England Rugby 2019/20 Thread

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

But why?
We've got the fullbacks of the 3rd and 4th positioned sides in the league in the EPS - why shift a the starting 13 of the best side in the league the position he's barely touched before (or at least not in many many many years)

Not at all saying that I’d have Slade at 15 but I’m fairly certain he played more minutes at 15 at the World Cup than he did at 13. EJ clearly likes him there.

Edit: Yep, 84 minutes at 15, 81 at 13.

 

[BPM]

Why can't both things be true?

Are you happy with go into 2023 with Youngs and Heinz as our first and 2nd choice scrumhalves? And Binny our only 8?

You can be happy with results while still calling out some mental decisions

They can - although I think Living Sacrifice calling him a ‘d*ck’ was a little strong and suggesting he ‘hasn’t built a rounded squad’ just isn’t factually accurate. Probably more of a reaction to his dramatic responses.

As you’ll have seen from my other posts, I often find Eddie very irritating and I don’t always understand his decision-making, but I do accept that he gets more right than he does wrong and I don’t honestly believe he makes decisions to troll the media.

I’ve always criticised his approach to the 9s and I was one of the posters questioning whether Billy deserves a place in the squad on recent form. FWIW, I don’t.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not at all saying that I’d have Slade at 15 but I’m fairly certain he played more minutes at 15 at the World Cup than he did at 13. EJ clearly likes him there.

Edit: Yep, 84 minutes at 15, 81 at 13.

Grim,
I'm sure he'd do a good job there but....we've got 15s, let's play our centres at centre and our 15s at 15

They can - although I think Living Sacrifice calling him a ‘d*ck’ was a little strong and suggesting he ‘hasn’t built a rounded squad’ just isn’t factually accurate. Probably more of a reaction to his dramatic responses.

As you’ll have seen from my other posts, I often find Eddie very irritating and I don’t always understand his decision-making, but I do accept that he gets more right than he does wrong and I don’t honestly believe he makes decisions to troll the media.

I’ve always criticised his approach to the 9s and I was one of the posters questioning whether Billy deserves a place in the squad on recent form. FWIW, I don’t.

Fair points,
I think my opinions lie somewhere in between yours and LS's - so can see where both of you are coming from

 

[Scotty]

Not at all saying that I’d have Slade at 15 but I’m fairly certain he played more minutes at 15 at the World Cup than he did at 13. EJ clearly likes him there.

Edit: Yep, 84 minutes at 15, 81 at 13.

Malins is EJs dream... a playmaker thats actually a 15.

Slade needs to be a 15 really. Wants to be a 10, on paper a 12 but doesnt like 12 and hasnt excelled, found his position at 13. Good at best 15.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

But we can also expect to win a lot more often than not ...

Obviously it’s all complete luck since he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

Well there in lays the problem with people’s argument, if we had selected Spenser or Robson at SH for the World Cup, would we have won? Who knows, but what if we still got to the final and lost? Again who knows.

But without using Young’s, we’d still be in better off place as Spenser and Robson would have more experience and be better off for it, where as whatever happens our next WC cycle will be without Young’s and Heinz so why waste caps on them?

Just a musing thought over a nice pint of speckled hen tonight.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Malins is EJs dream... a playmaker thats actually a 15.

Slade needs to be a 15 really. Wants to be a 10, on paper a 12 but doesnt like 12 and hasnt excelled, found his position at 13. Good at best 15.

I think he’s really settled in at 13. Wasn't his natural position but he’s adapted to become a very threatening runner in that channel and his defence there is outstanding. I see no reason to try and move him to 15, even if he probably would do perfectly well there.

 

[Scotty]

I think he’s really settled in at 13. Wasn't his natural position but he’s adapted to become a very threatening runner in that channel and his defence there is outstanding. I see no reason to try and move him to 15, even if he probably would do perfectly well there.

I dont mind him covering there but dont want him as the 15, tbh he will have competition at 13 with young lads like Marchant and Lawrence but seriously we need to find a 12.

I did like the slade/manu partnership where they could be interchangeable depending on the play.

 

[BPM]

I think that’s what Eddie is hoping to replicate with Lawrence.

I’ll always take DM articles with a bit of a pinch of salt, but since the relevant part of it is direct quotes from Eddie, it looks like that’s the plan: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/r...-decider-against-Italy-impressive-season.html

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I’ll always take DM articles with a bit of a pinch of salt

In rugby terms DM is pretty much gospel - they've got their fingers in so many pies, they get every scoop (in English rugby) spot on.
Pretty sure they broke the Sarries Salary Cap drama, and always get England stuff right

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Watching ‘The Next Level’ Episode 2 and at some point very briefly in the intro 2 team selections are shown on a board. The teams were (neither had a 15):
1. Obano/Mako (Guessing 1 was a doubt for training)
2. Dunn
3. Heyes
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Hill
7. Underhill? (Not sure why there was a question mark by his name but there was)
8. Curry
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Crossdale
12. Lawrence
13. Joseph
14. Thorley

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler/Stuart
4. Ewels
5. Moon
6. Dombrandt
7. Earl
8. Vunipola
9. Heinz
10. Furbank
11. Malins
12. Dingwall
13. Marchant
14. Watson

A few discussion points in there:
- Curry still playing at 8 despite Dombrandt and Earl both being named on the flanks. Looks like Eddie actually is persisting with that transition (probably why he didn’t see the need to include Dombrandt). Wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him remain at 8 for Italy.
- Dombrandt now been played at 6 both times we’ve seen Jones ‘select’ him (here and for Barbarians). Unsure what to take from that. With Hill and Dombrandt both 6 in these teams and Lawes at 6 during the 6 Nations maybe Jones has decided he want a brutish, ball carrying 6 and a more mobile 8? That’s the only way it makes sense to me.
- Lawrence training at 12. Good.
- Furbank training at 10 while Malins remained in the back three. Odd. Entirely possible that the 2 have been alternating but even so... I’m hoping that it means Jones wants to get Malins playing in the back three against Italy so isn’t wasting time training him at 10. I expect though that it’s that he wants to use Furbank as 10 cover in that game, either from the bench or to shift there late game.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Watching ‘The Next Level’ Episode 2 and at some point very briefly in the intro 2 team selections are shown on a board. The teams were (neither had a 15):
1. Obano/Mako (Guessing 1 was a doubt for training)
2. Dunn
3. Heyes
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Hill
7. Underhill? (Not sure why there was a question mark by his name but there was)
8. Curry
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Crossdale
12. Lawrence
13. Joseph
14. Thorley

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler/Stuart
4. Ewels
5. Moon
6. Dombrandt
7. Earl
8. Vunipola
9. Heinz
10. Furbank
11. Malins
12. Dingwall
13. Marchant
14. Watson

A few discussion points in there:
- Curry still playing at 8 despite Dombrandt and Earl both being named on the flanks. Looks like Eddie actually is persisting with that transition (probably why he didn’t see the need to include Dombrandt). Wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him remain at 8 for Italy.
- Dombrandt now been played at 6 both times we’ve seen Jones ‘select’ him (here and for Barbarians). Unsure what to take from that. With Hill and Dombrandt both 6 in these teams and Lawes at 6 during the 6 Nations maybe Jones has decided he want a brutish, ball carrying 6 and a more mobile 8? That’s the only way it makes sense to me.
- Lawrence training at 12. Good.
- Furbank training at 10 while Malins remained in the back three. Odd. Entirely possible that the 2 have been alternating but even so... I’m hoping that it means Jones wants to get Malins playing in the back three against Italy so isn’t wasting time training him at 10. I expect though that it’s that he wants to use Furbank as 10 cover in that game, either from the bench or to shift there late game.

I mean that lot makes me cringe, what Is Eddie’s obsession with playing people out of position.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

But we can also expect to win a lot more often than not ...

Obviously it’s all complete luck since he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

He’s got a very good win percentage. But with the playing, and other, resources he’s had we shouldn’t really expect anything less. He’s done a good job - we’ll usually be competitive, but he hasn’t taken the next step and turned us into anything like the dominant force the ABs have been or even Eng 03 vintage were and I suspect that’s what the RFU were really hoping for.

It’s out of our hands but if things go our way on Sat we could land a 3rd 6N title in his 5 years. Not bad, but the only GS was 16 which is starting to get a bit sepia tinted and largely achieved with a team he inherited - admittedly he turned them around well from a low base.

He also got us to the RWC final following one of the great Eng performances v NZ. But then we didn’t show in the final and he’s admitted he got the selection wrong.

He’s taken us through a great winning run albeit with some horrible performances and then the poor sequence of results in 18.

So, yes a good record but the graph is very uneven and he’s no alchemist. I like out of the box thinkers but sometimes it feels like he does too much just for the sake of being different.

 

[will311293]

I think one of the things to remember when you listen to Eddie talk about what he is looking for is he wants a team that can win the arm wrestle and the team that can spring into action and unlock play and he refers to to Umaga and Robson lines off back of line out/maul. When you think he realistically has Ford/Farrell in the same sort of mould and level of control over the game. Now in no way am I saying that Umaga is better than Simmonds, Simmonds has more control and dictating ability over the game and there is a reason he's the youngest double winning skipper ever. However, he is in a very similar mould to ford and 100% farrell, therefore i reckon Umaga offers Jones's a different type of attacking, level of unknown entity plus he also plays fullback for wasps when needed.

Sam Simmonds is a difficult call but suppose the only thing against him is that Earl, Hill, Willis, Ludlham have played multiple positions and Sam only ever plays 8 at exeter, thats about as much as i can think.

Spencer... no idea.... Heinz... really.....

Ribbans is a slightly odd one... there are a fair few young options who you can have in as squad player to learn and be around the squad but is what it is..

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I like how everyone's name is written normally and then just THOR

I don't like how Furbank is an option at 10, even in training

 

[MarkyH]

irrelevant really, its training, and half those players didn't make the 6N squad. No Exeter or Bath players. Deffo not reading much into that. More than likely a 14 vs 14 full contact training match.

 

[BPM]

If you actually watch it, it looks like the teams were picked out of a hat by the two captains. Definitely not anything to read in to.

As for Furbank at 10, this was during the Barbarians week. Malins would have been a more obvious option, but Ford was injured and Umaga was not yet with the squad.

Let’s all calm down and wait until a team is actually announced.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Heinz injured, Mitchell called up

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Heinz injured, Mitchell called up

Youngs to play 78 minutes against Italy confirmed.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Youngs to play 78 minutes against Italy confirmed.

That's optimistic, Youngs to play the full 80 every game until Heinz recovers. Btw is Mitchell any good? I've not really followed Saints and so don't know how much of a role he has played in their pretty dire performances?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That's optimistic, Youngs to play the full 80 every game until Heinz recovers. Btw is Mitchell any good? I've not really followed Saints and so don't know how much of a role he has played in their pretty dire performances?

Haven't watched a huge amount of him for Saints either but he was a standout in the Barbarians game last year. Definitely leading the way out of the young 9s.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Looks to be having second season syndrome but it's hard to judge saints players properly atm because their whole side has been a mess since lockdown
He was very good last season

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

That's optimistic, Youngs to play the full 80 every game until Heinz recovers. Btw is Mitchell any good? I've not really followed Saints and so don't know how much of a role he has played in their pretty dire performances?

Mitchell has been in really mixed form since lockdown. He’s trying way to hard (leading to odd decisions and mistakes) but that might be driven by how rubbish the rest of the team are in general.

Overall he’s definitely England level but he needs to mature and stabilise his game.

 

[Reiser99]

Mitchell has been in really mixed form since lockdown. He’s trying way to hard (leading to odd decisions and mistakes) but that might be driven by how rubbish the rest of the team are in general.

Overall he’s definitely England level but he needs to mature and stabilise his game.

Was going to say that I'd be hesitant to pick anyone from the likes of Saints, Irish, Worcester, or Tigers purely based on how big a gap there seemed to be between them and the rest of the premiership. Only exceptions for me are established players who are proven at international level (and even then not Youngs) or those who are truly exceptional players.

 

[Jashay]

With the best of will towards Willi Heinz, I can't help but see this as a positive for the squad. At the very least it means a new SH in the 23. I imagine it'll be Robson over Mitchell, but they both need caps so I'm happy either way

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

With the best of will towards Willi Heinz, I can't help but see this as a positive for the squad. At the very least it means a new SH in the 23. I imagine it'll be Robson over Mitchell, but they both need caps so I'm happy either way

Naw 7-1 split on the bench mate obviously

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Naw 7-1 split on the bench mate obviously

They will pick a specialist 13 to cover 9-15 even with two 13s on the pitch at a guess.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

They will pick a specialist 13 to cover 9-15 even with two 13s on the pitch at a guess.

And obviously it'll be some rando that plays in the crusaders reserve team and is 34.


Or it'll be Luther burrell

 

[BPM]

Was going to say that I'd be hesitant to pick anyone from the likes of Saints, Irish, Worcester, or Tigers purely based on how big a gap there seemed to be between them and the rest of the premiership. Only exceptions for me are established players who are proven at international level (and even then not Youngs) or those who are truly exceptional players.

I get the hesitation to some degree, but I’d argue that playing well in an average side is often the mark of a good player. Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence are definitely there on merit and Alex Mitchell is there on promise.

I’m less sure on Ribbans, but without Lawes or Kruis, he’s among a group of locks that have potential but are a few steps down from what we’ve been used to.

Ludlam has proved he’s up to standard, but I think he’s lucky to be included and I’d have preferred Dombrandt or Wilson (I know he’s injured).