ELVs - England, Ireland and Wales *OPT* out

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
I think the UK is just scared of being walloped even more than they are currently. (This is where the testier UK members get ready to post a fiery rebuke to my comments)
[/b]

Walloped? Oh totally. We saw how Ireland got hammered against New Zealand and Australia, and how Wales got stuffed when they found form in the second test. If anything, the ELV's would suit Wales, so think before making personal and offensive comments; they seem to be a common trait among South Africans. And yeh, I realise that is hypocritical and ironic in the highest possible order, so don't bother pointing it out ok? 'k.
Finally, I see us testy UK members aren't allowed to rebut such a twattish claim or else we'll be claimed fiery and out of line. Oh well, go ahead and spout rubbish, I shouldn't expect much more.
[/b][/quote]

Well, who's making "personal and offensive comments now" ay? The UK actually contains many millions of people, its not a single person, perhaps you mistook me. By "UK" i meant United Kingdom (you should know this, you live there), so really i wasn't insulting you or anyone else personally, but rather the Rugby Unions which are so backward and selfish.

Also, who said you aren't allowed to argue back? I certainly never said so. As for spouting rubbish, i feel my comments are fully justified, the Home Nations aren't even going to trial the laws after all.
[/b][/quote]
I know what I said was hypocritical, I even said so in my previous post...

"The UK actually contains many millions of people, its not a single person, perhaps you mistook me."

Fair enough, I've already said I'm annoyed that they weren't even trialled, but I'm bored of crap such as what Steve-O wrote - "How many 40+ point beatings must it take before the Home Nations see that they are being left in the dust in terms of rugby quality.
Shame..." Left in the dust in terms of rugby quality? :lol: I must be the only one who found the Premiership Final and Semi's exciting. Not to mention the drama in the European final and semi's, and quarters. I'd take watching the Heineken Cup under the old laws anyday over watching the S14 under the ELV's, so I don't really care for comments such as those where the posters' in question state their opinion as 'law'.

"Also, who said you aren't allowed to argue back? I certainly never said so."

The part where you said us testy UK members are going to post a "fiery rebuke" which in all fairness is fully justified given what you said. Perhaps I should have worded it better.

"As for spouting rubbish, i feel my comments are fully justified"

I don't see what was justified in your post. Only a bullshit claim stating the UK has pussied out of trialling the ELV's because, deep down, they know that that would only mean harder thrashings at the hands of the SH in their meetings. Seriously, even I would have liked to have seen them trialled for a season, or perhaps longer, but don't be annoying by stating something like that. It's not justified.

 

[cyRil]

Oh bleedin' 'ell it's all kicking off here!
What KZN said about the Home Unions being backward and selfish is bang on. Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Sir Speedy]

Oh bleedin' 'ell it's all kicking off here!
What KZN said about the Home Unions being backward and selfish is bang on. Couldn't have put it better myself.
[/b]

I never said any different. Saying the UK pussied out due to 'fear' of the SH isn't 'bang-on' though. Also, since you're spectating this spectacular arguement, I'll warn you now, only once: don't steal my popcorn. :angry:

 

[cyRil]

I brought my own. Carry on

 

[DC]

i think you guys are all wrong actually

i dont think it comes down to the style of game england play (even though it could and is a good arguement against it because they do play a foreward oriented game ) but i think it comes down to the fact that rugby, professional rugby in the northern hemisphere i.e. the guinness premiership is attracting more fans than ever, new fans who have just really grasped the rules of the old laws.. perhaps by implementing so many new law variations and changes they fear that it will turn the casual fan and the newcomer away?

however i do think maybe they should have been trialled but at the end of the day rugby is rugby, im so so on the ELV's i think they speed the pace of the game up but i also think it leaves the game a bit disorganized at times, more disorganized than it was under the old laws. but i wouldnt mind seeing a few of the rules like not being able to kick out when the ball is passed into the 22.. but to be honest they need to get rid of the **** about pulling down mauls, thats a dangerous idea in my opinion and if you were to pull mauls down in the northern hemisphere i believe you would possibly see more injuries because of the muddy soft pitches that are played on.

 

[BLR]

1. Im not British im Welsh (and no dont start it either)[/b]

British Isles. End Of.

The fact of the matter John O'Neill is getting upset because he is getting out-priced for Australia to have the chance to host the World Cup again! [/b]

Haha, you don't help your credibility when you come up with rubbish like that, what does J'ON have to do with anything? You have no argument.

Walloped? Oh totally. We saw how Ireland got hammered against New Zealand and Australia, and how Wales got stuffed when they found form in the second test. [/b]

5-1 World Cups? The quality of the NH is consistently behind that of the SANZAR nations, I don't think that's why the home nations refused to trial the ELV's. Basically it comes down to the prevailing attitude of the RFU since the formation of the game to refuse any change that doesn't benefit them wholly. For example the formation of Rugby League was caused by the pig-headedness of Rugby Union to give players some kind of insurance if they get injured, plus pay I spose.

The All Blacks back in the day used a 2-3-2 scrum that was tremendously effective yet it was banned as it was too difficult for the home nations to fight against. Hell, I'll can get you an article written by Spiro Zavos on this very subject if you want, basically showing the RFU are, and have always been, afraid of change as the 'old boys' have thier fingers in every pie and they are afraid this will hurt their position.

Not even trialling the ELV's after agreeing to is despicable in every way, let them stew in thier mediocrity I say.

 

[Fushitsusha]

Pussied out?

Seems like a fair description to me...

 

[DonBilly]

Guys, do you know how the IRB can sort this out?

I guess that there must be some procedure rules which exist in case of such a disagreemnt, e.g. a vote and the majority decides.

In France in principle the ELVs are supposed to be followed in the next season Top14. I wonder what set of rules will be followed for the HEC. It will be strange if some of the domestic championships use the ELVs while the H-cup doesn't.

 

[BLR]

In France in principle the ELVs are supposed to be followed in the next season Top14. I wonder what set of rules will be followed for the HEC. It will be strange if some of the domestic championships use the ELVs while the H-cup doesn't.[/b]

I assume that because the home nations are being little babies they will either be forced to play ELV's or not play at all, that's what I would do if I was the IRB.

It's about time they got tough and told the home nations to harden up and stop being douche bags.

 

[j1mb0]

I think its a pity that they're not being trialled. There were a fair few people here in oz that weren't the most ardent supporters at the beginning of the trials here in the S14, but after watching the play develop through the tournament popular support has swayed. The scrum still has a massive input into the game, strong forward play is still rewarded, and more attacking opportunities are available with the scrum offside line being back 5m.

It will be interesting to see what happens for the end of year tours of Europe by the SH teams, and even the June tours of the NH teams next year if the NH hasn't been playing under the ELV's, as by then it would have been a year since the SH played under the old laws, and there would basically be two different versions of rugby being played.

 

[Jer1cho]

Why are you all so against development of the game? For years now slow sneaky improvements and laws have been brought into the game to try and make it better to play, and better to watch.

Hell, in the 95 world cup there was no "lifting" players in the line-outs, no "crouch, touch' pause, engage" and probably the most significant, no TMO. There are many more small things added each year that we forget about eventually because we learn to adapt to it, and accept it. I think referees are controlling too many games, and believe the ELV's could help the situation in the future.

One of the reasons football is so popular i think, is because it is such a free flowing game, because of easy (and very few complicated) decisions to be made by the referees. There are also a very few number of stoppages in play. In rugby, i reckon only 8 out of 10 viewers actually know 75% of the laws. The fact that every 2 minutes it's penalty, goal kick, penalty, goal kick doesn't help either.

I want to see the game develop even more, and the ELV's already tested are being praised by players and spectators alike. I think people are just afraid of change, because they don't understand it. We here in the SH like our rugby A LOT, and we can't all be wrong can we? I'm sure we can all agree that last year's world cup final would have been a hell of a lot better if we had the ELV's in place....

 

[Prestwick]

Okay, sorry to cut short the general hysteria being whipped up here but there is nothing official about this on either the RFU, WRU, SRU or IRFU or FFR websites.

I repeat, there is no official word on the street that the NH is going to boycott the rule changes. There is nothing on the wires up here, nothing on the BBC, nothing from Mick Cleary, nada and nowt.

This is just John O'Neill making noise. The article quotes no sources at either any of the unions or clubs of the home nations and is pure speculation at the moment.

As far as I am concerned, I'll be watching the ELVs at the Guinness Premiership Twickenham Double Header on the 6th of September. The clubs are in full preparation for this. All of the GP coaches have had regular meetings on discussing safe ways of collapsing mauls and so forth. Eddie Jones (and it seems most of Bath's recent backroom conditioning staff who have jumped ship to Sarries ) are currently training his men in Portugal with the ELVs in mind.

So, can we stop this scurrilous talk about rifts, breakaways and such like which are based on the claims of a xenophobic, untrustworthy weasel of a man who has less scruples than Ebineezer Scrooge and can we get on with life please?

EDIT: as for development of the game, based on what I saw of the Tri Nations so far, it (the ELVs) have seemed to have increased the tempo of the game slightly and there are several interesting tactical quirks which have developed. For example, South Africa manning the line out with only three men knowing full well that New Zealand would be forced to put in a full complement to ensure that its fastest forwards are 10 metres away from the other side's outside-half rather than the 20 metres they would have been under the old rules. Fascinating.

So, my verdict so far is that it hasn't radically changed the game, I thus intend to watch my first two live ELV'fied games on the 6th with interest!

Further EDIT: Also, this gem from The Guardian:

O'Neill said the two matches between New Zealand and South Africa this month "had been wonderful while Australia versus Ireland and France and the All Blacks [against Ireland and England] were played under the old laws and you did not have to be Einstein to figure out which game was a far more impressive spectacle. The game in the south is not in trouble: ultimately it will catch up with the north. Then one day fans will say penalty shoot-outs are boring and not what they pay to see".

The New Zealand v South Africa games produced five tries and 18 goal-kicks, 16 of which were penalties.[/b]

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotemain'>
1. Im not British im Welsh (and no dont start it either)[/b]

British Isles. End Of.[/b][/quote]

In that case, as we still own you and the queen is still your monarch, you're also British. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

British By Birth... English By The Grace Of God

 

[BLR]

In that case, as we still own you and the queen is still your monarch, you're also British. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

British By Birth... English By The Grace Of God
[/b]

I'm about 6 or more generations removed from my Scottish heritage Cyrmo lives in Wales which is in the British Isles, question of geography. I will accept Australia is part of the 'Empire'.

Prestwick, I hope you're right about the home nations not scrapping the ELV's without trying them. As for the penalty count last week, the ref must have been on some kind of drug, most insane amount of over-reffereeing I have seen for a long long time in a game.

 

[KZNSharksFan]

As for the penalty count last week, the ref must have been on some kind of drug, most insane amount of over-reffereeing I have seen for a long long time in a game.
[/b]

I think it was more a case of small man syndrome. It's a common affliction amongst many referrees and circus folk

 

[nam97]

Further EDIT: Also, this gem from The Guardian:

O'Neill said the two matches between New Zealand and South Africa this month "had been wonderful while Australia versus Ireland and France and the All Blacks [against Ireland and England] were played under the old laws and you did not have to be Einstein to figure out which game was a far more impressive spectacle. The game in the south is not in trouble: ultimately it will catch up with the north. Then one day fans will say penalty shoot-outs are boring and not what they pay to see".

The New Zealand v South Africa games produced five tries and 18 goal-kicks, 16 of which were penalties.[/b]

[/b]

16 penalties is a pointless stat, the games were both bloody entertaining and if wasn't for the incompetent Mat Godard that tally would be halved. Don't look for pathetic excuses like that to defend you're current views on the ELV's.

 

[KZNSharksFan]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
I think the UK is just scared of being walloped even more than they are currently. (This is where the testier UK members get ready to post a fiery rebuke to my comments)
[/b]

Walloped? Oh totally. We saw how Ireland got hammered against New Zealand and Australia, and how Wales got stuffed when they found form in the second test. If anything, the ELV's would suit Wales, so think before making personal and offensive comments; they seem to be a common trait among South Africans. And yeh, I realise that is hypocritical and ironic in the highest possible order, so don't bother pointing it out ok? 'k.
Finally, I see us testy UK members aren't allowed to rebut such a twattish claim or else we'll be claimed fiery and out of line. Oh well, go ahead and spout rubbish, I shouldn't expect much more.
[/b][/quote]

Well, who's making "personal and offensive comments now" ay? The UK actually contains many millions of people, its not a single person, perhaps you mistook me. By "UK" i meant United Kingdom (you should know this, you live there), so really i wasn't insulting you or anyone else personally, but rather the Rugby Unions which are so backward and selfish.

Also, who said you aren't allowed to argue back? I certainly never said so. As for spouting rubbish, i feel my comments are fully justified, the Home Nations aren't even going to trial the laws after all.
[/b][/quote]
I know what I said was hypocritical, I even said so in my previous post...

"The UK actually contains many millions of people, its not a single person, perhaps you mistook me."

Fair enough, I've already said I'm annoyed that they weren't even trialled, but I'm bored of crap such as what Steve-O wrote - "How many 40+ point beatings must it take before the Home Nations see that they are being left in the dust in terms of rugby quality.
Shame..." Left in the dust in terms of rugby quality? :lol: I must be the only one who found the Premiership Final and Semi's exciting. Not to mention the drama in the European final and semi's, and quarters. I'd take watching the Heineken Cup under the old laws anyday over watching the S14 under the ELV's, so I don't really care for comments such as those where the posters' in question state their opinion as 'law'.

"Also, who said you aren't allowed to argue back? I certainly never said so."

The part where you said us testy UK members are going to post a "fiery rebuke" which in all fairness is fully justified given what you said. Perhaps I should have worded it better.

"As for spouting rubbish, i feel my comments are fully justified"

I don't see what was justified in your post. Only a bullshit claim stating the UK has pussied out of trialling the ELV's because, deep down, they know that that would only mean harder thrashings at the hands of the SH in their meetings. Seriously, even I would have liked to have seen them trialled for a season, or perhaps longer, but don't be annoying by stating something like that. It's not justified.
[/b][/quote]

Ok captain serious, i think you need to go for a nap :wah: . Come on, off you go, there's a good lad.
You also need to learn to discern the difference between jovial teasing and statements of fact. I was obviously joking(partially anyway) when I made that first post.

 

[Prestwick]

The point was that O'Neill was holding up the New Zealand vs South Africa game as a shining example against "penalty shoot-outs" when for the most part, there were more penalties in the first round of the Tri Nations than in the two England vs New Zealand games.

Read the Guardian quote again, properly, and you'll see what I mean.

My view on the ELV hasn't changed: that I've found my space on the fence and I'm sticking to it! That press cutting had nothing to do with my views on the ELVs, it was more a reference to how much John O'Neill talks out of his arse. He had a million high scoring, low penalty, Super 14 ELV games to choose from and he decided to contradict himself by chosing a low scoring, high penalty and poorly reffed Tri-Nations game? :huh:

As for the ref, I'd put it down to "man who cannot swim thrown in deep end" syndrome. Poor guy was so nervous about making a mistake he ended up making loads by just stopping the game every five seconds.

As for the news on the so called 'rift' it seems to be emerging that the RFU & WRU specifically have not yet agreed on whether to implement the part of the agrement stipulating that the most controversial ELVs be "trialled in a major NH cup competition".

Well, there are only three major cup comps up here: the HEC, the ECC and the EDF (paper) Cup. Thus, it looks like the RFU & WRU drew the short straw and are dragging their feet.

However, there is no suggestion that the ELVs period are off. This is just speculation and frankly fear mongoring by the SH press. There is nothing about it up here but obviously, someone 10,000 miles away editing stuff.co.nz knows more about the inner workings of the RFU than some of the most seasoned rugby hacks of the English press.

 

[Cymro]

<div class='quotemain'>
1. Im not British im Welsh (and no dont start it either)[/b]

British Isles. End Of.

The fact of the matter John O'Neill is getting upset because he is getting out-priced for Australia to have the chance to host the World Cup again! [/b]

Haha, you don't help your credibility when you come up with rubbish like that, what does J'ON have to do with anything? You have no argument.
[/b][/quote]

******** sitting and watching this pile of gash getting spoken by the 'Great and Al Mighty' SH nations

Yes well done for getting the map out and telling me that I allready know, I dont regard myself as being British, even though I was born and raised technically in Wales which is in Great Britain, so unfortunatly for you, you are wrong! End Of!

What makes me laugh is the actual fact I have an argument and you fail to recoginse that your great John O'Neill did actually say this and it seems that you have lost any creditbility for not seeing this.

Oh and for those who say the the ELV's were not trialled in the UK, im 90% they were trialled in some games in England! (Note: Not big games some minor club games!)

 

[BLR]

Yes well done for getting the map out and telling me that I allready know, I dont regard myself as being British, even though I was born and raised technically in Wales which is in Great Britain, so unfortunatly for you, you are wrong! End Of!

What makes me laugh is the actual fact I have an argument and you fail to recoginse that your great John O'Neill did actually say this and it seems that you have lost any creditbility for not seeing this.[/b]

British does not mean English, you cannot just renounce the fact Wales is in the British Isles. You can renounce your Englishness as that is incorrect, you cannot renounce your Britishness as you would need to say you are no longer Welsh.

O'Neill is a douchebag, I am saying to not listen to what he says, his comments don't represent outside of NSW most of the time, let alone the rest of SANZAR.