Changing of the laws?

[smartcooky]

..there are some inconsistencies in the new reelase the ball carrier laws that i would like explained ..as robbing ball is the main focus of my play It annoys me that nobody has given me a thouroughly conclusive answer..i dont know how to explain it via words so i might post up a video to youtube sometime soon so i can have this clarified before the new season..

Do you you a have a few friends/team-mates with a video camera who would help you to mock up some scenarios? If so, one of the best ways is to video a walk-through of the scenario. Basically, do what it is you want to do in a game with everyone going walking pace.

Post up your video on YouTube. I am happy to cast an eye over it, and will put it up on the Rugbyrefs forum. We have a couple of high-level referees there who are happy enough to share their opinions.

 

[nickdnz]

Bargoedboy, you show your ignorence too often when talking about O'Brien.

Other than telling off Dickinson for his terrible game, can you name anything based on evidence and fact that O'Brien has done which deserves his expulsion? As smartcooky has pointed out time and time again, he works as part of a team. It is like blaming Richie McCaw or John Smit entirely for their team losing, which is rubbish. You bash POB far too often, but offer little evidence other than uninformed dribble which targets one man as the root of all problems in Rugby Laws and officiating. I suggest you read smartcookies posts carefully and if you have further questions about the system, I'm sure he would be happy to take the time and point out where you have gone wrong. I don't think there is any poster who knows as much about reffing and laws as smartcookie, so I'd listen to what he has to say.

 

[lucky number 7]

Do you you a have a few friends.

sadly not.....

ha yeah i will try rope in a few of the lads for it thanks for your help

 

[Bargoedboy]

Just out of curiosity why would NZ not want scrums? Over the last 10 years NZ have had one of the best scrums in the world - if we could get rid of anything we would get rid of lineouts

it was a figure of speech going back to 2002 and forwards when both NZ and australia both started to use scrum as a means to restart game rather than contest. NZ after getting hammerred by england at home in the scrums realised they needed to do something and started to get it back together. as for one of best scrums in world don`t make me laugh, wales have an awfull scrum yet dominated for long periods of time in recent matches. top scrums in world are from SA, England, argentina, france and as you know from recent experiance Italy.
Even Australia have made huge strides in their scrum (apart from recent injuries of course)
The point was in SH the scrum WAS undervalued, and thats where calls for change came from.

Bargoedboy, you show your ignorence too often when talking about O'Brien.

Other than telling off Dickinson for his terrible game, can you name anything based on evidence and fact that O'Brien has done which deserves his expulsion? As smartcooky has pointed out time and time again, he works as part of a team. It is like blaming Richie McCaw or John Smit entirely for their team losing, which is rubbish. You bash POB far too often, but offer little evidence other than uninformed dribble which targets one man as the root of all problems in Rugby Laws and officiating. I suggest you read smartcookies posts carefully and if you have further questions about the system, I'm sure he would be happy to take the time and point out where you have gone wrong. I don't think there is any poster who knows as much about reffing and laws as smartcookie, so I'd listen to what he has to say.

well i have pointed out that the dickinson saga should have seen Paddy Obrien sacked. lets look at that , Italy are dominating the scrums totally (contrary to NZ opinion your scrum ain`t as good as you think) and he repeatedly penalised Tialata and then give a yellow card agreed . now for another ref who has not played for years to suddennly state publicly and in defense of his own countrymen after, that dickinson was completely wrong without reveiwing the whole game with a panel, which he is supposed to do. now that is enough on its own as the damage that has done to refs who are bound to be wary when penalising NZ in the future is incalcuable.
I have also said and everyone here agrees (apart from Smartcooky of course) the breakdown is a mess, because tackle law is too complicated , well refs never had the problem before did they .
Scrums are a total mess with no one seeming able to officiate correctly on why it goes down, easily solved yet its not ! WHY , who`s job is it to educate and help refs , seemed to be allright untill last few years WHY ? what is being done ? nothing .WHYis the guy controlling refs doing a good job ? does it look like it ? NO !!!!!!!thats why i think he should go for his interference in a ref doing his job correctly , and his non interference when refs are running around like headless chickens!

 

[smartcooky]

it was a figure of speech going back to 2002 and forwards when both NZ and australia both started to use scrum as a means to restart game rather than contest. NZ after getting hammerred by england at home in the scrums realised they needed to do something and started to get it back together.

Mate, you are completely off your rocker. You are going back EIGHT years to justify sacking a Referee Manager who wasn't the Referee Manager until FIVE years ago

In 2002. New Zealand had a very good scrum, but the England scrum was better and it totally dominated EVERY scrum in the world. You are trying to rewrite history

Even Australia have made huge strides in their scrum (apart from recent injuries of course)

Now I KNOW you a bleeding looney!!

The point was in SH the scrum WAS undervalued, and thats where calls for change came from.

The scrum has NEVER been undervalued in New Zealand, South Africa or Argentina.

well i have pointed out that the dickinson saga should have seen Paddy Obrien sacked.

Not in the opinion of those who count; his employers.

lets look at that , Italy are dominating the scrums totally

Go take a look at South Africa's 55-11 win over them two weeks ago. The Springbok's scrum blew them off the park, despite Italy's illegal scrummaging technique.

(contrary to NZ opinion your scrum ain`t as good as you think) and he repeatedly penalised Tialata and then give a yellow card agreed . now for another ref who has not played for years to suddennly state publicly and in defense of his own countrymen after, that dickinson was completely wrong without reveiwing the whole game with a panel, which he is supposed to do. now that is enough on its own as the damage that has done to refs who are bound to be wary when penalising NZ in the future is incalcuable.
I have also said and everyone here agrees (apart from Smartcooky of course) the breakdown is a mess, because tackle law is too complicated , well refs never had the problem before did they .
Scrums are a total mess with no one seeming able to officiate correctly on why it goes down, easily solved yet its not ! WHY , who`s job is it to educate and help refs , seemed to be allright untill last few years WHY ? what is being done ? nothing .WHYis the guy controlling refs doing a good job ? does it look like it ? NO !!!!!!!thats why i think he should go for his interference in a ref doing his job correctly , and his non interference when refs are running around like headless chickens!

There is so much in here that is totally incorrect that it almost deserves another thread of its own.

Mate, you are obsessed with Paddy O'Brien. You will probably turn into a stalker if your sad obsession continues

 

[Darwin]

it was a figure of speech going back to 2002 and forwards when both NZ and australia both started to use scrum as a means to restart game rather than contest. NZ after getting hammerred by england at home in the scrums realised they needed to do something and started to get it back together. as for one of best scrums in world don`t make me laugh, wales have an awfull scrum yet dominated for long periods of time in recent matches. top scrums in world are from SA, England, argentina, france and as you know from recent experiance Italy.
Even Australia have made huge strides in their scrum (apart from recent injuries of course)
The point was in SH the scrum WAS undervalued, and thats where calls for change came from.

If you don't think NZ has had one of the best scrum in the world over the last 10 years you clearly don't watch much Southern Hemisphere rugby. NZ have usually had the strongest scrum in the tri-nations (yes better than South Africa, whom you seem to think has one of the best scrums in the world), and have generally been dominant at scrum time during their end of year tours. You may be basing your opinion on the match versus Italy last year, where NZ's second string forward pack was pushed around by Italy (due to a huge amount of illegal boring by the Italian props). You seem to be under the impression that there is some Southern Hemisphere conspiracy to remove the importance of scrums, based solely on the fact that one Southern Hemisphere country (Australia) has struggled with scrummaging for a few years!




well i have pointed out that the dickinson saga should have seen Paddy Obrien sacked. lets look at that , Italy are dominating the scrums totally (contrary to NZ opinion your scrum ain`t as good as you think) and he repeatedly penalised Tialata and then give a yellow card agreed . now for another ref who has not played for years to suddennly state publicly and in defense of his own countrymen after, that dickinson was completely wrong without reveiwing the whole game with a panel, which he is supposed to do. now that is enough on its own as the damage that has done to refs who are bound to be wary when penalising NZ in the future is incalcuable.
![/QUOTE]

 

[Bargoedboy]

LOOK DUMB COOKY , MAY AS WELL RESORT TO YOUR LANGUAGE AS ITS ALL YOU SEEM TO UNDERSTAND.
first off , i was replying directly to a post regarding NZ scrum , not using that post to attack paddy , get it.
If NZ had such a good scrum at this time, how come they could not compete with a 6 man scrum from england, were england that much better? they struggled against SA/Argentina and france who KNOW how to scrummage.
so you are wrong to attack my post as you had no idea like most SH refs what a bloody scrum is !

Heres another fact , australia had a crap scrum , becoming the laughing stock of the world, then Noriega took over and they used the scrum as a potent weapon on last tour. Very easy to say aussie scrum is crap when they have so many injuries, your top scrum couldn`t cope with wales and had to cheat on your own line ! and wales are hardly top draw in the scrum stakes. so your knowledge is crap !

Now lets be honest here , for once (try it you may learn something ) Paddy o brien committed a huge gaff when he picked on dickinson as it showed him to lack restraint , common sense and the ablility to use correct protocol. for that he should have been forced to resign.
I am not alone in this , just about every paper that reported on story said same thing, even his bosses refused to answer questions about saga till he had to make a grovelling apology. not everyone was convinced he got it wrong against NZ their scrum like recently against wales was wilting and strugglingto hold the italians.hence the penalties Then the card. deservedley so in most peoples eyes apart from NZ.
as for stalker bloody grow up , if you can`t deal with a little criticism dont post. Its not a given right that everyone has to agree with you mate, i certainly dont. :lol:

 

[Darwin]

Hmm... I can't seem to EDIT my posts in this thread for some reason - obviously the bottom part of last my post isn't meant to be there (as its is just a quote from another poster that I forgot to delete).

 

[smartcooky]

iwell i have pointed out that the dickinson saga should have seen Paddy Obrien sacked. lets look at that , Italy are dominating the scrums totally (contrary to NZ opinion your scrum ain`t as good as you think) and he repeatedly penalised Tialata and then give a yellow card

I take issue with this.

First off I should let you know that the Yellow Card awarded against Tialata was rescinded by the iRB disciplinary committee. Lets look at the video of the nine scrums that look place in the last 6½ minutes of that match and see why.

I will aslo explain to you exactly what the Italian tight-head prop did wrong, and why Stuart Dickinson got his scrum management completely wrong, subsequently leading to an adverse assessment from the iRB Match Assessor (now referred to as the "Match Observer") Steve Hilditch.

The times are the YouTube video times (in brackets, the elapsed match times)
LHP = Loose head Prop
THP = Tight Head Prop
I use the term "Blue" to refer to the Italian team and "Black" to refer to the New Zealand team.

VIDEO 1



First scrum @ 0:34 - (73:37)
The Blue THP (17) is bound illegally on Black LHP's upper arm, right in front of Dickinson who has a clear view. Should have been a penalty to Black under Law 20.3 (c). If he awards a penalty to Black right here, as he should have, this whole farce is over before it starts. Black LHP is correctly bound on the Blue THP's side. The Blue THP then turns left and twists -- breaking Law 20.8(g) -- and lifts Black LHP's upper arm as he does so, driving in on the Black hooker. Black LHP is till trying to bind correctly but once his arm is twisted he is forced to let go. Dickinson resets the scrum after the front rows stand up.

Second scrum @ 1:11 - (74:15)
Unfortunately we miss the engage due to poor camera work, but it appears to be a repeat. The Blue THP is again illegally bound on Black LHP's upper arm (penalty to Black not given) and again he turns left, twisting, lifting and driving across the scrum. The replay from a different angle bears this out. Dickinson then penalises Black 6 for leaving the scrum early, a marginal decision that should have been moot because he got the initial call wrong anyway.

Third scrum @ 1:56 - 75:00
Is just a another repeat of the illegal binding and scrummaging by the Blue THP....bound on the upper arm of the LHP instead of the side, and again, right in front of Dickinson, who does nothing about it. Dickinson resets the scrum.

Fourth Scrum @ 3:01 - 76:05
Ground Hog Day. Illegal binding by the Blue THP, Black LHP doing his best to maintain the bind, but the Blue THP's continual twisting to the left and lifting of Black LHP's upper arm makes this impossible. Dickinson penalises the Black LHP. He calls the Black captain over and says that "they (Blue) are driving strait, you are stepping out and around then driving down". I see absolutely no evidence of this, and there is no way Blue are "driving straight".

Fifth scrum @ 3:59 - 77:03
Engagement was too low initially. No fault here and Dickinson should have reset straight away, but instead, he allows the scrum to collapse first. This is very dangerous, and very poor scrum management by Dickinson.

Sixth scrum @ 4:50 - 77:20
Again, poor camera work doesn't allow us to see the moment of the engage, and by the time producer stops admiring the ball in the SH's hands, the scrum is already on its way down, but it is clear to me that the Black LHP is upright from the hips down and his upper body is bent over but he is trying to stay up. However, we are fortunate enough to see the replay from a different angle, and.... another Ground Hog Day. Again, an illegal bind by the Blue THP on his opponent's upper arm. Why can Dickinson not see this? Given what we have seen so far, and given that Dickinson has got every call wrong so far, Black have no confidence in him now. Tialata gets a totally unwarranted Yellow Card, which was later rescinded by the iRB Disciplinary Committee.

VIDEO 2


Seventh scrum @ 0:00 - (78:03)
We don't see the engage and the action is too far away to see clearly. But after the penalty is awarded, the replay shows that once again, Blue THP is illegally binding on the Black LHP's upper arm. This time though, Blue THP drives upwards. The Black LHP can no longer keep his bind so he shifts it to the Blue THP's hips - Its perfectly legal to alter the bind under Law 20.3 (e). The Blue THP continues to drive the Black LHP upwards, in contravention of Law 20.8(i). Nonetheless, Dickinson, who hasn't got a single call right yet, keeps his 100% record and penalises Black.

Eighth scrum @ 0:39 - (78:42)
Again we miss the engage because we are getting a replay of Nick Mallet throwing another tantrum. Nothing much here, the scrum goes down, Lots of slipping happening. The ground is starting to break up from all the unnecessary scrums. Dickinson resets.

Ninth scrum @ 1:43 - 79:07
Right from the engage, the Blue THP is bound illegally and starts driving up before the ball is even put in. By now, the Blue THP has worked out that he can cheat with impunity. He knows that Dickinson is blind to what he his doing. Scrum goes down almost straight away. Dickinson resets

Tenth and final scrum @ 2:19 - (79:39)
The ball pops out the side of the scrum before Dickinson has a chance to penalise Black for any more Blue cheating. From the ensuing play, the ball is taken into touch, where Dickinson makes his first correct call since the beginning of this farce.... he blows the full time whistle.

My conclusions
This was an utter shambles, and appallingly bad refereeing. It would be the single worst example of referee scrum management I have ever witnessed. Dickinson does not appear to see what is happening right in front of him. He becomes target fixated on the All Black front row, having convinced himself it is they who are the cause of all the problems, and he becomes obsessed with sorting THEM out.

Its no wonder Steve Hilditch gave him an adverse report. The IRB should keep a copy of this DVD and use it as a training video to demonstrate to other referees how NOT to manage a scrum.

This still is taken from the first scrum in the first
video. It shows an illegal bind by the Italian THP,
and a correct bind by the New Zealand LHP.
I have marked red dots where I would expect
the Italian THP to bind.

There is absolutely no question that Dickinson got this completely wrong.
1. Its obvious from the video analysis.
2. The Match Observer came to that conclusion too.
3. He was subsequently sent for remedial scrum management training.
4. He was not appointed to any matches in the 2010 Six Nations (first time since 2000).
5. He was not appointed to any matches in the 2010 Tri Nations (first time since 1999).
6. His has only been given one appointment this year, Argentina v France, a good test to see if he has learned anything.
7. Dickinson himself has admitted that he made a lot of mistakes at San Siro.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I take issue with this.

First off I should let you know that the Yellow Card awarded against Tialata was rescinded by the iRB disciplinary committee. Lets look at the video of the nine scrums that look place in the last 6½ minutes of that match and see why.

I will aslo explain to you exactly what the Italian tight-head prop did wrong, and why Stuart Dickinson got his scrum management completely wrong, subsequently leading to an adverse assessment from the iRB Match Assessor (now referred to as the "Match Observer") Steve Hilditch.

The times are the YouTube video times (in brackets, the elapsed match times)
LHP = Loose head Prop
THP = Tight Head Prop
I use the term "Blue" to refer to the Italian team and "Black" to refer to the New Zealand team.

VIDEO 1



First scrum @ 0:34 - (73:37)
The Blue THP (17) is bound illegally on Black LHP's upper arm, right in front of Dickinson who has a clear view. Should have been a penalty to Black under Law 20.3 (c). If he awards a penalty to Black right here, as he should have, this whole farce is over before it starts. Black LHP is correctly bound on the Blue THP's side. The Blue THP then turns left and twists -- breaking Law 20.8(g) -- and lifts Black LHP's upper arm as he does so, driving in on the Black hooker. Black LHP is till trying to bind correctly but once his arm is twisted he is forced to let go. Dickinson resets the scrum after the front rows stand up.

Second scrum @ 1:11 - (74:15)
Unfortunately we miss the engage due to poor camera work, but it appears to be a repeat. The Blue THP is again illegally bound on Black LHP's upper arm (penalty to Black not given) and again he turns left, twisting, lifting and driving across the scrum. The replay from a different angle bears this out. Dickinson then penalises Black 6 for leaving the scrum early, a marginal decision that should have been moot because he got the initial call wrong anyway.

Third scrum @ 1:56 - 75:00
Is just a another repeat of the illegal binding and scrummaging by the Blue THP....bound on the upper arm of the LHP instead of the side, and again, right in front of Dickinson, who does nothing about it. Dickinson resets the scrum.

Fourth Scrum @ 3:01 - 76:05
Ground Hog Day. Illegal binding by the Blue THP, Black LHP doing his best to maintain the bind, but the Blue THP's continual twisting to the left and lifting of Black LHP's upper arm makes this impossible. Dickinson penalises the Black LHP. He calls the Black captain over and says that "they (Blue) are driving strait, you are stepping out and around then driving down". I see absolutely no evidence of this, and there is no way Blue are "driving straight".

Fifth scrum @ 3:59 - 77:03
Engagement was too low initially. No fault here and Dickinson should have reset straight away, but instead, he allows the scrum to collapse first. This is very dangerous, and very poor scrum management by Dickinson.

Sixth scrum @ 4:50 - 77:20
Again, poor camera work doesn't allow us to see the moment of the engage, and by the time producer stops admiring the ball in the SH's hands, the scrum is already on its way down, but it is clear to me that the Black LHP is upright from the hips down and his upper body is bent over but he is trying to stay up. However, we are fortunate enough to see the replay from a different angle, and.... another Ground Hog Day. Again, an illegal bind by the Blue THP on his opponent's upper arm. Why can Dickinson not see this? Given what we have seen so far, and given that Dickinson has got every call wrong so far, Black have no confidence in him now. Tialata gets a totally unwarranted Yellow Card, which was later rescinded by the iRB Disciplinary Committee.

VIDEO 2


Seventh scrum @ 0:00 - (78:03)
We don't see the engage and the action is too far away to see clearly. But after the penalty is awarded, the replay shows that once again, Blue THP is illegally binding on the Black LHP's upper arm. This time though, Blue THP drives upwards. The Black LHP can no longer keep his bind so he shifts it to the Blue THP's hips - Its perfectly legal to alter the bind under Law 20.3 (e). The Blue THP continues to drive the Black LHP upwards, in contravention of Law 20.8(i). Nonetheless, Dickinson, who hasn't got a single call right yet, keeps his 100% record and penalises Black.

Eighth scrum @ 0:39 - (78:42)
Again we miss the engage because we are getting a replay of Nick Mallet throwing another tantrum. Nothing much here, the scrum goes down, Lots of slipping happening. The ground is starting to break up from all the unnecessary scrums. Dickinson resets.

Ninth scrum @ 1:43 - 79:07
Right from the engage, the Blue THP is bound illegally and starts driving up before the ball is even put in. By now, the Blue THP has worked out that he can cheat with impunity. He knows that Dickinson is blind to what he his doing. Scrum goes down almost straight away. Dickinson resets

Tenth and final scrum @ 2:19 - (79:39)
The ball pops out the side of the scrum before Dickinson has a chance to penalise Black for any more Blue cheating. From the ensuing play, the ball is taken into touch, where Dickinson makes his first correct call since the beginning of this farce.... he blows the full time whistle.

My conclusions
This was an utter shambles, and appallingly bad refereeing. It would be the single worst example of referee scrum management I have ever witnessed. Dickinson does not appear to see what is happening right in front of him. He becomes target fixated on the All Black front row, having convinced himself it is they who are the cause of all the problems, and he becomes obsessed with sorting THEM out.

Its no wonder Steve Hilditch gave him an adverse report. The IRB should keep a copy of this DVD and use it as a training video to demonstrate to other referees how NOT to manage a scrum.

This still is taken from the first scrum in the first
video. It shows an illegal bind by the Italian THP,
and a correct bind by the New Zealand LHP.
I have marked red dots where I would expect
the Italian THP to bind.

There is absolutely no question that Dickinson got this completely wrong.
1. Its obvious from the video analysis.
2. The Match Observer came to that conclusion too.
3. He was subsequently sent for remedial scrum management training.
4. He was not appointed to any matches in the 2010 Six Nations (first time since 2000).
5. He was not appointed to any matches in the 2010 Tri Nations (first time since 1999).
6. His has only been given one appointment this year, Argentina v France, a good test to see if he has learned anything.
7. Dickinson himself has admitted that he made a lot of mistakes at San Siro.

Brilliant Post and agree with everything said.

However ....

Fourth Scrum @ 3:01 - 76:05
Ground Hog Day. Illegal binding by the Blue THP, Black LHP doing his best to maintain the bind, but the Blue THP's continual twisting to the left and lifting of Black LHP's upper arm makes this impossible. Dickinson penalises the Black LHP. He calls the Black captain over and says that "they (Blue) are driving strait, you are stepping out and around then driving down". I see absolutely no evidence of this, and there is no way Blue are "driving straight".

Personally I don't think you got that call right. The Italy THP did start of straight as Dickinson said, he is then correct about stepping out but not correct about driving down. For me Black LHP boar in, whilst also binding on the underneath of the shirt attempting to make sure that Italy THP collapses. I do also accept that the Italian THP is also binding illegally on the arm. At the end it was half a dozen one way and half a dozen the other way on this one. Best thing Dickinson should have done was reset the scrum making clear for both props to bind correctly and to hit and drive straight.

But the rest Dickinson as you said got it in a right mess.

@Bargoedboy don't go writing in caps and calling other members names ... it's as you would say ... quite childish.

 

[smartcooky]

Brilliant Post and agree with everything said.

However .... (referring the Fourth Scrum)

Personally I don't think you got that call right. The Italy THP did start of straight as Dickinson said, he is then correct about stepping out but not correct about driving down. For me Black LHP boar in, whilst also binding on the underneath of the shirt attempting to make sure that Italy THP collapses. I do also accept that the Italian THP is also binding illegally on the arm. At the end it was half a dozen one way and half a dozen the other way on this one. Best thing Dickinson should have done was reset the scrum making clear for both props to bind correctly and to hit and drive straight.

I have reviewed the video. I am prepared to accept that this call could have gone either way. But while Dickinson may have been right about Black "walking around", they had little choice given that the Blue THP had the Black LHP under his upper arm and was lifting him up and inwards. Its a 50/50 call at best, and as you say he should have simply reset.

The following is not directed at you Cymro, but its just a general comment for anyone reading.

One of the things I tell young referees is that illegal binding is one of the the easiest things to spot when it happens on your own side of the scrum. Its right there in front of your eyes. Insisting on a long, straight bind by ALL props on the back or the side of their opponent is the best and easiest pre-emptive step a referee can take in managing the scrum. I tell them that if they want to do just one thing on a Saturday to minimise their chances of having a "bad scrum day", its to INSIST on correct binding with a long bind to the opponents back or side, and especially do not allow binding on the opponent's upper arm. Get in and show them where you want them to bind if necessary. If they won't co-operate, ping them until they do.

If all four props are made to bind in accordance with Law 20.3, especially (b) and (c), the scrum will stay up, and it is very difficult for any of them to bore-in, twist or drop the scrum. Blue 17 in those videos is able to twist only because he is being allowed to bind on his opponent's upper arm, giving him the leverage he needs to twist and pull his opponent up, across or down, wherever he likes.

I have never forgotten what the Canterbury referee's mentor, Laurie Mahoney, told us many years ago... "A properly bound scrum is more likely to stay up of it own accord". This is because a properly formed scrum, with the props' heads and shoulders above their hips, causes the front rows lock together to form an arch, the strongest geometric shape in construction. Here's a couple of photos to illustrate what I mean. The orange overlay indicates the shape of the arch.

In this photo, the blue player is bound legally, although I would like to see his hand a little higher. The black/white/yellow player is also bound legally, but I would like to see his hand up near the yellow dot

Here, the purple player is bound exactly where I want - up high on his opponent's back. However, the yellow player is illegally bound on his opponent's upper arm.

Binding on the arm allows the props to keep a shorter bind, and this gives them more ability to use the combined strength of the bicep and deltoid muscles of the bind-arm to twist and pull their opponent sideways and downwards. (Anyone who doesn't believe that can try lifting up a very heavy weight, say, off a bench with a bent arm, then see how much harder it is to lift the same weight with a straight arm).

If players were all made to bind the way the purple player is bound, then scrums would rarely collapse. A player with a bind like that will find it difficult, if not impossible, to pull his opponent down, drive him up, twist him or bore in, because he cannot use his bicep to bring force to bear in any other direction that straight towards him, and that leads to the scrum being locked together, with the "locking force" being parallel to both the ground and the direction of the front rows. The result is that the front rows will remain up and the scrum steady.

 

[Bargoedboy]

i think you see what you want to see !
when you see italian prop with incorrect binding, i see an all black not making any binding ! i reviewed this whole episode not with another ref, but with a very experianced prop to explain the whys etc, when another prop doesn`t bind and puts hand on floor should you as a ref bind the person with incorrect binding which is slightlty out in this day and age , or prop with hand on the floor , or as in one case on the other props front jersey ? simple enough to me .
now you say you know it all ( indeed you speak like you do) but another poster has also spotted something you did not, which you later agree with, and this is after you have had time to review and cherry pick your assessment.
point is there were technical infringements by both sides, but main problem was the NZ pack could not compete with italian power. which is evident all way through this period of time and indeed all through match at scrum time.
for the last 8-9mins of that game NZ cheated their way to keeping score line intact. real tradgedy is why didn`t dickinson award a penalty try, most other refs would have, against any other country. but who is boss of refs !
Your technical analysis shows your blind faith like a lot of NZ people in the all blacks, which allthough possibly the most naturally gifted team in the world, still are not the best scrummagers in sh let alone NH.
Back to scrum school for you as well my friend.
i will say this, you will not convince me that dickinson was totally in wrong, and obviously i will not convince you that the all blacks cheated in every way possible to wind time down on clock.
But the real damage has been done to international rugby reffereeing by Paddy O brien for his public attack on dickinson.
lets end this now.

 

[Bargoedboy]

reply to cymru and others, you seemed quiet when i was being insulted yet still see fit to attack my posts. read what actually happenned.

Your post is more full of holes than a 10Kg block of Emmental. I hardly know where to start!!
FFS get your facts straight!!
What the fvck would you expect an iRB spokesman to do, speak out against the policy of his employers? FFS man take some time to think about what it is you are posting before you make a complete dick of yourself on a public forum.

Then you justify rule changes on NH not being able to compete against such a fantastic game that the SH had, i could have said you were changing game because you didnt know how to scrummage which was far more evident!

The game became a mess between 2001 and 2005 when the Home Unions wanted to slow the game down, presumably because they couldn't cope with the speed it was played in the SH. You only have to look at footage from the first years of the Super 12 (1996 to 2000) to see what a fantastic and exhilarating game we had. Then the NH dominated iRB changed the tackle Law and the whole breakdown area became a mess.

The game is hard to referee because of the complexity of the Laws. Its the price we pay for having a contest for possession at the breakdown. If you want to watch simple game with simple Laws go watch Rugby Lite and Wendyball.

i was then accused of being a stalker, and then you top it off saying i want to watch wendy ball , when i want to watch real rugby union not some SH watered down version with rules dumbed down.
if you don`t want insults and want to keep a calm debate going , dont start them.:mad:so if you want me to heed your comments make them to all not one. we talked about this before.
so stick your comments where the sun don`t shine.

 

[Teh Mite]

Count to 10. then continue.

 

[SelimNiai]

I think you're just arguing for argument sake now.

Smartcooky has, basically, just proved you wrong in the excellent post above. In one call Cymro noticed it could have gone either way so it's not, as you say "spotted something you did not". More that there are 2 ways of interpretating it.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Count to 10. then continue.

Jerry ... Jerry ... Jerry ... Jerry ...

 

[smartcooky]

various blah, blah, blah

Listen you insignificant little pissant, I did NOT accuse you of being a stalker....

Mate, you are obsessed with Paddy O'Brien. You will probably turn into a stalker if your sad obsession continues

So before you fire off accusations about what I have said, make sure that you actually READ AND UNDERSTAND what I said!

As for my view of the scrum videos, my analysis came from a background of

1. Being an experienced prop, having played 10 years in Senior and Senior Reserve club rugby before retirement
2. Being an experienced Grade 2 (now called Level 2) referee, having refereed for 8 years in Senior, Senior Reserve and representative rugby before retirement due to injury (motorcycle accident)

I have also coached scrummaging for a number of High School and College 1st XV teams.

I have run my analyses of those videos past a number of people, including a former South African provincial prop who now lives in NZ and a Senior referee. I have also run it past members of an international rugby referees forum, which has a membership including English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Argentinian referees. Most are in agreement. Interestingly, the South African prop picked up the same issue that Cymro did.

Basically, I have proved you wrong conclusively.

► The fact that the iRB Disciplinary Committee rescinded Tialata's yellow card proves it
► The fact that Dickinson got an adverse report form the Match Assessor (NOT O'BRIEN!!!!) proves it
► The fact that he was sent for remedial scrum management raining proves it
► The fact that he was not subsequently appointed to any 6N or 3N matches proves it
► The fact that Dickinson himself admitted to his mistakes proves it.

So, suck it up, build a bridge, do whatever it takes to realise that YOU ARE WRONG!!!

 

[Bargoedboy]

ok gods gift to the reffing fraternity. look at law book and check every time tialat goes for bind , he doesn`t make it and puts hand on floor whilst italian quite rightly grabs jersey literally at top of arm reaching as far as he can to try and make the bind, so first offense by the rugby laws is that tialata does not bind therefore scrum cannot set and start . there in colour on youtube, and there in black and white in law book , just in case you don`t have one i copied relevant section. at best dickinson could have penalised each player alternatively, or just gone with law and penalised first offense. if you want to argue with that then you are a total ********.chuck abuse you get abuse back ok matey !!!
(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on
the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the
left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The tight head
prop must grip the loose head prop's jersey with the right hand
only on the back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the
chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition loose head prop. The
tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

ok gods gift to the reffing fraternity. look at law book and check every time tialat goes for bind , he doesn`t make it and puts hand on floor whilst italian quite rightly grabs jersey literally at top of arm reaching as far as he can to try and make the bind, so first offense by the rugby laws is that tialata does not bind therefore scrum cannot set and start . there in colour on youtube, and there in black and white in law book , just in case you don`t have one i copied relevant section. at best dickinson could have penalised each player alternatively, or just gone with law and penalised first offense. if you want to argue with that then you are a total ********.chuck abuse you get abuse back ok matey !!!
(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on
the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the
left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The tight head
prop must grip the loose head prop's jersey with the right hand
only on the back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the
chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition loose head prop. The
tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.

Could you please write in decent English, with Capital letters, proper letter spacing and use a good line break.

 

[smartcooky]

Insulting me wont change fact that;

►Tialata's yellow card was rescinded, indicating that Dickinson got it wrong,
► Dickinson got an adverse report for his poor scrum management in this match and was sent for remedial scrum training,
► Dickinson was stood down from the Elite panel and has not been appointed as referee to a 3N or 6N match since,
► Dickinson himself admitted he got it wrong!

Insulting me wont change fact that you are wrong!

You have a plainly obvious hatred of Paddy O'Brien, an unhealthy obsession with him, and seem to be trying to lay all of the ills of rugby at his door.

1. You said O'Brien is issuing Law Rulings.
- I have shown that Law Rulings in fact come from requests from National Unions - You were wrong!

2. You infer that he issues edicts to referees off his own bat.
- I have shown that in fact O'Brien works as part of a team - You were wrong!

3. You try to infer that the number of pages in the Law of the Game have increased since O'Brien took office.
- I have shown that they have in fact decreased - you were wrong!

4. You try to infer that the number of Law Rulings has increased since O'Brien took office.
- I have shown that they have in fact decreased - you were wrong!

5. You say that the ELV's was Southern Hemisphere created, and driven by O'Brien.
- I have proved that the Laws Project group has four members from each hemisphere - you were wrong!

In short, I have systematically proved you wrong at every turn, shot down every point you have made and debated you into a corner. The more you post inane unsubstantiated rubbish, the bigger the hole you dig for yourself. Give up now before I bury you completely.


NOTE: By the way, when you call me "gods gift to the refereeing fraternity", at least have the common decency and courtesy to observe the convention of capitalising "God" when you use His name, even if it is in vain!!!

Also, while you are at it, you might want to learn how to use grammar correctly i.e. full stops, commas, and capital letters at the beginning of sentences and for proper names. For someone who claims to be 47, that sort of thing should come naturally!!