[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[goodNumber10]

I agree with your last point and I know what you mean. I think it is good for have different options in the squad and as much as I prefer a back line run by Ford I do and can see the tactical advantage of having Farrell as an alternative option.

That said I think we are watching different sports as I have only ever seen Farrell play flat a handful of occasions for England. Probably more for club but I would say his default is in the pocket. I think he is most comfortable there.

I would say Ford plays a flatter game generally speaking and does it much more regularly than Farrell for both club and country. Maybe I am missing something but it is commented on and seems to be a general thought that he is a good decision maker in traffic eluding to the fact that he gets in back rowers faces often!

As you say he uses Eastmond out the back but whilst doing that using big runners (Burgess included) as decoys... Or using Eastmond as the decoy!

Re: Joseph I do believe Daly, although without that incredible step of Joseph's, is a similar type of player with an outside break and searing pace. He has a great footballing ability to boot but think he has been dropped from the squad because, rightly or wrongly, defensive qualities of others are superior. I just hope Slade gets that squad spot now.

Well the issue is always going to be speed of ball, no 10 will pay flat off slow ball, and i believe Farrell has truly been shovelled some rubbish over the last few years.

When our pack has created go forward ball he's played flat.... France last year, Burrell's try is a great example of him taking it flat, delaying the pass.

I think the point of difference is that people mistake Ford attacking the line for playing flat, it's not the same thing.

Off things like lineouts etc... Farrell will travel and pass right on the gain line, if the ball is moving forward on phases he will also do that, if its rubbish he drops to the pocket like most 10's will.

Ford, plays a bit deeper than Farrell, but importantly he's a two/three touch fly half, he follows the ball. He's a better reader of the game than Fazlet no two ways about it and you'll often see him passing under extreme pressure just by nature of where he ends up in the flow of moves.

Just my opinion mind, and i'd rather have the headache over which quality fly half than be looking for a fly half.

I don't get the constant berating of Farrell, he's a quality 10, as is Ford, why people feel the urge to rank them is beyond me... Pick the one that fits the game plan.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well my personal view is that Farrell is not a creator, he relies a lot on other people being able to perform certain duties and cannot do much himself. Ford comes across as a Flyhalf who can create more opportunities and put people into space better. In a team with little creative talent, Ford is needed or the attack becomes non-existant. I think we had that in 2013. In a team with more creative players like Joseph and a good 12, Farrell can concentrate on other aspects of the game.

I'd still rate Ford over Farrell and think he has a higher potential than Farrell too. The problem with Farrell is he has been in England setups which were absolutely clueless in attack, something he was incapable of fixing. Ford has been in one of the most fluent attacking England sides we have seen in a while.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Well my personal view is that Farrell is not a creator, he relies a lot on other people being able to perform certain duties and cannot do much himself. Ford comes across as a Flyhalf who can create more opportunities...

Yes. I do not disagree with anything you've said here.

and put people into space better.

Not always. Farrell has a brilliant looping pass and an ability to whip it to a crash ball or slicing centre very quickly. This doesn't mean he is in space and has offloaded for a try but the ability to do that has been honed over the year. He reads the game in a very different way to Ford, often reading his own team rather than the opposition. This can allow him (as GN10 said, on front foot ball) to put people into space.

 

[TobesHodges]

Well my personal view is that Farrell is not a creator, he relies a lot on other people being able to perform certain duties and cannot do much himself. Ford comes across as a Flyhalf who can create more opportunities and put people into space better. In a team with little creative talent, Ford is needed or the attack becomes non-existant. I think we had that in 2013. In a team with more creative players like Joseph and a good 12, Farrell can concentrate on other aspects of the game.

I'd still rate Ford over Farrell and think he has a higher potential than Farrell too. The problem with Farrell is he has been in England setups which were absolutely clueless in attack, something he was incapable of fixing. Ford has been in one of the most fluent attacking England sides we have seen in a while.

I still will go back to the Fact, that Ford hasn't played enough "Back Foot" rugby and when he has "Ireland - Sarries Final - French Teams in Champs Cup" he hasn't done well. A part of his game if he can improve i will rate him far beyond Farrell, it worries me in knockout rugby (vs SA,NZ,Aus,IRE) where Ford isn't going to get the Arm Chair ride he's had for the last 2 years, IMO it's a Worry, but im happy that Farrell will be on the bench if it does happen, its good we have 2 contrasting 10's for different situations..

 

[Wendigo7]

Well the issue is always going to be speed of ball, no 10 will pay flat off slow ball, and i believe Farrell has truly been shovelled some rubbish over the last few years.

When our pack has created go forward ball he's played flat.... France last year, Burrell's try is a great example of him taking it flat, delaying the pass.

I think the point of difference is that people mistake Ford attacking the line for playing flat, it's not the same thing.

Off things like lineouts etc... Farrell will travel and pass right on the gain line, if the ball is moving forward on phases he will also do that, if its rubbish he drops to the pocket like most 10's will.

Ford, plays a bit deeper than Farrell, but importantly he's a two/three touch fly half, he follows the ball. He's a better reader of the game than Fazlet no two ways about it and you'll often see him passing under extreme pressure just by nature of where he ends up in the flow of moves.

Just my opinion mind, and i'd rather have the headache over which quality fly half than be looking for a fly half.

I don't get the constant berating of Farrell, he's a quality 10, as is Ford, why people feel the urge to rank them is beyond me... Pick the one that fits the game plan.

Thank you. Exactly as I see it.

 

[Raggs]

I still will go back to the Fact, that Ford hasn't played enough "Back Foot" rugby and when he has "Ireland - Sarries Final - French Teams in Champs Cup" he hasn't done well. A part of his game if he can improve i will rate him far beyond Farrell, it worries me in knockout rugby (vs SA,NZ,Aus,IRE) where Ford isn't going to get the Arm Chair ride he's had for the last 2 years, IMO it's a Worry, but im happy that Farrell will be on the bench if it does happen, its good we have 2 contrasting 10's for different situations..

When was the last time that Farrell played on the back foot? For England the last time our pack was smashed was 30-3, but that was a very long time ago and not worth judging Farrell on now.

Perhaps the Saracens vs Toulon HC final? We know how that finished.

Anyway, not going back to that argument.

As to the squad, it looks very much like 2nd choice in almost every position, with mostly the bench coming on to fight for places. The shirt is for the starting XV to lose in effect. Perhaps Clark, Kruis, and obviously not a wing, in the same position.

As for Clark being the same as our other flankers, what's the problem? Consistency is useful. Kvesic is a great player, but we'd likely have to change our playing style to accommodate him. I don't think that would be a bad thing btw, but can really understand favouring like for like options if the quality is there.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Having Clarks first cap now does make me wonder about the lack of depth Lancaster has created at flanker.

8 is covered well giving game time to both binny and Morgan but at flanker we have wood, Haskell and robshaw.

I'm not counting croft as he is a wing who is always injured.

Lancaster really should have rested robshaw at some point and blooded either Clark or kvesic in a 6 nations game rather than the non challenge game in Argentina.

 

[Peat]

As for Clark being the same as our other flankers, what's the problem? Consistency is useful. Kvesic is a great player, but we'd likely have to change our playing style to accommodate him. I don't think that would be a bad thing btw, but can really understand favouring like for like options if the quality is there.

The concern - well, my concern - is that we're giving gametime to a player who'll probably never surpass Wood as an international, based on a look at their attributes, and also won't offer us the other attributes we badly need in our flankers that we're not getting from the current players. If we need to change our playing style to accommodate one of the other players, then we need to change our playing style.

However - I can totally understand wanting a like for like replacement for a player, it does make sense, and changing the plan at this point before the World Cup isn't ideal*. But then Robshaw, Wood and Haskell aren't a million miles away from each other, particularly in England's game plan.

While I'll freely admit to wanting Clark to fail, and fail hard, if he can play more intelligently than Wood and Haskell, and maybe be more active at the breakdown, I might have to eat my words a little, and that would be good for England.


*please no comments about 'why didn't we change earlier' - that's a very dead horse.

 

[goodNumber10]

When was the last time that Farrell played on the back foot? For England the last time our pack was smashed was 30-3, but that was a very long time ago and not worth judging Farrell on now.

Perhaps the Saracens vs Toulon HC final? We know how that finished.

Anyway, not going back to that argument.

Maybe not back foot, but he's certainly been in England teams that have been struggling to assert themselves over their opponents, and has been shovelled some static garbage as a result (but obviously that is his fault).

I don't agree that the starting 15 is already agreed, I think we'll see Fazlet and Ford interchange more than people think.

 

[Raggs]

Not asserting ourselves and being on the back foot aren't quite the same though are they.

As to the starting XV, I agree. I believe that players like Mako and Farrell are potentially playing to put serious pressure on the normal starters.

 

[arry nordy key]

Not asserting ourselves and being on the back foot aren't quite the same though are they.

As to the starting XV, I agree. I believe that players like Mako and Farrell are potentially playing to put serious pressure on the normal starters.

I'd add both wingers (3 way tussle) and Morgan to that mix.

 

[TobesHodges]

I'd add both wingers (3 way tussle) and Morgan to that mix.

I'd player Morgan over Billy.

 

[Raggs]

I believe Nowell is locked in. May and Watson are fighting for that 2nd starting shirt I reckon.

If Morgan has a truly sensational game against France, maybe he could seriously push BV, but I think for now he simply needs more game time, and isn't going to be competing too much, great option off the bench due to his footwork and lines. Always felt bosh is better to start with to tire people out, but you want footwork to finish, when players can still get in the way of a lump, but struggle to move fast enough to catch someone more agile.

BV has apparently dropped 7kg in this training camp...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I believe Nowell is locked in. May and Watson are fighting for that 2nd starting shirt I reckon.

If Morgan has a truly sensational game against France, maybe he could seriously push BV, but I think for now he simply needs more game time, and isn't going to be competing too much, great option off the bench due to his footwork and lines. Always felt bosh is better to start with to tire people out, but you want footwork to finish, when players can still get in the way of a lump, but struggle to move fast enough to catch someone more agile.

BV has apparently dropped 7kg in this training camp...

Maybe at 7kg lighter they will use him at 6 and Morgan (who can jump) at 8 as the 3rs line out option.

 

[Raggs]

Lancaster mentioned he fancies trying it in one of the warmups. I do hope so.

 

[TheSaffycen]

How has BV lost 7kgs ! Has he turned Vegan ? Actually he hasn't because if he had he would have told everyone by now...

 

[Raggs]

It's been how many weeks they've been in camp? Altitude helps burn fat too. Doesn't seem that ridiculous for someone with plenty of spare weight to manage it.

 

[TheSaffycen]

It's been how many weeks they've been in camp? Altitude helps burn fat too. Doesn't seem that ridiculous for someone with plenty of spare weight to manage it.

It was meant to be more a joke about how vegans have to tell everyone about it.

 

[ZeroTwo]

How has BV lost 7kgs ! Has he turned Vegan ? Actually he hasn't because if he had he would have told everyone by now...

Yeah can't have been crossfit either by the same logic.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It was meant to be more a joke about how vegans have to tell everyone about it.

I'm a vegan and I take offence to that.