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CJ Stander to retire at the end of the season

The Alpha Bro said:
You're point of view also includes that he shouldn't be welcomed back home because he played a sport in another country...

It's not a very good one...
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Perhaps. And I respect your opinion on this. The issue for me was that SA Rugby got bad press about CJ, and there has been this bad odour in the air whenever CJ Stander and SA Rugby are mentioned in a sentence, and to me, the manner in which CJ handled the matter, was that of betrayal/traitor.

He had a lot of fans when he was a bull, I was one of them! And he cut us deep. Maybe I'm taking this a bit more personal than most...
 
TRF_heineken said:
Probably because there wasn't as much competition in his position...

Just my point of view...
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Not sure if you watch the Irish team or provinces much. But I'd argue we probably close to having the greatest depth at backrow of all the developed nations. Issue was never there.
You have people like me saying likes of Rhys Ruddock or Jordi Murphy in their peak should have walked. Not because they are poor but more so far down the pecking order at Leinster.
Doesn't make them poor guys more the strength of depth in Ireland there.
CJ certainly had no gravy train there and struggled to break in to Munster initially.

He went and bought in to something here. Many South Africans left South Africa for money and well simply just returned to play international games.

The perspective is so wrong in some senses.
 
munstermuffin said:
Not sure if you watch the Irish team or provinces much. But I'd argue we probably close to having the greatest depth at backrow of all the developed nations. Issue was never there.
You have people like me saying likes of Rhys Ruddock or Jordi Murphy in their peak should have walked. Not because they are poor but more so far down the pecking order at Leinster.
Doesn't make them poor guys more the strength of depth in Ireland there.
CJ certainly had no gravy train there and struggled to break in to Munster initially.

He went and bought in to something here. Many South Africans left South Africa for money and well simply just returned to play international games.

The perspective is so wrong in some senses.
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Don't think I'll compare Ruddock or Murphy to the likes of Pieter-Steph Du Toit or Duane Vermeulen, or even Siya Kolisi or Francois Louw.
When was the last time Ireland had a flanker as the world player of the year?? or have a World Cup medal hanging around their neck?
 
TRF_heineken said:
Perhaps. And I respect your opinion on this. The issue for me was that SA Rugby got bad press about CJ, and there has been this bad odour in the air whenever CJ Stander and SA Rugby are mentioned in a sentence, and to me, the manner in which CJ handled the matter, was that of betrayal/traitor.

He had a lot of fans when he was a bull, I was one of them! And he cut us deep. Maybe I'm taking this a bit more personal than most...
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A man makes what he sees as the best decision for him and his wife believing he was undervalued in his current position, in hindsight it was totally vindicated

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I don't really care that you don't like him, I understand it to a degree. I also don't care that you don't rate him but for the majority of his international career and up until 2019 he played in a better team and more successful team than SA and one that he'd be selected for purely based on ability.

What I don't like is anyone questioning his integrity, he has it in heaps and you only have to have followed him closely for the last week to see that. He's as committed to his family as a man can be, dedicated to his work and his community and totally devout. (Not that the last part means much to me but it's important to some people) I really don't understand where your arrogance comes from in this thread to tell numerous Irish rugby fans who've seen the man up close, one who has a personal relationship with, that he lacks integrity, drive, credibility or whatever when it's incredibly clear that he doesn't. You feel that SARU were correct in telling him to get bigger, maybe they were, Stander was equally correct to get out of there though. The past 8 years, his bank account and the adoration and respect he has throughout world rugby definitely show that.
 
TRF_heineken said:
Don't think I'll compare Ruddock or Murphy to the likes of Pieter-Steph Du Toit or Duane Vermeulen, or even Siya Kolisi or Francois Louw.
When was the last time Ireland had a flanker as the world player of the year?? or have a World Cup medal hanging around their neck?
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Ironically Stander was in the backrow that absolutely dominated a South Africa team the last time the sides met featuring three of the players you listed (Louw, PSDT, Kolisi) all starting. Pretty sure SA would have loved to have the Irish backrow that day.

I genuinely can't wrap my head around you being so offended by CJ Stander that you would call him a traitor. What did he say that offended your patriotic sensibility so much? That he was deemed too small for the backrow by SA selectors so took his rugby elsewhere to play his preferred position? Was there something else he said that offended you that I've missed? Did he crap on you from a height on the flight out of South Africa? If that offends you to the extent that nine years later you come into a thread celebrating his retirement, calling him a traitor, I don't know what to say to you and I don't think you'll see reason. I can fully appreciate people disliking the project player system (which is pretty much dead in the water anyway so who cares?), but to attack the player is too far in my books.
 
TRF_heineken said:
Don't think I'll compare Ruddock or Murphy to the likes of Pieter-Steph Du Toit or Duane Vermeulen, or even Siya Kolisi or Francois Louw.
When was the last time Ireland had a flanker as the world player of the year?? or have a World Cup medal hanging around their neck?
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But sure is a World Cup medal a bench mark. Would you say an Ben Cohen was better than a Jonah Lomu?

And South Africa had 1 backrow player of the year in 2019. 1 in 2004 and I think Habanna before too.
And that is based on a good tournament as RWC is benchmark in year.

So on stats like that.
CJ has beaten New Zealand twice as a player to Pieter-Steph Du Toit's once. (Also betters Duane Vermeulen record)
Won more international games.
Lost less.
Played more.
Scored more.

Obviously he's older. But basically saying he won a RWC is not a clear sign either. Pieter-Steph Du Toit is superb player by the way I'm not comparing or saying anything better.
South Africa had a great win at RWC but what about the years between 2007 and 2019.

But part you are missing is all those South African players came to Europe for money and did loose their roots a bit. That is fact. So in your logic you'd have an issue with all them.
If SA rated CJ why didn't they cap him?
 
munstermuffin said:
Would you say an Ben Cohen was better than a Jonah Lomu?
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the rock yes GIF



I thought we were all in agreement that Balshaw was the guy from the 2003 squad that we use for these kind of statements
 
TRF_Olyy said:
the rock yes GIF



I thought we were all in agreement that Balshaw was the guy from the 2003 squad that we use for these kind of statements
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I had him but realised he was a 23 kind of guy lol.

Still Dorian West and Steve Thompson the greatest hooker due since Jemma Jamison :O
 
munstermuffin said:
But sure is a World Cup medal a bench mark. Would you say an Ben Cohen was better than a Jonah Lomu?

And South Africa had 1 backrow player of the year in 2019. 1 in 2004 and I think Habanna before too.
And that is based on a good tournament as RWC is benchmark in year.

So on stats like that.
CJ has beaten New Zealand twice as a player to Pieter-Steph Du Toit's once. (Also betters Duane Vermeulen record)
Won more international games.
Lost less.
Played more.
Scored more.

Obviously he's older. But basically saying he won a RWC is not a clear sign either. Pieter-Steph Du Toit is superb player by the way I'm not comparing or saying anything better.
South Africa had a great win at RWC but what about the years between 2007 and 2019.

But part you are missing is all those South African players came to Europe for money and did loose their roots a bit. That is fact. So in your logic you'd have an issue with all them.
If SA rated CJ why didn't they cap him?
Click to expand...
Yea Ben Cohen was and still is the greatest winger alive ever.
 
Hein, I usually agree with you on most posts, but your comments about CJ on this post leaves me speechless.......rugby is a career not a hobby. He provided the best he could for his family. Please don't make all SA supporters look bad because of a "NOTHING" incident YEARS ago man.....
 
Lourens said:
Hein, I usually agree with you on most posts, but your comments about CJ on this post leaves me speechless.......rugby is a career not a hobby. He provided the best he could for his family. Please don't make all SA supporters look bad because of a "NOTHING" incident YEARS ago man.....
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This is it. A career but CJ bought in to it at a time when he felt he had no alternative.
And equally it not a case of calling him a lesser or better person than guys who won RWC medals. They don't define any man and more so as the famous Cool Runnings saying goes "If you aren't a person without a medal, you'll never find happiness with the medal"

And argubally SA fans of all in the world will agree the journey to success is usually better than reaching the peak. Certainly can say it's true for us here in Munster.
 
munstermuffin said:
A career but CJ bought in to it at a time when he felt he had no alternative.
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Ok, i disagree with Heineken with him being a traitor, but this sort of stance is just as ridiculous. No alternative? How about playing for another club? How about not playing for a national side like most professional rugby players? Or how about him playing hooker? Creevy had played all his career as a third-row till he was told he was needed as a hooker, so that's what he did. End of. His country needed him to do something so that's exactly what he did.

You don't want to do that? Fine, but dont come telling us you had no choice or talk about patriotism or love for the country. He had a choice and he made it.

And if you make statements of the sort "he's a pro rugby player, their life span as players is short enough so that's why he played for Ireland. it was the best for him and his family", at least have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that, as stated so it should be pretty obvious, he did it because it was what's best for him, so tone down that love for country argument.
Either his motive is what's best for him or it's love for something else, you can't have it both ways.

The issue is here is not what he did. The issue here is that he is being portrayed (not by him!) as a quasi patron saint while at the same time arguing he made his choice out of self-interest. Again, you cannot have it both ways.

Given the tone some of the post have taken i want o make myself clear, again: i have no animosity towards him, quite the contrary. No traitor, broke no rules, made his choice and is happy. Kudos.

Having said that, reading some of the posts here implicitly praising his Irishness is nothing short of ridiculous.
 
Lourens said:
Hein, I usually agree with you on most posts, but your comments about CJ on this post leaves me speechless.......rugby is a career not a hobby. He provided the best he could for his family. Please don't make all SA supporters look bad because of a "NOTHING" incident YEARS ago man.....
Click to expand...
He's not speaking on behalf of others. I hope all of us here are mature and smart enough to understand that.

I mean, imagine if we were to judge all the Irish based on what munstermuffin or alpha post. Dear lord...
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
Ok, i disagree with Heineken with him being a traitor, but this sort of stance is just as ridiculous. No alternative? How about playing for another club? How about not playing for a national side like most professional rugby players? Or how about him playing hooker? Creevy had played all his career as a third-row till he was told he was needed as a hooker, so that's what he did. End of. His country needed him to do something so that's exactly what he did.

You don't want to do that? Fine, but dont come telling us you had no choice or talk about patriotism or love for the country. He had a choice and he made it.

And if you make statements of the sort "he's a pro rugby player, their life span as players is short enough so that's why he played for Ireland. it was the best for him and his family", at least have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that, as stated so it should be pretty obvious, he did it because it was what's best for him, so tone down that love for country argument.
Either his motive is what's best for him or it's love for something else, you can't have it both ways.

The issue is here is not what he did. The issue here is that he is being portrayed (not by him!) as a quasi patron saint while at the same time arguing he made his choice out of self-interest. Again, you cannot have it both ways.

Given the tone some of the post have taken i want o make myself clear, again: i have no animosity towards him, quite the contrary. No traitor, broke no rules, made his choice and is happy. Kudos.

Having said that, reading some of the posts here implicitly praising his Irishness is nothing short of ridiculous.
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But at the time he did not sign for Ireland. IRFU had no interest in him. He signed for Munster. Recruited by Munster. Solely for Munster,

No SA Club wanted him as a backrow player. Nobody said he was a Saint. More defending him being called a traitor and someone who chased money. Up to today he has never been a top paid player on IRFU books.
And yes I never once said about him being all Irish BUT he holds an Irish passport and well based my views on seeing what he did off the field away for rugby in the community. Selfless with his time, polite to all he met and improved many peoples lives by helping in various days. Even now does so much unseen for mental health services.
 
Yes but when he was growing up what country did he dream of playing for?

There is no nice way to say it but it's greed that caused him to play for Ireland. Greed for money, for top flight rugby. It shouldn't be allowed for a South African to choose to play for another country he had no links to. He held a job there, that's all.
 
living sacrifice said:
Yes but when he was growing up what country did he dream of playing for?

There is no nice way to say it but it's greed that caused him to play for Ireland. Greed for money, for top flight rugby. It shouldn't be allowed for a South African to choose to play for another country he had no links to. He held a job there, that's all.
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It's a job though, not a vocation.

Would you say the same about a kid who dreamed of being a judge in SA and ended up becoming one in Ireland?
 

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