[COVID-19] General Discussion

[duncanb]

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The process for counting in Northants which SIL is clinical lead, Mrsduncanb is collator of figures for 30k surgery and is best practice and should be followed by all surgeries in England is , a patient is counted as being vaccinated when they present themselves at vaccination point and no adverse feedback comes from the "jabber" record is then updated via pharm form which is update to system1 so if a centre is jabbing for another surgery then the pharm form goes to surgery of patients for system 1 to be updated.
System 1 is what your medical record is.
Counting is done not on request to attend but delivery amount minus left vaccine.
This is why you will have seen jabs for some non frontline staff as Pfizer needs to be done to known storage issues , rather than bin.
AZ no such issue.
Of course there maybe some surgeries in NHS that may over report but I think this would highly unlikely and if found out would undermine everything that is going well about vaccination.

 

[McTallshort]

I know it's not fashionable on here to cast criticism on the EU but they do appear to have cocked up the vaccine roll out and seem to be trying to deflect some of the blame

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sturgeon looks to be trying to stick a spanner in as well

 

[Gavin]

Is anyone else a bit confused with the reporting of the invoking of Article 16 by the EU?

'Welcome news': relief as EU backtracks on NI Covid vaccine move

Irish foreign minister warns Northern Ireland protocol ‘not something to be tampered with lightly’

www.theguardian.com

The move to activate article 16 will frustrate any effort to use Northern Ireland as a back door to bring vaccines into Great Britain.

Northern Ireland's vaccines arrive from the rest of the UK at present so those will be unaffected.

The DUP leader added: "With the European Union using article 16 in such an aggressive and most shameful way, it is now time for our government to step up.

Scrap that. The BBC had it saying that it would stop export of vaccines from GB to NI but they amended the article 3 minutes ago.

Edit.... Figured it out. Effectively the EU has said no vaccine produced in the bloc can go to Northern Ireland as it could be a back door into GB.

 

[ncurd]

I know it's not fashionable on here to cast criticism on the EU but they do appear to have cocked up the vaccine roll out and seem to be trying to deflect some of the blame

Yeah there's a certain element to that, there's also the fact AZ are supposedly going to be violation of the contract they signed with the EU. Considering the importance of the drug it's not a huge surprise they'd play hard ball we'd do exactly the same thing.

Unsure if that any of that makes it right just playing Devil's Advocate.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah there's a certain element to that, there's also the fact AZ are supposedly going to be violation of the contract they signed with the EU. Considering the importance of the drug it's not a huge surprise they'd play hard ball we'd do exactly the same thing.

Unsure if that any of that makes it right just playing Devil's Advocate.

The Germans saying they wouldn't give the AZ jab to anyone over 65 was very political

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Guess it all comes down to the exact wording on the contract - and considering AZ are happy to release the contract publicly I imagine they're in the right.
You'd imagine that the UK having a contract in place 3 months earlier would/should trump "best efforts" in one signed a quarter of a year later - that's what AZ are saying, and you'd imagine big Pharma would be pretty hot on things like that, compared to Politicians who face literally zero consequences for lying and are desperately trying to save face about how badly they've handled the vaccine rollout.


If supplying to us is in breach of the EU contract, as they claim, then surely fulfilling the EU contract would be in breach of the one signed with the UK, seeing as ours said we would have the first X amount they produced, meaning the EU one is null and void - we get the vaccines but AZ face fines or lawsuits or whatever.

 

[ncurd]

Guess it all comes down to the exact wording on the contract - and considering AZ are happy to release the contract publicly I imagine they're in the right.
You'd imagine that the UK having a contract in place 3 months earlier would/should trump "best efforts" in one signed a quarter of a year later - that's what AZ are saying, and you'd imagine big Pharma would be pretty hot on things like that, compared to Politicians who face literally zero consequences for lying and are desperately trying to save face about how badly they've handled the vaccine rollout.

Companies lie and sign contracts where they don't meet deadlines all the time. Especially deadlines they'd never thought they'd make when they signed them. I suspect both sides are correct from their interpretation of the contract, gonna be a complete cluster ****.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The process for counting in Northants which SIL is clinical lead, Mrsduncanb is collator of figures for 30k surgery and is best practice and should be followed by all surgeries in England is , a patient is counted as being vaccinated when they present themselves at vaccination point and no adverse feedback comes from the "jabber" record is then updated via pharm form which is update to system1 so if a centre is jabbing for another surgery then the pharm form goes to surgery of patients for system 1 to be updated.
System 1 is what your medical record is.
Counting is done not on request to attend but delivery amount minus left vaccine.
This is why you will have seen jabs for some non frontline staff as Pfizer needs to be done to known storage issues , rather than bin.
AZ no such issue.
Of course there maybe some surgeries in NHS that may over report but I think this would highly unlikely and if found out would undermine everything that is going well about vaccination.

I don't doubt that this is the procedure that your wife is following, I'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me at all if an alternative total is swapped in if the target is going to be missed. Quoting the number of vaccinations offered would tie in with the current party line of everything being the public;'s fault, i.e. "we offered 20m vaccines, but only 12m of you ill educated peasants have come forward, so despite us doing our job, you're prolonging the agony".

As you say, the procedure you describe should mean that the total of people who have received a vaccination should be accurate and that nobody should be getting double counted.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The stats come directly from the NHS, not from Bojo et al. though

I mean the NHS COULD fluff the numbers, but it'd look very bad on them and give the Tories an excuse to come down on them hard and sell off even more ("Oh they can't even keep track of injections, well my mate Jonty from Eton was a dab hand at Maths, I'll send him the contract")

 

[McTallshort]

Companies lie and sign contracts where they don't meet deadlines all the time. Especially deadlines they'd never thought they'd make when they signed them. I suspect both sides are correct from their interpretation of the contract, gonna be a complete cluster ****.

Not when they are dealing with governments they don't. Happy for you to show me an example otherwise

 

[ncurd]

Not when they are dealing with governments they don't. Happy for you to show me an example otherwise

Serco Track and Trace

 

[McTallshort]

Serco Track and Trace

Walked into that one

 

[ncurd]

Walked into that one

I mean live on software world I can think one government project where we didn't overpromise and underdeliver. My father has plenty of examples in manufacturing.

I'm more surprised where people actually do deliver OTIF and most of the time fudging numbers based on the original contract.


Current project (just internal deliveries) we said we'd deliver a deadline 7 months before we actually did. At the beginning of the project we were asked how much we'd miss by or if we'd be early. My estimate was out by a month from the actual date.

 

[McTallshort]

I mean live on software world I can think one government project where we didn't overpromise and underdeliver. My father has plenty of examples in manufacturing.

I'm more surprised where people actually do deliver OTIF and most of the time fudging numbers based on the original contract.


Current project (just internal deliveries) we said we'd deliver a deadline 7 months before we actually did. At the beginning of the project we were asked how much we'd miss by or if we'd be early. My estimate was out by a month from the actual date.

All true but like Olyy said who will have their contracts most tied up? AZ will be used to healthcare contracts with the EU and the UK and I would doubt they would have not done their due diligence. The EU has been several steps behind the whole vaccination process and several governments in particular Germany have come under a lot of pressure. They seem to be grandstanding now to try and save a bit a face. I suppose we are only experiencing what other EU suppliers and importers experience now we are out of the club

 

[RedruthRFC]

The stats come directly from the NHS, not from Bojo et al. though

I mean the NHS COULD fluff the numbers, but it'd look very bad on them and give the Tories an excuse to come down on them hard and sell off even more ("Oh they can't even keep track of injections, well my mate Jonty from Eton was a dab hand at Maths, I'll send him the contract")

I'm not sure what I can do to make myself clearer, but I'll have one last go. I'm not questioning the numbers being quoted at the moment, nor can I recall saying anything that could have implied this. I'm saying that the groundwork has been laid to stop quoting this number and start quoting the number of vaccinations offered if the target is missed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, mines only a hypothetical as well

My point is just that the stats are coming direct from the NHS who have no reason to lie - if the numbers were coming from Downing St. then I'd be more sceptical as they're the ones who were setting the lofty targets

 

[duncanb]

I don't doubt that this is the procedure that your wife is following, I'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me at all if an alternative total is swapped in if the target is going to be missed. Quoting the number of vaccinations offered would tie in with the current party line of everything being the public;'s fault, i.e. "we offered 20m vaccines, but only 12m of you ill educated peasants have come forward, so despite us doing our job, you're prolonging the agony".

As you say, the procedure you describe should mean that the total of people who have received a vaccination should be accurate and that nobody should be getting double counted.

Anyone can fully except your arguement on this, however sooner or later you will have to admit the figures provided are by people that want us all vaccinated not anything political.
Most NHS bodies dislike our Government so why would they prop some conspiracy theories arguement?
My own wifes surgery could vaccinate 40k in 40 days if vaccine was available. Eztrabalate that over country and UK would be vaccinated by early June.
Of course this supply cannot be provided but I'd rather in UK than anywhere else bar Israel at present.
As always others entitled their own views.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

I think the EU should be congratulated for a stunning piece of diplomacy. They've managed to get the DUP, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the UUP to agree on something.

 

[Gavin]

I think the EU should be congratulated for a stunning piece of diplomacy. They've managed to get the DUP, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the UUP to agree on something.

Some DUP MPs (Ian Paisley Jr most recently) and the TUVs Jim Allister have literally been calling on the UK government to invoke Article 16, now they are saying it's an act of hostility because the EU did it first.