England V Wales - 29th May

[Peat]

My own thoughts

Mullan - decent set-piece, decent carrying; needed to be more involved
Hartley - Still can't carry but plenty of tackles and strong set-piece
Cole - " " - ok, coulda tackled more
Launchbury - Possibly a perfect second row performance
Lawes - Not as impressive but still made a fine case for further involvement
Harrison - Strong going forwards, not as good as I was hoping when Wales came forwards - and we'll see whether the 5 penalties stands
Haskell - Typical Hask.
Clifford - ESPN says just two tackles. Very good ball in hand, but can't say I noticed him in defence now its been mentioned.

Youngs - Lovely try to be fair! Still works the fringes well, still passes poorly. Would love to hear Jones' honest opinion.
Ford - Goal kicking diabolical. Came into the game better late on, some nice tactical kicking. Dubious as to whether his head is in the right place.
Yarde - Good return
Burrell - Think the criticism is a little much. Should have been more involved, but did make some nice bursts and I can't remember any obvious mistakes. Did he make any?
Joseph - Bit unconvincing at times, but grew into it well. Could have asked for more help
Watson - Bit impressive
Brown - Nice and solid

Taylor - Ok cameo
Genge - Has the physicality for this, doesn't he?
Hill - Ok cameo
Attwood - Not sure I noticed him too much.
Kvesic - Great breakdown work. The questions will get louder.
Care - Better than Youngs, but...
Devoto - Ok cameo
Daly - Nice cameo

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Fair to Eddie on his comments about Ford.

I do like how he tackles the media head on.

thought he did extremely well. I thought he was brilliant, really good. I've seen Tiger Woods miss putts and Michael Jordan miss jump shots, everyone has a bad day. He had a bad day kicking, but I thought the rest of his play was brilliant," Jones said.

"Bottom line is we scored five tries, one was a big "how's your mother", and the others four of the backs scored them. If you score four against Wales your fly-half's doing something right.

"I didn't hear [the booing] to be honest. That's not very nice is it. We've got to be careful of that in rugby because that's what's defined the game. That shouldn't happen.

"I don't talk to him about his kicking, he'll work it out himself. Good players work it out themselves. He's got Jonny [Wilkinson] to call on if he needs some advice. He's a good player George.

"He's a tough boy. I'm not worried about him, he'll be fine and he's a fantastic rugby player. Everyone has experiences which aren't pleasant but he'll be fine.

"What strikes me in this press conference is that we've beaten Wales by five tries and we're talking about a guy who can't kick a few goals.

"It just shows the negative reaction in English rugby and I find it quite sad to be honest. When do you score five tries against Wales?

"They're at literally full strength and we're missing 11 players, and we're talking about a young kid who missed some kicks. I think we need to get some perspective on where we're going with the game here."

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

He's has started 4 championship games in his time at Bristol.

And started just 1 championship game this season.

He has been on the bench for 10 championship games in his time at Bristol, and 6 of them this season.

The rest was the B&I cup which is basically a championship A league with other Irish A teams

Ah, I'm misinformed then, apologies. In your opinion, would he have got as much game time at Tigers if he'd been there for the equivalent time?

And if not, would the environment, training and game time itself have been more valuable to him at Tigers than Brizzle?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

My own thoughts

Mullan - decent set-piece, decent carrying; needed to be more involved
Hartley - Still can't carry but plenty of tackles and strong set-piece
Cole - " " - ok, coulda tackled more
Launchbury - Possibly a perfect second row performance
Lawes - Not as impressive but still made a fine case for further involvement
Harrison - Strong going forwards, not as good as I was hoping when Wales came forwards - and we'll see whether the 5 penalties stands
Haskell - Typical Hask.
Clifford - ESPN says just two tackles. Very good ball in hand, but can't say I noticed him in defence now its been mentioned.

Youngs - Lovely try to be fair! Still works the fringes well, still passes poorly. Would love to hear Jones' honest opinion.
Ford - Goal kicking diabolical. Came into the game better late on, some nice tactical kicking. Dubious as to whether his head is in the right place.
Yarde - Good return
Burrell - Think the criticism is a little much. Should have been more involved, but did make some nice bursts and I can't remember any obvious mistakes. Did he make any?
Joseph - Bit unconvincing at times, but grew into it well. Could have asked for more help
Watson - Bit impressive
Brown - Nice and solid

Taylor - Ok cameo
Genge - Has the physicality for this, doesn't he?
Hill - Ok cameo
Attwood - Not sure I noticed him too much.
Kvesic - Great breakdown work. The questions will get louder.
Care - Better than Youngs, but...
Devoto - Ok cameo
Daly - Nice cameo

Harrison 5 penalties and Clifford only two tackles....hmmm those stats don't seem right.

Maybe they are but they don't seem it.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ah, I'm misinformed then, apologies. In your opinion, would he have got as much game time at Tigers if he'd been there for the equivalent time?

And if not, would the environment, training and game time itself have been more valuable to him at Tigers than Brizzle?

Who knows, I feel his temperament suits Tigers and Cockers so I think he would of had a shot, it's just the game time before that chance comes. AP teams don't want to really release too youngsters to championship when they are on the verge of the Senior squad as it takes things out of the clubs control, but youngsters need game time a bit of a double she sword for the clubs.

But look at players like Mallinder, Williams, Evans etc etc all have managed to break into the squads at U20.


I also question I loaning youngsters really does help improve the AP quality, look at the teams that make it in the playoffs how many have loaned AP players?

 

[ratsapprentice]

"What strikes me in this press conference is that we've beaten Wales by five tries and we're talking about a guy who can't kick a few goals.

"It just shows the negative reaction in English rugby and I find it quite sad to be honest. When do you score five tries against Wales?

"They're at literally full strength and we're missing 11 players, and we're talking about a young kid who missed some kicks. I think we need to get some perspective on where we're going with the game here."

Could not agree more.

 

[welshglory]

The sad truth for Wales is Gatland's way has brought success from a very limited pool of players. He's looked at the pool and said playing Warrenball is the best way to success from the players available to him with their skill set and decision making. Getting a coach to suddenly play the "Wales" historical beautiful game is not imo going to make Wales world beaters.

And the Argentinians needed a few beatings in the Rugby Championship to get to the level they needed to to beat the Irish the way they did in that QF.

You know i actually have exactly the same line of thinking. Gatland has even said in the press that he's using the most out of the players he's got available to play his game plan to win be successful. I suppose majority of Welsh fans and i have a very romanticised view of how we should be playing . But you know what, i believe we can return to those ways in the future. It is in heart of the way you're brought up to play the game in the nation.

The promising thing is that the Academy system has now fully settled, just like it has in England. The future players are looking very promising having won 6 nations ***les and coming close to the World Champs.
However, steps need to be made to fully utilise the player pool. I think a complete restructure is needed at Pro 12 level and in the Welsh Premiership. Fundamentally we need our best players to be playing the highest quality competition they can, so reducing the Pro 12 fixtures and condensing the squads would be a way to start. Underneath that we need our best Academy players, young prospects from the leagues and domestic late bloomers to play high quality competition before going up into the elite level. Reformat the Welsh Premiership or run an A team competition running underneath the current season. I would also look at making sure that at youth level all the way up to the start of academies, teams are focusing on skill and technical ability. We need our players to be technically proficient to go with that desire to throw the ball around.

 

[Peat]

Harrison 5 penalties and Clifford only two tackles....hmmm those stats don't seem right.

Maybe they are but they don't seem it.

The stats at this point are a bit inaccurate, hence me saying if the 5 penalties stands.

I really don't remember Clifford in defence now they've forced me to think about it though.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Fair to Eddie on his comments about Ford.

I do like how he tackles the media head on.

thought he did extremely well. I thought he was brilliant, really good. I've seen Tiger Woods miss putts and Michael Jordan miss jump shots, everyone has a bad day. He had a bad day kicking, but I thought the rest of his play was brilliant," Jones said.

"Bottom line is we scored five tries, one was a big "how's your mother", and the others four of the backs scored them. If you score four against Wales your fly-half's doing something right.

"I didn't hear [the booing] to be honest. That's not very nice is it. We've got to be careful of that in rugby because that's what's defined the game. That shouldn't happen.

"I don't talk to him about his kicking, he'll work it out himself. Good players work it out themselves. He's got Jonny [Wilkinson] to call on if he needs some advice. He's a good player George.

"He's a tough boy. I'm not worried about him, he'll be fine and he's a fantastic rugby player. Everyone has experiences which aren't pleasant but he'll be fine.

"What strikes me in this press conference is that we've beaten Wales by five tries and we're talking about a guy who can't kick a few goals.

"It just shows the negative reaction in English rugby and I find it quite sad to be honest. When do you score five tries against Wales?

"They're at literally full strength and we're missing 11 players, and we're talking about a young kid who missed some kicks. I think we need to get some perspective on where we're going with the game here."

Ignore all that - Jones is just doing what any decent manager does and backing his man in public.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ignore all that - Jones is just doing what any decent manager does and backing his man in public.

Not sure it's as simple as that...

 

[Peat]

Definitely not that simple.

They didn't score a point for a whole half and only had two penalty shots at goal. We bossed territory and possession throughout the game. We scored 5 tries. That doesn't happen without the half-backs doing something right. And some of Ford's later kicks for territory were imperious.

I doubt he's as completely happy with everything as he makes out - I'm sure there'll be some rough of the tongue later - but there was plenty for him to be pleased about it.

And it is incredibly telling of the English mentality that we're concentrating on this after a very impressive performance. I think he's very serious about trying to shunt that sort of thing away.

p.s. highlights on, Clifford totally falls off Amos once and maybe twice, not great.

 

[ratsapprentice]

And it is incredibly telling of the English mentality that we're concentrating on this after a very impressive performance. I think he's very serious about trying to shunt that sort of thing away.

Completely - the look he gave when answering it was one of "are you being ****ing serious, pal?!".

Is there any reason to think that today's kicking was anything other than an abberation? Unless there is then you should treat it as such.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also remember Jones is looking at 2019. Ford has struggled at the same time as Bath have, something is wrong mentally. I think Jones recognises this and has decided that Ford has the potential to be very good and need support rather than being dumped and potentially ending a veyr promising international career prematurely. Remember what Bath and England were like when Ford took over? It was a breath of fresh air and he IS capable of some sublime play. I guess Jones is looking long term and doesn't want to damage Ford's confidence any more. Having said all that, his form is way way off right now and maybe he would be better being benched for a while. Let him still play but allow Farrell to start.

 

[Tony Manx]

Sorry @TRF-Peat but I do not see that as anyway impressive when compared to what any SH international team would have done to that Welsh team display today!

 

[Peat]

How many of them routinely put more than 5 tries on Wales then?

edit: And win by two clear scores?

 

[SelimNiai]

This game left me like

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none" src="http://i.imgur.com/gaRLuVn.gif">

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ford's flakey, I don't think this is a surprise to anyone - I do like Eddie's attitude of not giving a ****/taking the attention away from underperforming players.
I've not seen the game yet but a convincing win, with many 2nd choice players, over Wales is a brilliant result.
Bin off Haskell and I'd be thrilled.

 

[j'nuh]

And it is incredibly telling of the English mentality that we're concentrating on this after a very impressive performance. I think he's very serious about trying to shunt that sort of thing away.

12 years of underperformance by England has given the fans every right to be guarded in their England expectations.

We're in a fairly low point for NH rugby. England are looking relatively good, but Wales and Ireland have slumped this year, and France don't look like improving from their lowly position. Getting some wins against these teams is nice, but perhaps in line with expectations given the English club renaissance.

I won't be won round by Jones until he posts some good results against SANZAR.

 

[Jimbo87]

I think as a nation England have every right to be critical of Fords kicking display as it turned out it was not relevant, in a typical close match that would have likely cost us the game, so no it isn't sad that we think like that, at international level it simply isn't good enough, not criticising the rest of his game but bottom line is at international level you expect a high percentage kick rate, it's ok to call it a one off but under Eddie he doesn't even take the kicks ordinarily so not enough evidence to call it that.

Farrell at the moment is the best 10 in the premiership he has proven post six nations he has far more to his game than aggression and kicking, he now makes line breaks and takes the ball to the line not to mention how strong he generally is in the tackle.

I know a lot of people love to hate the guy but come on he's been a big part of a team that have now won back to back ap ***les and the European maybe it's time he was given a break, possibly Ashton to although I am not as convinced on him and no I am actually not a sarries fan!

one final point if kicking is so irrelevant and easy to gloss over why is cips not in the lineup he is far more of an attacking threat than Ford, it's simply a question of poor goal kicking that lets him down.

 

[Peat]

Of course people should be critical of Ford's goal kicking. It wasn't good enough.

But that's all that needs saying. Everyone has off days.

Instead people are ramping it up to be the major story. This is where Eddie's quotes come from, the interviewer having one swing at the question then having another when Eddie batted it away. And then it balloons into the whole chat about whether Ford's in good enough form, whether he's in the right mental place, flakey... and so on. Which is okay here, but once it goes into the media, its just counter-productive and starts to overshadow the good story. And that's something we've seen time and time again in this country in sport after sport.

Jimbo, as for your final point, my guess is Jones disagrees that Ford is a lesser attacking threat than Cipriani.


J'nuh - You can be guarded and celebrate the good times while they're here. They're not mutually exclusive. I'd agree with not judging - although I'm getting tempted to declare myself positive - but that doesn't change that the game went about as well as possible.