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England Rugby 2020/21 Thread

TRF_Olyy

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There's a big button in the top right of the page :p

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FLOBALOB

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Can’t see a six nations thread, so posted here for now.
Following his side’s victory over the champions Exeter on Saturday, the Bristol director of rugby, Pat Lam, said: “It is a massive opportunity for the Premiership to say: ‘Let’s go. Let’s play Europe but if it is postponed let’s bring everything forward and let’s get going,’ because rugby is great at the moment. Obviously let’s wait for everything to be final then PRL are ready to go and let’s activate – keep rugby going.”

Go easy on the Red Bull, Pat.
 

BPM

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I think so.
He was included in the EPS for three years, when he wasn't anywhere near ready - starts getting serious game time and is easily the best EQP 12 in the prem since lockdown but gets dropped from the next EPS.
There are four centres in the EPS atm and all of them are outside centres - 5 if you include Dingwall flitting in and out of the EPS, who is also a 13. Also had Tuilagi - also a 13.
You have to imagine that if he's seriously looking at Scotland then EJ has told him he's not in his plans - considering we have real issues at 12, allowing the best one in the league atm to go to direct competitors is definite mis-management.
I’m with Toby on this. If being left out of 1 squad is all it takes Redpath to overlook years of interest and encouragement, I’d be blaming him before criticising Eddie Jones,

You can speculate about what he has or hasn’t been told by Eddie, but we do know for certain that he has seen plenty of interest from England barring an actual cap. Maybe we should go with the actual facts ...
 

TRF_Olyy

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Maybe we should go with the actual facts ...
Like him being dropped when we're desperate for a 12/the incumbents are playing really poorly?
 

Old Hooker

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Wouldn’t downplay the emotional draw of following in his Dad’s stud marks either.
 

TBeastT

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Like him being dropped when we're desperate for a 12/the incumbents are playing really poorly?
Redpath wasn’t playing particularly good rugby before that, though. He’s looked much better this season but when the squad was announced I don’t really remember anyone thinking he should have been included. EJ can’t just keep every dual-qualified player in every squad just to keep them happy so that they don’t defect.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Meh,
I'm not happy going into the Six Nations with Slade and Farrell as our 12 options, would much rather we have an actual 12.
I'm not saying cap every dual qualified player but definitely cap the ones who are very good and in positions we have no one else in.

And he definitely was playing well before the Autumn Nations squad was announced - the season resumed over two months before it, and he hit the ground running at Bath.
 

living sacrifice

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Redpath wasn’t playing particularly good rugby before that, though. He’s looked much better this season but when the squad was announced I don’t really remember anyone thinking he should have been included. EJ can’t just keep every dual-qualified player in every squad just to keep them happy so that they don’t defect.
I thought everyone was annoyed at the lack of 12s in the squad? It is more poor forward planning with 8, 9, 12 & 15.
 

BPM

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Meh,
I'm not happy going into the Six Nations with Slade and Farrell as our 12 options, would much rather we have an actual 12.
I'm not saying cap every dual qualified player but definitely cap the ones who are very good and in positions we have no one else in.

And he definitely was playing well before the Autumn Nations squad was announced - the season resumed over two months before it, and he hit the ground running at Bath.
I’d much rather have an actual 12 there too. However, I’m not sure Redpath is good enough to demand a starting spot, particularly given that he’s spent a lot of his time at Bath playing at 13.
 

BPM

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I thought everyone was annoyed at the lack of 12s in the squad? It is more poor forward planning with 8, 9, 12 & 15.
Except you only ever see negatives and give Eddie Jones no credit for anything.

I certainly don’t agree with everything he does, but I don’t know how you can plan for players that don’t actually exist?

At 8, there are valid debates to be had about Simmonds, Dombrandt and Mercer being in the squad. I’m not sure those debates are quite as valid on them starting.

Same could be said at 9, where Robson and Spencer should have been given more chances but aren’t definitely better than Youngs (both are better than Heinz though IMO). Mitchell has been included when he showed promise and Randall has only just started playing consistently enough to be a credible option.

12 - OK, there’s Redpath, but who else is there? Do you pick a player who you don’t think is ready or do you try to create a compromise solution with players you already know can deliver at test level? I can understand why he hasn’t been capped yet.

At 15, Daly looked like he had all the tools to be an excellent 15. Eddie gave him the chance to prove it and he didn’t. He got a long time and I would have swapped him with Watson a lot earlier, but I don’t think anyone with a good claim was outright ignored? Since then, Furbank has been tried and more recently, Malins. What exactly is the problem?
 

TRF_Olyy

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I’d much rather have an actual 12 there too. However, I’m not sure Redpath is good enough to demand a starting spot, particularly given that he’s spent a lot of his time at Bath playing at 13.
Wouldn't say three appearances is "a lot" - he's Bath's first choice 12 and only played 13 when JJ was with England (with Matavesi going to 12).

No one is necessarily saying Redpath should be a starter for England but to not have a look at him (especially considering the alternatives) and then lose him to Scotland as a result is poor man management, no other term for it.
 

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But he did ‘have a look at him’? The only thing missing was a cap. At the time, I imagine it was probably a straight choice between Redpath and Lawrence and the latter was deemed to be closer to being ready.

Given the interest shown already, I think it would be a petulant move to throw his lot on with the Scots. If you want to be an England player, you always need to accept that there will be strong competition. If he can’t handle being left out of a squad for a nothing tournament that doesn’t reflect well.

I’m sure it’s more than 3 times that he’s played at 13, but even if not, he’s only played for Bath 14 times so that’s more than 20% of his appearances,
 

TBeastT

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Obviously this is speculation but this is how I see EJ's relationship with Redpath:
Initially included him in an apprentice capacity because he saw a lot of promise in him. He wasn't getting game time for Sale so there was no harm in pulling him away and trying him out in an England camp so that he could develop in that capacity. Once Redpath moved to Bath and actually started getting a lot of game time, it was better to let him develop in competitive club rugby rather than pull him out once again to fill an apprentice role or to hold tackle bags as a bench/2nd string option, which is what he rightly would have been at the time.
Wouldn't say three appearances is "a lot" - he's Bath's first choice 12 and only played 13 when JJ was with England (with Matavesi going to 12).

No one is necessarily saying Redpath should be a starter for England but to not have a look at him (especially considering the alternatives) and then lose him to Scotland as a result is poor man management, no other term for it.
EJ's clearly been looking at him for a very long time. I get that there's very little loyalty in pro sport these days but I can see why after several years of showing a lot of faith in him, EJ would hope that Redpath would stick around longer than the first offer of caps from elsewhere.

I can also see on Redpath's behalf why playing in a Scotland backline with the likes of a rejuvenated Russell, DVDM, Graham and Hogg (as well as behind a very capable pack) is suddenly a lot more appealing than it would've been in years gone by.
 
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TRF_Olyy

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EJ would hope that Redpath would stick around longer than the first offer of caps from elsewhere.
He's been turning down Scotland since u18s,

Only reason he'll be looking now is because of something EJ has said - he always plays silly buggers when he drops or shuns a player, like telling Cipriani he needs to work on his attack. Probably told him he's been dropped because he needs consistent game time at 12 or something.

it was better to let him develop in competitive club rugby rather than pull him out once again to fill an apprentice role or to hold tackle bags as a bench/2nd string option, which is what he rightly would have been at the time.
We're talking now, not then, though - Farrell and Slade were both poor all autumn, and Redpath has been consistently good in an inconsistent Bath side. It was weird to drop him when he did but to not name him in this 6N (as the rumours suggest) would be ridiculous.

It's all hypothetical, anyway, because maybe he's not being called up by Scotland, maybe he'll start for England in our next game - but my initial point, as ever, was that if we do lose him to Scotland then it's poor man management.


I’m sure it’s more than 3 times that he’s played at 13, but even if not, he’s only played for Bath 14 times so that’s more than 20% of his appearances,
It's not, I checked
He's definitely got a ton more experience at 12 and is, y'know, their starter there...
It's not like he's coming off the bench sometimes at 12 sometimes at 13.
 

living sacrifice

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Except you only ever see negatives and give Eddie Jones no credit for anything.

I certainly don’t agree with everything he does, but I don’t know how you can plan for players that don’t actually exist?

At 8, there are valid debates to be had about Simmonds, Dombrandt and Mercer being in the squad. I’m not sure those debates are quite as valid on them starting.

Same could be said at 9, where Robson and Spencer should have been given more chances but aren’t definitely better than Youngs (both are better than Heinz though IMO). Mitchell has been included when he showed promise and Randall has only just started playing consistently enough to be a credible option.

12 - OK, there’s Redpath, but who else is there? Do you pick a player who you don’t think is ready or do you try to create a compromise solution with players you already know can deliver at test level? I can understand why he hasn’t been capped yet.

At 15, Daly looked like he had all the tools to be an excellent 15. Eddie gave him the chance to prove it and he didn’t. He got a long time and I would have swapped him with Watson a lot earlier, but I don’t think anyone with a good claim was outright ignored? Since then, Furbank has been tried and more recently, Malins. What exactly is the problem?
Calm down big man, just because I talk about things mr Jones could improve on it doesn’t mean I only see negative things from him.

Reading your post though you have got some great thoughts on the options at 8,9,12 &15. Just wish we’d have seen more there from Jones. I mean at no point did I want Daly or Furbank at 15 but I guess he tried a 13 and a very average premiership player there.

I know I do like to see squads with depth, form in etc but do you really not think he could have done better with those positions? Really.
 

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Could he have done better? Yes, I think he could. Could he have done much better with the personnel available? I’m not sure.

I also want to see depth and form (as long as it’s sustained and not a flash in the pan), but I genuinely don’t think there are many who should be included that haven’t been.

Who do you want at 15? I’d definitely like to see more of Malins but he is injury prone and with Piutau back to fitness with Bristol, I’m fairly confident Malins will be second choice, as he was to Goode. That’s not exactly screaming pick me.

Watson would have been my choice, but for whatever reason he’s not been picked at 15 so I don’t see why that would be changed now?
 

living sacrifice

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Could he have done better? Yes, I think he could. Could he have done much better with the personnel available? I’m not sure.

I also want to see depth and form (as long as it’s sustained and not a flash in the pan), but I genuinely don’t think there are many who should be included that haven’t been.

Who do you want at 15? I’d definitely like to see more of Malins but he is injury prone and with Piutau back to fitness with Bristol, I’m fairly confident Malins will be second choice, as he was to Goode. That’s not exactly screaming pick me.

Watson would have been my choice, but for whatever reason he’s not been picked at 15 so I don’t see why that would be changed now?
For me it’s always been Watson, I even think Daly plays better on the wing although there are others.

I get that I can be quite moany about Mr Jones but I guess I don’t have a runny 08 to make my dream team with and win the World Cup. With 12 though I get there’s been little to choose from. Personally I’d have had every English 12 in the squads to at least find 1 or 2 to work with.
 

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While I can get pretty irritated by other positions, the real issue for ages has been 9.

Not just for having tested no back up to Youngs, but for blindly sticking with someone who is a total weather vein for the team. When Youngs is good, Eng tend to be but he doesn’t have enough good days for his experience. 9 sets the tempo for the whole team and Youngs just doesn’t feel like he’s the heartbeat.

And then there are tactics. Do you fit the players into the tactics or build the tactics around the players? If the current kick fest is being prescribed by Jones then there’s no point in choosing ball players like Slade and Daly anywhere in the side.
 

living sacrifice

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While I can get pretty irritated by other positions, the real issue for ages has been 9.

Not just for having tested no back up to Youngs, but for blindly sticking with someone who is a total weather vein for the team. When Youngs is good, Eng tend to be but he doesn’t have enough good days for his experience. 9 sets the tempo for the whole team and Youngs just doesn’t feel like he’s the heartbeat.

And then there are tactics. Do you fit the players into the tactics or build the tactics around the players? If the current kick fest is being prescribed by Jones then there’s no point in choosing ball players like Slade and Daly anywhere in the side.
What made me laugh though was when we called up no experience old kiwi man Heinz at 9 for the World Cup I thought we played better than Youngs.
 

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