England Rugby 2019/20 Thread

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Eddie on cips

What Jones and Cipriani have said about each other

England head coach made some critical comments in his new book

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk

Honestly I find it hard to disagree with anything he said in that.
Nothing I have seen from cips ever or since suggests he would've made one bit of difference to the England squad.

Cipriani and Russell are in exactly the same boat of pulling off one major play per game that makes the highlight reel so people clammer for them to be involved while ignoring the fact that for the other 79 minutes and 55 seconds of the game they're horrendous at game management and the other core skills of being an international 10. Cipriani shouldn't be anywhere near England and Russell should be nowhere near the Lions.

 

[Jashay]

Looking at the squad I'm wondering which lock EJ is going to play at 6?

I'm hoping the inclusion of Billy V means we're not going to see Curry at 8, but it's Eddie so we probably will anyway. If that happens I wouldn't actually mind a back row of Willis, Underhill, Curry to see what three jackals can do (plus Itoje in the locks)... but who knows? We might get 6. Itoje 7. Singleton 8 Curry.

Feels like Malins has a decent chance of a look-in here with us being down a FH and our usual FB

 

[Which Tyler]

OK - my selection for Italy, from the current squad...
1. MVunipola
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Launchbury
6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. BVunipola

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. May
15. Malins

16. Dunn, 17. Obano, 18, Stuart, 19. JHIll, 20. Willis
21. Robson, 22. Lawrence, 23. Thorley

It's still a 6N fixture, and we need a big win if we're to win the Championship, so I want as close to first choice starters as possible, but newbies on the bench. Consequently, my starting pack picks itself. Willis is the highest priority forward to get capped, but I always prefer debuts to come off the bench with less pressure.
In the backs, Youngs Farrell and Slade pick themselves , even though I'm loathe to start Exeter players after their last couple of weeks; so it's just a matter of who gets which shirt. Slade's the most natural IC in the squad and really ought to be even better there than he is at OC; this is also the only way we can start 2 experienced centres.
Yes, I'm a fan of Watson at FB, but Eddie likes (and I can see why) a 3rd playmaker in his backs, preferably at FB - which means Malins at FB (I'm discounting Furbank as he's not international quality).

My bench is where I'm looking at new caps - which is harsh on Genge, who's ahead of Obano in the pecking order, but 3rd choices need some game time, and I'm hoping that having a club combination together helps both he and Dunn on debut.
Hill must be knackered, but going from the bench should be enough protection, and whilst I'm not really a fan of his, he's still been the best lock since lockdown and absolutely deserves a shot. Willis simply has to be selected; but I can't justify breaking the starting flankers until he has better form at international level. Besides, debuts should be made from the bench wherever possible. I'd intend to bring him on for Billy.
There's no point having Heinz in the 23. No FH on the bench is ballsy, but Farrell goes off for cards more than he does for fitness/form issues, and with Slade and Malins both starting, I feel we have emergency cover (let's face it, Farrell's replacement is for emergencies only). If Faz goes down hurt, Slade goes to 10 and Lawrence to 12. Thorley's rationale is the much the same as Willis - I can't justify breaking up the starters until he shows that he's better than them at this level, and should make his debut from the bench. Intention is to bring Lawrence on for JJ.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Looking at the squad I'm wondering which lock EJ is going to play at 6?

I'm hoping the inclusion of Billy V means we're not going to see Curry at 8, but it's Eddie so we probably will anyway. If that happens I wouldn't actually mind a back row of Willis, Underhill, Curry to see what three jackals can do (plus Itoje in the locks)... but who knows? We might get 6. Itoje 7. Singleton 8 Curry.

Feels like Malins has a decent chance of a look-in here with us being down a FH and our usual FB

With the back row talent we have there is now precisely no reason to play a lock in the back row.

There is also precisely no reason to play Curry at 8 as he isn't one. Forget all that guff about numbers on shirts not mattering; players have to be multi skilled but each position has its own nuances which are brought more sharply into focus as the calibre of opposition increases.

There is also precisely no reason to start Binny on form grounds. He admits to motivation problems and has been living off reputation for too long.

This is Italy. Call it arrogant if you like but they're awful.

Does the ***le matter in such a disjointed season? Not really, this is about the future although we ought to get a BP win regardless.

Of the players we have available Earl plays fairly regularly at 8, let's start him there with Curry at 7. At 6 Underhill is never a bad call, but with a smallish 8 there's a good argument for Hill. But I'd go for Willis. A bit experimental but this isn't the ABs or the Boks.

 

[Scotty]

OK - my selection for Italy, from the current squad...
1. MVunipola
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Launchbury
6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. BVunipola

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. May
15. Malins

16. Dunn, 17. Obano, 18, Stuart, 19. JHIll, 20. Willis
21. Robson, 22. Lawrence, 23. Thorley

It's still a 6N fixture, and we need a big win if we're to win the Championship, so I want as close to first choice starters as possible, but newbies on the bench. Consequently, my starting pack picks itself. Willis is the highest priority forward to get capped, but I always prefer debuts to come off the bench with less pressure.
In the backs, Youngs Farrell and Slade pick themselves , even though I'm loathe to start Exeter players after their last couple of weeks; so it's just a matter of who gets which shirt. Slade's the most natural IC in the squad and really ought to be even better there than he is at OC; this is also the only way we can start 2 experienced centres.
Yes, I'm a fan of Watson at FB, but Eddie likes (and I can see why) a 3rd playmaker in his backs, preferably at FB - which means Malins at FB (I'm discounting Furbank as he's not international quality).

My bench is where I'm looking at new caps - which is harsh on Genge, who's ahead of Obano in the pecking order, but 3rd choices need some game time, and I'm hoping that having a club combination together helps both he and Dunn on debut.
Hill must be knackered, but going from the bench should be enough protection, and whilst I'm not really a fan of his, he's still been the best lock since lockdown and absolutely deserves a shot. Willis simply has to be selected; but I can't justify breaking the starting flankers until he has better form at international level. Besides, debuts should be made from the bench wherever possible. I'd intend to bring him on for Billy.
There's no point having Heinz in the 23. No FH on the bench is ballsy, but Farrell goes off for cards more than he does for fitness/form issues, and with Slade and Malins both starting, I feel we have emergency cover (let's face it, Farrell's replacement is for emergencies only). If Faz goes down hurt, Slade goes to 10 and Lawrence to 12. Thorley's rationale is the much the same as Willis - I can't justify breaking up the starters until he shows that he's better than them at this level, and should make his debut from the bench. Intention is to bring Lawrence on for JJ.

Id go slightly different in terms of new caps id have a couple starting, id have some experience on the bench too to replace if having a bad game and so we can pull away in the second half. And Chiefs fresh off 3 brutal starts i wouldnt start them.

Id go
Genge
George
Sinks
Itoje
Launchbury
Willis
Curry
Billy
Youngs
Faz
Big joe(maybe controversial but i rate him highly and get him some good ball and he could be a nightmare for the defence)
Lawrence (crash ball 12 who likes a tackle, aware he is a 13 but so are slade and JJ, although Malins has played 12 at Sarries to good effect a couple of times from the bench i dont want him there as he is a 10 or 15.)
JJ
Watson
Malins

Dunn
Mako
Stuart
Ewels(JHill has had a brutal 3 weeks 1 week off i think is needed) (big lump allows earl for Billy)
Earl. (Bring on some pace) (harsh on underhill but we need a scorline and i think his pace against tired legs this is good)
Robson (please...let him play)
Slade (covers Lawrence in case of a bad game, will come on at 15 if not i bet EJ seems to like him there)
May (if Joe has a shocker he is there to steady the ship and score some tries)

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

With any Eddie squad, we can expect 1 player in a new controversial position, 1 other player starting who shouldn't and finally no proper bench cover in the backs.

 

[BPM]

But we can also expect to win a lot more often than not ...

Obviously it's all complete luck since he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why can't both things be true?

Are you happy with go into 2023 with Youngs and Heinz as our first and 2nd choice scrumhalves? And Binny our only 8?

You can be happy with results while still calling out some mental decisions

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Pretty sure Slade will be 15, he's covered there before.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But why?
We've got the fullbacks of the 3rd and 4th positioned sides in the league in the EPS - why shift a the starting 13 of the best side in the league the position he's barely touched before (or at least not in many many many years)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

But why?
We've got the fullbacks of the 3rd and 4th positioned sides in the league in the EPS - why shift a the starting 13 of the best side in the league the position he's barely touched before (or at least not in many many many years)

Not at all saying that I'd have Slade at 15 but I'm fairly certain he played more minutes at 15 at the World Cup than he did at 13. EJ clearly likes him there.

Edit: Yep, 84 minutes at 15, 81 at 13.

 

[BPM]

Why can't both things be true?

Are you happy with go into 2023 with Youngs and Heinz as our first and 2nd choice scrumhalves? And Binny our only 8?

You can be happy with results while still calling out some mental decisions

They can - although I think Living Sacrifice calling him a 'd*ck' was a little strong and suggesting he 'hasn't built a rounded squad' just isn't factually accurate. Probably more of a reaction to his dramatic responses.

As you'll have seen from my other posts, I often find Eddie very irritating and I don't always understand his decision-making, but I do accept that he gets more right than he does wrong and I don't honestly believe he makes decisions to troll the media.

I've always criticised his approach to the 9s and I was one of the posters questioning whether Billy deserves a place in the squad on recent form. FWIW, I don't.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not at all saying that I'd have Slade at 15 but I'm fairly certain he played more minutes at 15 at the World Cup than he did at 13. EJ clearly likes him there.

Edit: Yep, 84 minutes at 15, 81 at 13.

Grim,
I'm sure he'd do a good job there but....we've got 15s, let's play our centres at centre and our 15s at 15

They can - although I think Living Sacrifice calling him a 'd*ck' was a little strong and suggesting he 'hasn't built a rounded squad' just isn't factually accurate. Probably more of a reaction to his dramatic responses.

As you'll have seen from my other posts, I often find Eddie very irritating and I don't always understand his decision-making, but I do accept that he gets more right than he does wrong and I don't honestly believe he makes decisions to troll the media.

I've always criticised his approach to the 9s and I was one of the posters questioning whether Billy deserves a place in the squad on recent form. FWIW, I don't.

Fair points,
I think my opinions lie somewhere in between yours and LS's - so can see where both of you are coming from

 

[Scotty]

Not at all saying that I'd have Slade at 15 but I'm fairly certain he played more minutes at 15 at the World Cup than he did at 13. EJ clearly likes him there.

Edit: Yep, 84 minutes at 15, 81 at 13.

Malins is EJs dream... a playmaker thats actually a 15.

Slade needs to be a 15 really. Wants to be a 10, on paper a 12 but doesnt like 12 and hasnt excelled, found his position at 13. Good at best 15.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

But we can also expect to win a lot more often than not ...

Obviously it's all complete luck since he doesn't know what he's doing.

Well there in lays the problem with people's argument, if we had selected Spenser or Robson at SH for the World Cup, would we have won? Who knows, but what if we still got to the final and lost? Again who knows.

But without using Young's, we'd still be in better off place as Spenser and Robson would have more experience and be better off for it, where as whatever happens our next WC cycle will be without Young's and Heinz so why waste caps on them?

Just a musing thought over a nice pint of speckled hen tonight.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Malins is EJs dream... a playmaker thats actually a 15.

Slade needs to be a 15 really. Wants to be a 10, on paper a 12 but doesnt like 12 and hasnt excelled, found his position at 13. Good at best 15.

I think he's really settled in at 13. Wasn't his natural position but he's adapted to become a very threatening runner in that channel and his defence there is outstanding. I see no reason to try and move him to 15, even if he probably would do perfectly well there.

 

[Scotty]

I think he's really settled in at 13. Wasn't his natural position but he's adapted to become a very threatening runner in that channel and his defence there is outstanding. I see no reason to try and move him to 15, even if he probably would do perfectly well there.

I dont mind him covering there but dont want him as the 15, tbh he will have competition at 13 with young lads like Marchant and Lawrence but seriously we need to find a 12.

I did like the slade/manu partnership where they could be interchangeable depending on the play.

 

[BPM]

I think that's what Eddie is hoping to replicate with Lawrence.

I'll always take DM articles with a bit of a pinch of salt, but since the relevant part of it is direct quotes from Eddie, it looks like that's the plan: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/r...-decider-against-Italy-impressive-season.html

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'll always take DM articles with a bit of a pinch of salt

In rugby terms DM is pretty much gospel - they've got their fingers in so many pies, they get every scoop (in English rugby) spot on.
Pretty sure they broke the Sarries Salary Cap drama, and always get England stuff right

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Watching 'The Next Level' Episode 2 and at some point very briefly in the intro 2 team selections are shown on a board. The teams were (neither had a 15):
1. Obano/Mako (Guessing 1 was a doubt for training)
2. Dunn
3. Heyes
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Hill
7. Underhill? (Not sure why there was a question mark by his name but there was)
8. Curry
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Crossdale
12. Lawrence
13. Joseph
14. Thorley

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler/Stuart
4. Ewels
5. Moon
6. Dombrandt
7. Earl
8. Vunipola
9. Heinz
10. Furbank
11. Malins
12. Dingwall
13. Marchant
14. Watson

A few discussion points in there:
- Curry still playing at 8 despite Dombrandt and Earl both being named on the flanks. Looks like Eddie actually is persisting with that transition (probably why he didn't see the need to include Dombrandt). Wouldn't be at all surprised to see him remain at 8 for Italy.
- Dombrandt now been played at 6 both times we've seen Jones 'select' him (here and for Barbarians). Unsure what to take from that. With Hill and Dombrandt both 6 in these teams and Lawes at 6 during the 6 Nations maybe Jones has decided he want a brutish, ball carrying 6 and a more mobile 8? That's the only way it makes sense to me.
- Lawrence training at 12. Good.
- Furbank training at 10 while Malins remained in the back three. Odd. Entirely possible that the 2 have been alternating but even so... I'm hoping that it means Jones wants to get Malins playing in the back three against Italy so isn't wasting time training him at 10. I expect though that it's that he wants to use Furbank as 10 cover in that game, either from the bench or to shift there late game.