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England 6 Nation squad 2024

Scotland was always going to be the season defining game and the season is now defined.

I feel sorry for Borthwick in the sense that he's had to deal with a lot of retirements, injuries and departures to France. However I didn't feel he was the right man for the job, still don't and he just seems a bit confused.

Now likely to finish behind Sco, Fra and Ire. How many of our players would those teams want?

In the front row Marler might make the Scottish team but that's about it. George encapsulates some of our problems well - he's a good guy who's enduring a terrible personal period, for which he gets everyone's total sympathy. But away from that - he'd been overtaken by LCD pre injury and while Dan's a little way off, you can see why SB's interested in him. Playing OK, but past his peak. He has no captaincy experience and I'm pretty sure wouldn't make the Irish, French or Scottish teams.

In the row Martin might be of the most interest. Itoje and Chessum might occasionally appeal but neither make a compelling case. I like a lot about Chessum, but would be locking him in the weights room over the summer.

Back row isn't balanced. Roots isn't of the required standard. Underhill is but he's not quite at full throttle. Earl's going well but wouldn't make the Irish or French teams at 8 - where he eventually fits in will be interesting. We have players to return / develop who will make this unit stronger.

9's been an Achilles heel for years. Look at the influence Dupont, JGP and even White have on their teams. JVP and Mitchell have shown glimpses but nothing sustained. Maybe only Ita might consider one of our 9s.

At 10, Ford's right out of form. I don't think Ita would consider him, maybe only Wal might, but he'd be of no interest to Ire, Fra or Sco.

In the centres Aki, Tuipolotu and Danty are all powerhouses. North for Wal too. Lawrence isn't quite that type, but he's better than he looked yesterday. Manu was a game changing powerhouse but isn't now, although could see him lining up alongside Lawrence next time out. Midfield still a mess though.

On the wings, the top 3 have Penaud, McVdM and Lowe all of whom can be match winners in their own ways - we just haven't had that since peak May and Watson. IFW looks like he's got something about him but he's still in short pants at club level, let alone internationally. Freeman also has potential.

Furbank's selection yesterday was odd. Steward's fine and has a point of difference. Doesn't have Keenan's all round skill set, but put a semi coherent back line around him and we'll see more of the attacking game of which he's quite capable. If 15 is a problem that needs fixing it's the least of them.

There's plenty of talent coming through - in some positions - but it'll be a while before we see the real benefits of those. Also the issue of continuity - Ire / Sco and Ita have major concentrations of their squad in one or two clubs while peak Fra usually have a large Toulouse representation. Our 23 yesterday had to meld 5 Sarries, 4 from Bath, 3 from each of Saints, Quins, Chiefs and Tigers plus a Shark and a Bear.

Not hopeful of seeing major improvement any time soon.
I agree with you that team selection is all over the place. I don't agree that Scotland have vastly superior quality all over the park.
What Scotland are able to do is get their players to play to their maximum ability for their country. England can't their players to play at 75%. If I was a club chairman, would I have any of that Scottish tight 5 over their English counterparts, you could make a case for Fagerson although that would be a close call.
I don't think it's the Ashton era where you could see their was simply a lack of talent. The talent is their to be competitive against most sides
The issue here is a mental issue, poor, inconsistent team selection and players that clearly don't know what they should be doing.
When was the last time we had a reputable attack coach for more than half a season ?
 
Scotland was always going to be the season defining game and the season is now defined.

I feel sorry for Borthwick in the sense that he's had to deal with a lot of retirements, injuries and departures to France. However I didn't feel he was the right man for the job, still don't and he just seems a bit confused.

Now likely to finish behind Sco, Fra and Ire. How many of our players would those teams want?

In the front row Marler might make the Scottish team but that's about it. George encapsulates some of our problems well - he's a good guy who's enduring a terrible personal period, for which he gets everyone's total sympathy. But away from that - he'd been overtaken by LCD pre injury and while Dan's a little way off, you can see why SB's interested in him. Playing OK, but past his peak. He has no captaincy experience and I'm pretty sure wouldn't make the Irish, French or Scottish teams.

In the row Martin might be of the most interest. Itoje and Chessum might occasionally appeal but neither make a compelling case. I like a lot about Chessum, but would be locking him in the weights room over the summer.

Back row isn't balanced. Roots isn't of the required standard. Underhill is but he's not quite at full throttle. Earl's going well but wouldn't make the Irish or French teams at 8 - where he eventually fits in will be interesting. We have players to return / develop who will make this unit stronger.

9's been an Achilles heel for years. Look at the influence Dupont, JGP and even White have on their teams. JVP and Mitchell have shown glimpses but nothing sustained. Maybe only Ita might consider one of our 9s.

At 10, Ford's right out of form. I don't think Ita would consider him, maybe only Wal might, but he'd be of no interest to Ire, Fra or Sco.

In the centres Aki, Tuipolotu and Danty are all powerhouses. North for Wal too. Lawrence isn't quite that type, but he's better than he looked yesterday. Manu was a game changing powerhouse but isn't now, although could see him lining up alongside Lawrence next time out. Midfield still a mess though.

On the wings, the top 3 have Penaud, McVdM and Lowe all of whom can be match winners in their own ways - we just haven't had that since peak May and Watson. IFW looks like he's got something about him but he's still in short pants at club level, let alone internationally. Freeman also has potential.

Furbank's selection yesterday was odd. Steward's fine and has a point of difference. Doesn't have Keenan's all round skill set, but put a semi coherent back line around him and we'll see more of the attacking game of which he's quite capable. If 15 is a problem that needs fixing it's the least of them.

There's plenty of talent coming through - in some positions - but it'll be a while before we see the real benefits of those. Also the issue of continuity - Ire / Sco and Ita have major concentrations of their squad in one or two clubs while peak Fra usually have a large Toulouse representation. Our 23 yesterday had to meld 5 Sarries, 4 from Bath, 3 from each of Saints, Quins, Chiefs and Tigers plus a Shark and a Bear.

Not hopeful of seeing major improvement any time soon.
Season is indeed defined, and much as expected. Disappointing, but exactly what we'd expect from Sniff Bostik.

I feel we'll end up with a much better tight five than we have at the moment in three or four years' time. There are enough exciting talents coming through that we can afford a few not to progress.

The back row for today's A game looks better, both individually and as a unit, than the one selected for the Scotland game.

We could have had White (or Warr) but have chosen not to.

I do fear we're missing Marcus Smith; surely M and F Smith is the way forward.

I'm not sure throwing Lawrence back into an international on recovery from injury was particularly fair; I reckon that was his worst game for England, though some of the passes he received didn't help. Slade was pretty anonymous too.

Daly didn't play badly butthere was no danger of his spotting the Feyi-Waboso line for the try; both wingers were lined up on the blindside outside FW when he scored.

At fullback, it looked like SB was actually trying to develop another player, which is encouraging; the snag is that Steward was playing quite well and even posed some sort of attacking threat in the 6N so far. Picking a less experienced player probably meant that there was no chance of IFW starting over Daly.

All in all, another couple of drubbings probably coming up and Bostik's 'we've won 8 of the last 9', now down to 7/9, will be looking at 5/9 as we play more Tier 1 teams. It'll probably be down to 3/9 by the end of the summer...
 
Chatting with a friend this morning. Both pondering if this ditching the players union and setting up god knows what it's called is an issue. From what i can tell the main drivers of the group aren't playing particularly well. (who is) but are coasting.

The players don't look particularly happy. Other than Earl who runs around as happy as a dog with two d!cks at the best of times.

Also if Farrell was a driver of standards, love or hate him i don't think we'd be as poor in the basics. He's the only England player who's come out of this six nations well and must be p!ssing himself.
 
We're being insanely nice I feel in here. We're staring down the barrel of a 4th in 5 years 2/5 6 nations result. We could be on the end of an absolute hiding with 2 40pt losses, and we aren't showing any progress at all.

We look poorly coached, and a lot, a lot of players being picked on reputation. Do we have a counter attack of note? Do we offload... ever? 19 games into the borthwick era and it's perfectly acceptable to ask if he's the man or not.
 
Also if Farrell was a driver of standards, love or hate him i don't think we'd be as poor in the basics. He's the only England player who's come out of this six nations well and must be p!ssing himself.

Arundell, Marchant, J Willis and others must all be feeling fairly content too.

You do have to wonder if there's something not right in the set up though. You can understand players in the later stages of their careers chasing the cash, but it was Arundell that really rang the alarm bells. But it's never great working for a boss who's palpably out of their depth.
 
Arundell, Marchant, J Willis and others must all be feeling fairly content too.

You do have to wonder if there's something not right in the set up though. You can understand players in the later stages of their careers chasing the cash, but it was Arundell that really rang the alarm bells. But it's never great working for a boss who's palpably out of their depth.
The money to stop players moving to France is one reason Borthwick being sacked is financially challenging.
 
England A > England First team.

You can't read too much into it as it's Portugal and not a full strength one at that but basic skills have been much better than yesterday.

I dare say this scratch 23 would have caused Scotland more problems yesterday.
 
Last year was our worst ever points difference in the 6N and our first negative one. Borthwick could be on course to take that worse record, from himself. He's not only setting worse records, he's beating his own previous worse records.
 
I'm not sure points difference is a decent metric when you're trying to implement a new defensive setup.
 
I'm not sure points difference is a decent metric when you're trying to implement a new defensive setup.
Maybe not but when the coach sets the worst record one year and potentially the next year sets an even worse record, it's not exactly a sign of progress. I thought last year was supposed to be about nailing down the basics, yet they are the worst they've ever been in my lifetime. This year it was about nailing down the defence, which looks like it's on course to be the worst it's ever been in my lifetime.

At some point as coach you need to actually start delivering results. We are over a year into Borthwicks term and seem to be going backwards. If he doesn't deliver in the next year then we are over half way through the development cycle and just about beginning to sort out the absolute basics. That simply isn't good enough at international level.
 
The issues are beyond the defensive system. Yes England might be conceding more points whilst implementing a new system, but they are scoring less too. You can't excuse it all by saying new coach, new system, new players.

I personally don't have time to find out, but I wonder how other stats compare between games in terms of handling errors, clean line breaks, dominant tackles etc...

I'd be very curious to see in what areas we have improved if any.
 
Just had a look at our team for the equivalent fixture last year.

Four of yesterday's pack started:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt

And none, yes, NONE, of the backs:

JvP
Smith
OHC
Farrell
Marchant
Malins
Steward

And just 3 off the bench:

M Vunipola
Walker
Cole
Isiekwe
Earl
Youngs
Lawrence
Watson

You can't do anything with that lack of continuity. Either then, now, or both SB's judgement has been flawed.

Just 3 of the Scottish pack started but, crucially, from an attacking viewpoint, the only change in their backline was Kinghorn in for Hogg which was probably an upgrade.
 
Borthwick out demoted!

We need a head coach. Borthwick seems like a brilliant forwards coach.

I hate to say it* but, given RFU self imposed constraints, Baxter in!


* It would gut my beloved Chiefs
 
Just had a look at our team for the equivalent fixture last year.

Four of yesterday's pack started:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt

And none, yes, NONE, of the backs:

JvP
Smith
OHC
Farrell
Marchant
Malins
Steward

And just 3 off the bench:

M Vunipola
Walker
Cole
Isiekwe
Earl
Youngs
Lawrence
Watson

You can't do anything with that lack of continuity. Either then, now, or both SB's judgement has been flawed.

Just 3 of the Scottish pack started but, crucially, from an attacking viewpoint, the only change in their backline was Kinghorn in for Hogg which was probably an upgrade.
Surely that should be the definition of starting afresh, although Borthwick seems to go back to old players
 
Can we bring Shaun Edwards in to replace Borthwick if France sacks Galthie and overhauls their personnel?
 
I know SB wouldn't have listened to him but still annoyed we never went for Blackett as attack coach, would've been much cheaper than Wigglesworth and has much much more experience

Still think we should've gone for Forshaw > Sinfield as well (same reasons) but ho hum

Good chance Felix Jones comes good with time, but worry he's a bit too similar to Borthwick - every time you hear the players talk about him they talk about his meticulous preparation, his clips, his spreadsheets, his presentations, how nice he is etc. etc. obviously that's led him to become a very good and accomplished coach but does that need backing up by having a Rassie setting the tone?

Feel like the coaching staff is missing some bite - who's reading them the riot act?
We've plenty of good cops but where's the bad cop?
 
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