge. Sarries seriously struggled to make it past the Leinster centre though.
 
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Leinster

15. Rob Kearney
14. Fergus McFadden
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Isa Nacewa
10. Johnny Sexton (Capt.)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park

1. Cian Healy
2. Seán Cronin
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. James Ryan
6. Scott Fardy
7. Dan Leavy
8. Jordi Murphy

Replacements:

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Andrew Porter
19. Ross Molony
20. Jack Conan
21. Nick McCarthy
22. Joey Carbery
23. Jordan Larmour

Scarlets

15 Rhys Patchell
14 Leigh Halfpenny
13 Scott Williams
12 Hadleigh Parkes
11 Steff Evans
10 Dan Jones
9 Gareth Davies

1 Rob Evans
2 Ken Owens (Capt)
3 Samson Lee
4 Tadhg Beirne
5 David Bulbring
6 Aaron Shingler
7 James Davies
8 John Barclay

Replacements:

16 Ryan Elias
17 Dylan Evans
18 Werner Kruger
19 Lewis Rawlins
20 Steve Cummins
21 Aled Davies
22 Steff Hughes
23 Will Boyde

Henshaw makes that team a lot better, you need a physical presence at centre to play how Leinster do. Conan back as well is a boon.
On paper that Scarlets team doesn't look nearly as strong, but it's irrelevant at this stage. Putting it kindly Leinster don't have the fastest centres and a 9 that blows hot and cold. That's where Scarlets will have a bit of an edge. Sarries seriously struggled to make it past the Leinster centre though.
Scarlets having an edge in the centres? No way, Leinster are far, far better there.

Dan Jones at 10 has me mad confident, Leigh Halfpenny won't exploit Isa, and Ferg is solid af with the extra half second you get in club rugby and has plenty of help inside so he should contain Steff. We won't play nice rugby, it'll be close, but we'll win.

Sextonne at captain is strange, I thought Isa was club captain, wonder what the rationale is.
 
Scarlets having an edge in the centres? No way, Leinster are far, far better there.

Dan Jones at 10 has me mad confident, Leigh Halfpenny won't exploit Isa, and Ferg is solid af with the extra half second you get in club rugby and has plenty of help inside so he should contain Steff. We won't play nice rugby, it'll be close, but we'll win.

Sextonne at captain is strange, I thought Isa was club captain, wonder what the rationale is.
Sorry meant to say wing's. No idea why I said centres. Prolly the best centre combo in club rugby....
 
Scarlets having an edge in the centres? No way, Leinster are far, far better there.

Dan Jones at 10 has me mad confident, Leigh Halfpenny won't exploit Isa, and Ferg is solid af with the extra half second you get in club rugby and has plenty of help inside so he should contain Steff. We won't play nice rugby, it'll be close, but we'll win.

Sextonne at captain is strange, I thought Isa was club captain, wonder what the rationale is.

Actually think that's a very good move on Pivac's part! Patch has been very good at 15 this year, and the combination of him there and Jones at 10 has worked very well - especially away to Bath, home vs Toulon and in the 2nd half vs La Rochelle. Think as a starting line up it's definitely better than Patch 10, Asquith/Prydie/Varndell 14 and Halfpenny 15.

Jones might still be relatively young, but he's never looked anywhere near to being out of his depth starting for the Scarlets since making the step up as well, so not worried he's a weak link.

Also I'm still convinced Halfpenny is a better winger than fullback anyway, so looking forward to seeing him starting there is a game as big as this!

The only drawback is the Scarlets bench options to cover 10 - 15 are literally non-existent... I'm gonna assume James Davies is wing cover again, and while he did actually do a cracking job there vs La Rochelle, it did take him time to adjust - time that Leinster will take advantage of should they be forced to do that again...

The amount of re-shuffling needed if one of the centres goes down will be mad - Patch to 12, James Davies to the wing, halfpenny to fullback? Either way you're gonna have at least two players out of position...
 
It's a very good Leinster team. It's not set up for a free-flowing, throw the ball wide performance SK of we do win it'll be more like what we did to Exeter. I'd have preferred Deegan on the bench but it's hard to get too worried when you consider how good the players that are there are. Unlike others I'm not that worried about the lack of pace out wide. The Scarlets won't get anything out of them in defence especially Halfpenny on Nacewa. (Evans got a bit of joy against McFadden in the 6N if I remember correctly so I'm not as certain there.) Larmour and Carbery are there to be used if we need to chase tries late on. JGP is capable of both being really good and really bad, he's been really bad the last few weeks but it's a lot easier to be really good when you're inside Sexton.
 
Getting hyped for this, revenge is a dish best served by Isa Nacewa and we owe these chodes one.

L'Alpha Bro's list of favourite Ster players from GOAT to Cathal Marsh.

Player - 2018 rank - 2017 rank
Isa Nacewa - 1 - 1 No. 1 2016 and 2013
Garry Ringrose - 2 - 2
Leavy - 3 - 15
Ferg - 4 - 4 Number 1 2012
Sexbro - 5 - 5 Number 1 2009, 2010
Bob K - 6 - 13
Lowe - 7 - NA
Furlong - 8 - 13
Jordi - 9 - 7
Fardy - 10 - NA
Cronin - 11 - 16
Henshaw 12 - 11
Ryan - 13 - NA
JVDF - 14 - 14
SOB - 15 - 18
Ross Byrne - 16 - 19
J Larmour - 17 - NA
Healy- 18 - 20
L McGrath - 19 - 10
J McGrath 20 - 9
Porter - 21 - NA
Barry Daly - 22 - 30
J Carbery - 23 - 3
J Conan - 24 - 17
Max Deegan 25 - NA
D Kearney 26 - 21
Rhys - 27 - 22
Dev - 28 - 19
Strauss - 29 - 26
Big Bad Bent - 30 - 27
Fetish - 31 - 12
Noel - 32 - 25
Frawley - 33 - NA
A Byrne - 34 - 24
Ross Moloney - 35 - 29
Tracy - 36 - 31
Ed Byrne - 37 - Not Listed
B Byrne - 38 - Not Listed
Will Connors - 39 - NA
Josh Murph - 40 - NA
Vakh 41 - NA
Doolo - 42 - 28
Nagle - 43 - Not Listed
M Kearney 44 - Not Listed
Timmins - 45 - Not Listed
Nick Mc - 46 = 32
Cathal Marsh - Last - Last but more because he played more

Not mentioned no. 1s:
2000-04, 2007 - Dennis Hickie
2005 David Holwell
2006, 2008 - Felipe
2011 - BOD
2014-15 - Mad Dawg (2014 was a hugely controversial decision over bearded D'Arcy, this still keeps me up at night from time to time.

This is v important and you should all study the list closely, maybe get a tattoo of any, or all, former number 1's. Notice Fetish's and Carbery's big falls and Leavy's astronomic rise, critically analyse, Marsh is the only player I dislike., partly due to his laying ability, primarilty his hair.
 
Getting hyped for this, revenge is a dish best served by Isa Nacewa and we owe these chodes one.

L'Alpha Bro's list of favourite Ster players from GOAT to Cathal Marsh.

Player - 2018 rank - 2017 rank
Isa Nacewa - 1 - 1 No. 1 2016 and 2013
Garry Ringrose - 2 - 2
Leavy - 3 - 15
Ferg - 4 - 4 Number 1 2012
Sexbro - 5 - 5 Number 1 2009, 2010
Bob K - 6 - 13
Lowe - 7 - NA
Furlong - 8 - 13
Jordi - 9 - 7
Fardy - 10 - NA
Cronin - 11 - 16
Henshaw 12 - 11
Ryan - 13 - NA
JVDF - 14 - 14
SOB - 15 - 18
Ross Byrne - 16 - 19
J Larmour - 17 - NA
Healy- 18 - 20
L McGrath - 19 - 10
J McGrath 20 - 9
Porter - 21 - NA
Barry Daly - 22 - 30
J Carbery - 23 - 3
J Conan - 24 - 17
Max Deegan 25 - NA
D Kearney 26 - 21
Rhys - 27 - 22
Dev - 28 - 19
Strauss - 29 - 26
Big Bad Bent - 30 - 27
Fetish - 31 - 12
Noel - 32 - 25
Frawley - 33 - NA
A Byrne - 34 - 24
Ross Moloney - 35 - 29
Tracy - 36 - 31
Ed Byrne - 37 - Not Listed
B Byrne - 38 - Not Listed
Will Connors - 39 - NA
Josh Murph - 40 - NA
Vakh 41 - NA
Doolo - 42 - 28
Nagle - 43 - Not Listed
M Kearney 44 - Not Listed
Timmins - 45 - Not Listed
Nick Mc - 46 = 32
Cathal Marsh - Last - Last but more because he played more

Not mentioned no. 1s:
2000-04, 2007 - Dennis Hickie
2005 David Holwell
2006, 2008 - Felipe
2011 - BOD
2014-15 - Mad Dawg (2014 was a hugely controversial decision over bearded D'Arcy, this still keeps me up at night from time to time.

This is v important and you should all study the list closely, maybe get a tattoo of any, or all, former number 1's. Notice Fetish's and Carbery's big falls and Leavy's astronomic rise, critically analyse, Marsh is the only player I dislike., partly due to his laying ability, primarilty his hair.
This place gets stupider every time you attempt to contribute you complete orangutan. Agreed on Marsh though.
 
Marsh is hardly the worst player to wear the Leinster 10 shirt. Some if remember Eddie Henukai as somebody other than a commenter on the 42.ie
 
To be fair the worst person ever to represent Leinster at any level was a lad who was missing a tooth by the name of Mad Mannion for the Leinster school under 16s in a disastrous defeat to Cardiff. Was so poor they even made him give back his shorts.
 
Getting hyped for this, revenge is a dish best served by Isa Nacewa and we owe these chodes one.

L'Alpha Bro's list of favourite Ster players from GOAT to Cathal Marsh.

Player - 2018 rank - 2017 rank
Isa Nacewa - 1 - 1 No. 1 2016 and 2013
Garry Ringrose - 2 - 2
Leavy - 3 - 15
Ferg - 4 - 4 Number 1 2012
Sexbro - 5 - 5 Number 1 2009, 2010
Bob K - 6 - 13
Lowe - 7 - NA
Furlong - 8 - 13
Jordi - 9 - 7
Fardy - 10 - NA
Cronin - 11 - 16
Henshaw 12 - 11
Ryan - 13 - NA
JVDF - 14 - 14
SOB - 15 - 18
Ross Byrne - 16 - 19
J Larmour - 17 - NA
Healy- 18 - 20
L McGrath - 19 - 10
J McGrath 20 - 9
Porter - 21 - NA
Barry Daly - 22 - 30
J Carbery - 23 - 3
J Conan - 24 - 17
Max Deegan 25 - NA
D Kearney 26 - 21
Rhys - 27 - 22
Dev - 28 - 19
Strauss - 29 - 26
Big Bad Bent - 30 - 27
Fetish - 31 - 12
Noel - 32 - 25
Frawley - 33 - NA
A Byrne - 34 - 24
Ross Moloney - 35 - 29
Tracy - 36 - 31
Ed Byrne - 37 - Not Listed
B Byrne - 38 - Not Listed
Will Connors - 39 - NA
Josh Murph - 40 - NA
Vakh 41 - NA
Doolo - 42 - 28
Nagle - 43 - Not Listed
M Kearney 44 - Not Listed
Timmins - 45 - Not Listed
Nick Mc - 46 = 32
Cathal Marsh - Last - Last but more because he played more

Not mentioned no. 1s:
2000-04, 2007 - Dennis Hickie
2005 David Holwell
2006, 2008 - Felipe
2011 - BOD
2014-15 - Mad Dawg (2014 was a hugely controversial decision over bearded D'Arcy, this still keeps me up at night from time to time.

This is v important and you should all study the list closely, maybe get a tattoo of any, or all, former number 1's. Notice Fetish's and Carbery's big falls and Leavy's astronomic rise, critically analyse, Marsh is the only player I dislike., partly due to his laying ability, primarilty his hair.

Now that I'm actually awake and capable of thinking about things properly I'm shocked at the amount of effort you put into this.
 

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