England U20 Squad - The rise of the Steroid Guzzling Gym Monkey Oppressors mk5

[Peat]

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Auterac (Saracens), Alec Hepburn (London Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Nathan Morris (London Wasps), Scott Spurling (Saracens), Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby), Sam Twomey (Harlequins), George Merrick (Harlequins), Tom Price (Leicester Tigers), Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie), Ben Nutley (Northampton Saints), Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps), Will Skuse (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Backs
Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby), Alex Day (Northampton Saints), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), Jamie Elliott (Northampton Saints), Mark Jennings (Sale Sharks), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Charlie Walker (Harlequins), Will Addison (Sale Sharks), Ben Ransom (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Good news for our celtic and continental cousins - its likely that Nutley, Kvesic, Vunipola, Spencer, Heathcote, Mills, Daly, Elliot, Yarde, Addison and possibly Barrow, Ford, Walker and Ransom will all be kept by their clubs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Addison will be, especially with Amesbury expected back at the end of the month.

Looks like another good selection - lots of names from the Aviva in there.

 

[m0rris]

Good to see Tom Heathcote and Skuse get call ups, Heathcote has been playing really well for Bath in the AP and has definitely overtaken Vesty in the pecking order... although he's one that Bath would be unwilling to release I am sure as we'll want him for the LV.

 

[Aedaphon]

Met Kyle Sinckler, he is absolutely bloody enormous.

Looks like a good year though, let's hope they can repeat last year's U20 squad performance

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Only just twigged that Ford wasn't there - then again he is the starting 10 at Leeds atm, which I presume is better for his development.
Surprised at no Tommy Bell, he's tearing it up at 15 for Leeds, but again, probably better for him to stay there.

 

[Peat]

Only just twigged that Ford wasn't there - then again he is the starting 10 at Leeds atm, which I presume is better for his development.
Surprised at no Tommy Bell, he's tearing it up at 15 for Leeds, but again, probably better for him to stay there.

Read again, he is. Bell is a slight surprise.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Woops, my mistake.

 

[HowieLO6]

@Peat

Firstly, as a relative newbie here, curious as to your take on the U20 in general, in light of the 'roids ***le.

Secondly, whats your take on the clubs retaining certain players? I can understand why the likes of Kvesic and Daly may be kept behind, considering how they have both deservedly worked their way into their respective First XVs, but what is the potential damage, long-term? While they may be "permitted" to join the U20 during such times as the youth world cup, taking them out of the regular international system seems, to me, to be a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Peat]

@Peat

Firstly, as a relative newbie here, curious as to your take on the U20 in general, in light of the 'roids ***le.

Secondly, whats your take on the clubs retaining certain players? I can understand why the likes of Kvesic and Daly may be kept behind, considering how they have both deservedly worked their way into their respective First XVs, but what is the potential damage, long-term? While they may be "permitted" to join the U20 during such times as the youth world cup, taking them out of the regular international system seems, to me, to be a step in the wrong direction.

I'm taking the **** somewhat with this ***le

It's a common enough joke to refer to the English age grade teams as being like this in many parts of t'internet, because they're usually bigger than most of the teams they face in Europe. That is because English players hit the professional path younger than in other nations and are much further advanced physically which is a big advantage. Don't mistake this for thinking English teams succeed at this level only because we're bigger than the others though; there are a lot of very skillful players coming through, which gives me hope for the future. However, I am beginning to wonder if this process gives them the decision making skills and cojones, but we shall see. It's a worry that's being echoed in professional rugby, so hopefully they're already working on ways to solve it.

I'm mostly all for keeping back players to play for their clubs - there's a good argument that its better for the players, the international window is a great chance for young players to shine what with club squads getting thin, and generally I prefer to give the clubs what they want when we can. It does affect JWC performance a little, in that the team is not as integrated as it could be, but so be it. The fact that Wales, Ireland and Scotland all do the same would seem to suggest its a good idea. Really, the only potential long term damage, is that we don't win as many age grade trophies as we might - which doesn't seem a big worry at the moment, as we win plenty. Long term, it is better for the players development wise to integrate themselves into their first team, and gain experience there - and what is best for the players, is best for England. Or so I believe.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm interested to see where Addison ends up, if he makes the XV/XXII - he's mainly played wing for Sale but has also played 15 and 12.
From what I saw of him at 12 it's his best position, and it's the one he grew up playing.

 

[Peat]

I'm interested to see where Addison ends up, if he makes the XV/XXII - he's mainly played wing for Sale but has also played 15 and 12.
From what I saw of him at 12 it's his best position, and it's the one he grew up playing.

What sort of player is he at 12? He seems very slightly built to go by his page on the Sale site.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He's not massive but he's got no problems with his defence.
He's very quick/agile and has a good pass, so he's not a crash ball centre. I wish we'd use in the centres more as Tuitupou/Leota are very similar so it creates a predictable midfield.

 

[Peat]

He's not massive but he's got no problems with his defence.
He's very quick/agile and has a good pass, so he's not a crash ball centre. I wish we'd use in the centres more as Tuitupou/Leota are very similar so it creates a predictable midfield.

Will be interesting to see how he goes - I have to admit, I tend to prefer such players at 13, and bigger players at 12. At the moment, I'm guessing the first choice partnership when everyone's available will be the Mills-Daly combo they used last year.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Team vs Scotland:

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)
14) Marland Yarde (London Irish)
13) Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
12) Ryan Mills (Gloucester)
11) Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
10) George Ford (C) (Leicester Tigers)
9) Dan Robson (Gloucester)
1) Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
2) Koree Britton (Gloucester)
3) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4) Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
5) George Merrick (Harlequins)
6) Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
7) Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
8) Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

16) Scott Spurling (Saracens)
17) Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
18) Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
19) Elliot Stooke (Gloucester)
20) Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
21) Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
22) Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
23) Anthony Watson (London Irish)

 

[Getofmeland]

Glad to see Heathcote on the Bench, he has been having some great games for Bath recently...

 

[Darwin]

Very strong looking England under 20's team - most (if not all?) of the backline were involved in the U20 RWC last season, so should have developed good combinations together.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agreed - Should put in a good showing, hopefully.

Shame not see Will Addison, but he had a hamstring injury to the other week so will have had little time to stake a claim on a spot. Hopefully will be involved before the end of the 6N though.

 

[Peat]

Very strong looking England under 20's team - most (if not all?) of the backline were involved in the U20 RWC last season, so should have developed good combinations together.

Last year's was stronger I think, I recognised more of the pack at least. More senior experience amongst them. Although I'm not sure we've named our strongest pack first out - I'd have thought Barrow and Twomey in the locks, as well Nutley at openside (and maybe Skuse/Vunipola starting at 8) would be involved. The backline looks pretty slick though, particularly 10-12-13. That should rip teams apart a little. Believe you're right that the entirety of the backline was involved in the U20s at some point.

Incidentally both of the props are a year underage. That's slightly scary.

 

[Darwin]

Last year's was stronger I think, I recognised more of the pack at least. More senior experience amongst them. Although I'm not sure we've named our strongest pack first out - I'd have thought Barrow and Twomey in the locks, as well Nutley at openside (and maybe Skuse/Vunipola starting at 8) would be involved. The backline looks pretty slick though, particularly 10-12-13. That should rip teams apart a little. Believe you're right that the entirety of the backline was involved in the U20s at some point.

Incidentally both of the props are a year underage. That's slightly scary.

It is interesting the different approach New Zealand and England take at U20 level - England seem to frequently have a high proportion of 'youngsters' in the team, meaning they get plenty of continuity from one year to the next. In contrast the New Zealand team very rarely have players that play in the under 20's for more than one year (usually only 1-2 players). For example, from last seasons team I think only Sam Cane and TJ Perenara are eligible for this years team (and at the rate Cane is developing he could well be playing for the AB's against Ireland in June, rather than at the U20 World Cup). Obviously England get the advantage of continuity, and many their players will have had some experience on a world stage, but I wonder whether the extra year of maturity many of the NZ players have gives them some sort of advantage?

Anyways... I actually have a feeling that this will be the year that New Zealand finally get beaten at U20 level, and I'm picking England will be the team to do it. A lot will depend on how the England packs goes - Kvesic is obviously class, and I'm interested to see how young Vunipola goes at 8 should he be given a chance.

 

[Peat]

It is interesting the different approach New Zealand and England take at U20 level - England seem to frequently have a high proportion of 'youngsters' in the team, meaning they get plenty of continuity from one year to the next. In contrast the New Zealand team very rarely have players that play in the under 20's for more than one year (usually only 1-2 players). For example, from last seasons team I think only Sam Cane and TJ Perenara are eligible for this years team (and at the rate Cane is developing he could well be playing for the AB's against Ireland in June, rather than at the U20 World Cup). Obviously England get the advantage of continuity, and many their players will have had some experience on a world stage, but I wonder whether the extra year of maturity many of the NZ players have gives them some sort of advantage?

Anyways... I actually have a feeling that this will be the year that New Zealand finally get beaten at U20 level, and I'm picking England will be the team to do it. A lot will depend on how the England packs goes - Kvesic is obviously class, and I'm interested to see how young Vunipola goes at 8 should he be given a chance.

I've noticed that; I think the Kiwis generally have less returning players than any other nation. I've also noticed the NH teams tend to have more players a year young.

This year, very few of the squad are a year young... oh wait, hang on, done my research, am lying a fair bit. Out of the starting 15 only 4 are a year young; Ford, Clifford and the two props. Both props on the bench are also a year young, as is the hooker, as is Stooke... as is every single sub bar Heathcote and Skuse; and being pedantic Watson is two years young.

I definitely feel extra maturity is an extra advantage; I also think that spreading your U20 appearances is no bad thing for development. Yet, if they are the best players, then lets roll with it - and certainly there might be advantages down the line from the amount of time Ford-Mills-Daly have spent together, as an example. There is something of a continuity thing going on for sure, they often favour the young player in reserve situations (I think George, Vunipola the older and Cowan-Dickie have all benefited from this) but to a large extent we're just picking the best. I mean, you don't pick 4 props that age just for continuity! Looking at the wider squad, Morris the third hooker is also a year young, while Hill, Nowell and Jennings are also a year young. There's a couple of other lads outside the squad who I think might get brought in who are a year young (Slade and Sisi in particular).

This might be the year. I hope so. The backline is about as good as it's ever been, which might well be key; we often get parity for periods with the Baby Blacks, but can never make them pay. Hopefully this time...

Oh, and its not quite full strength in that Spencer will be with the Saxons now - and possibly with England in the summer. Hope Cane isn't with the ABs in the Summer, watching him and Kvesic on the same pitch would be good entertainment; then again, I would like to win, so...

Incidentally, any reason you think this is the year? Does this crop look noticeably weaker?