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England Rugby 2018/19 Thread

ragerancher said:
The Vellacott one was my favourite. A guy born in England, raised in England, went through an English academy and playing for an English club but represented Scotland at age grade is therefore us "poaching". I remember a Welsh person I was talking to couldn't get his head around the fact that, by that logic, Wales poached Moriarty from England.

There's always the trump card played in these situations / any situation where a double standard is applied. England have a greater population and finances therefore you shouldn't need to poach but poor wee Wales and Scotland with the population the size of a modest village need to scrounge around for every eligible player they can!
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Moriarty grew up in Wales and only moved to England when he was 18, for some reason there is a myth that he he was English through and through till Wales picked because of his dad. When in reality he only moved and started in England when his dad got a job at Hartpury college and he went to study.Although I'm not he if he is able to read or write.
I don't agree with Wales picking players like Holmes, Francis or Anscombe but those are the rules and I will not begrudge any team playing by the rules, be it a Tier 2 nation, Scotland, England or NZ. What I don't understand is some of the English's attitude thinking they are above it, yet have done the same with the likes Shields and Ben Teo.
 
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MikeTheNative said:
Moriarty grew up in Wales and only moved to England when he was 18, for some reason there is a myth that he he was English through and through till Wales picked because of his dad. When in reality he only moved and started in England when his dad got a job at Hartpury college and he went to study.Although I'm not he if he is able to read or write.
I don't agree with Wales picking players like Holmes, Francis or Anscombe but those are the rules and I will not begrudge any team playing by the rules, be it a Tier 2 nation, Scotland, England or NZ. What I don't understand is some of the English's attitude thinking they are above it, yet have done the same with the likes Shields and Ben Teo.
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While there maybe a few people who think England are above it, most people, especially on here do not. We don't like it either, especially as it's leading to players being capped early, just to secure them, even if they aren't ready for that level in case another country tries to cap them first. Also your example of Te'o and Shields isn't very good, because these are two that are already in the prime of their careers and not been picked. NZ may have called up Shields, but only looked like doing it once the England rumours were around. The bigger issue is capping these young players early.

What would be good is to get stats on players who get capped early and see how often they play after their first cap, that would show which countries genuinely pick them to play and which just want to cap them for the future.
 
MikeTheNative said:
Moriarty grew up in Wales and only moved to England when he was 18, for some reason there is a myth that he he was English through and through till Wales picked because of his dad. When in reality he only moved and started in England when his dad got a job at Hartpury college and he went to study.Although I'm not he if he is able to read or write.
I don't agree with Wales picking players like Holmes, Francis or Anscombe but those are the rules and I will not begrudge any team playing by the rules, be it a Tier 2 nation, Scotland, England or NZ. What I don't understand is some of the English's attitude thinking they are above it, yet have done the same with the likes Shields and Ben Teo.
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I agree what you say mostly, but to single out Shields? Let's forget about Teo, wish he wasn't picked for England.

Shields may not be seen as English, but having English parents is defined in most sports as English. How many people in the Uk do you think identify themselves as a different nationality even though they were born here with migrant parents? I expect the answer is quite large.

No one thinks we're above it, only sad sack xenophobes are.

I watched Rugby Tonight last week, and Gregor mentioned that they had been in conversation with Skinner for a year, but Skinner was delaying being called up. I expect he was hoping for an England call that never came. I don't begrudge it as he may never get another chance in International rugby, although he's on 23.
 
MikeTheNative said:
Moriarty grew up in Wales and only moved to England when he was 18, for some reason there is a myth that he he was English through and through till Wales picked because of his dad. When in reality he only moved and started in England when his dad got a job at Hartpury college and he went to study.Although I'm not he if he is able to read or write.
I don't agree with Wales picking players like Holmes, Francis or Anscombe but those are the rules and I will not begrudge any team playing by the rules, be it a Tier 2 nation, Scotland, England or NZ. What I don't understand is some of the English's attitude thinking they are above it, yet have done the same with the likes Shields and Ben Teo.
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Do the Welsh collectively have some mental block that prevents them understanding a very simple comparison?

Velacott - Born in England, raised in England, played for an English club but represented Scotland at age grade = Scottish and England poaching
Moriarty - Born in England, raised in Wales, played for an English club and represented England at age grade = Welsh and not poaching

Can you not see the double standard? How can anyone possibly claim Velacott is a poach but Moriarty isn't? This really isn't complicated... England don't think we are above it but we are fed up of the crass hypocrisy from other nations who will not hesitate to stick the boot in to us whilst doing it just as badly themselves. They then use the trump cards I mentioned above to justify the hypocrisy.

The likes of Teo and Hughes are blatant but they aren't "poaches" ie we didn't promise them England caps if they came over and targeted as project players, they were already here and eligible. Same with Shields. However these have all been under Jones, a foreign coach with a clear favoritism for SH players.
 
ragerancher said:
Do the Welsh collectively have some mental block that prevents them understanding a very simple comparison?

Velacott - Born in England, raised in England, played for an English club but represented Scotland at age grade = Scottish and England poaching
Moriarty - Born in England, raised in Wales, played for an English club and represented England at age grade = Welsh and not poaching

Can you not see the double standard? How is can anyone possibly claim Velacott is a poach but Moriarty isn't? The really isn't complicated... England don't think we are above it but we are fed up of the crass hypocrisy from other nations who will not hesitate to stick the boot in to us whilst doing it just as badly themselves. They then use the trump cards I mentioned above to justify the hypocrisy.
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Ross moriaty born in st Helens
 
ragerancher said:
Do the Welsh collectively have some mental block that prevents them understanding a very simple comparison?

Velacott - Born in England, raised in England, played for an English club but represented Scotland at age grade = Scottish and England poaching
Moriarty - Born in England, raised in Wales, played for an English club and represented England at age grade = Welsh and not poaching

Can you not see the double standard? How can anyone possibly claim Velacott is a poach but Moriarty isn't? This really isn't complicated... England don't think we are above it but we are fed up of the crass hypocrisy from other nations who will not hesitate to stick the boot in to us whilst doing it just as badly themselves. They then use the trump cards I mentioned above to justify the hypocrisy.
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I agree if that someone is saying Velacot has been poached from Scotland it is ridiculous. I don't like to use the word poach as it sounds a bit over the top and you can't blame a team for selecting a player who qualifies for them. I just find it odd Moriaty was used an example he has Welsh parents and lived most of his life in Wales, I don't see how you can claim he isn't Welsh despite living 3/4 of his life in Wales. As I said there seems to be myth that it was the English system that made him, I suppose it was if you ignore the part of him living his childhood in Wales.
 
I don't think anybody has a problem with guys like Moriarty picking who he wants to play for, it is his decision after all. It's clear that people like him should have the choice. My main problem is the project player issue, unions should not be going to (largely NZ/SA) foreign countries with the sole intention of paying people to switch allegiance in a 3 or 5 year plan. While England have certainly embraced the eligibility rules they have never done this.
For me the solution is simple, make it direct parents, not grandparents and change it to 7-10 years for residency if they moved over the age of 18.
 
MikeTheNative said:
I agree if that someone is saying Velacot has been poached from Scotland it is ridiculous. I don't like to use the word poach as it sounds a bit over the top and you can't blame a team for selecting a player who qualifies for them. I just find it odd Moriaty was used an example he has Welsh parents and lived most of his life in Wales, I don't see how you can claim he isn't Welsh despite living 3/4 of his life in Wales. As I said there seems to be myth that it was the English system that made him, I suppose it was if you ignore the part of him living his childhood in Wales.
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He's not claiming that. He's claiming double standards when people (not you) moan about England poaching a player like Velacott yet accepting a player like Moriaty isn't poaching (which it isn't) The issue is people moan at England when the same rules apply to Moriaty. Neither are poached. We get moaned by other nations for it. That's what he's getting at....
 
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Aristodemus said:
My main problem is the project player issue, unions should not be going to (largely NZ/SA) foreign countries with the sole intention of paying people to switch allegiance in a 3 or 5 year plan. While England have certainly embraced the eligibility rules they have never done this.
.
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This is one thing I don't like and it's not helped the current welsh pro 14 teams foreign players rule. There is a clause that they don't count towards the foreign quota if the player is serving time towards his Welsh qualification. If a player wants to play for Wales after serving his time here fair enough but they shouldn't be signing for a region with the caveat that playing for a country is a long term goal. Hopefully the raise to 5 years residency will help stop this.

MarkyH said:
He's not claiming that. He's claiming double standards when people (not you) moan about England poaching a player like Velacott yet accepting a player like Moriaty isn't poaching (which it isn't) The issue is people moan at England when the same rules apply to Moriaty. Neither are poached. We get moaned by other nations for it. That's what he's trying to get at....
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My apologies for not reading his post properly. The Welsh rugby public can be quite uniformed sometimes and it does make cringe some of the crap they spout. Sorry for going off topic.
 
BenJeffrey said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45956402

Common sense from the RFU?!
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Extending the season really isn't the answer - though for once, that's not PRL's fault. Given that World Rugby has decided to screw the NH even more, this was pretty inevitable.

How long before those "Rest" weekends get taken up by something else though (almost certainly "ooh, maybe we could increase the prem to 14 teams, so we didn't have these pesky breaks part-way through the season"). Because once your horse has died, continuing to flog it is the only answer!
 

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