England V Wales - 29th May

[Which Tyler]

OOoh - Is Daly the new Slade/Itoje now? practically perfect in every way; who can do no wrong and any errors made simply didn't happen?

We have a new messiah people

 

[Every Time Ref]

You can always find errors in a player's performance even a very good performance. And if you have already decided you don't like that player you can list them to build a case against him.

JJ also timed a pass nicely to enable Watson to score a try. Making or not making that pass really could be the difference between winning and losing a game.

The long range kick thinks is useful to have, but let's not make too much of it. How often does it really happen? How many points per game has Daly taken out of penalties in the 55-65m range?

Edit: Peat, re "deserves a shot" - only thing I'd add is that players knowing that if they really make a case they'll be given the chance to prove they are the best option, as opposed to being a closed shop, encourages competition and improves the whole squad.

 

[Tony Manx]

You can always find errors in a player's performance even a very good performance. And if you have already decided you don't like that player you can list them to build a case against him.

JJ also timed a pass nicely to enable Watson to score a try. Making or not making that pass really could be the difference between winning and losing a game.

The long range kick thinks is useful to have, but let's not make too much of it. How often does it really happen? How many points per game has Daly taken out of penalties in the 55-65m range?

Edit: Peat, re "deserves a shot" - only thing I'd add is that players knowing that if they really make a case they'll be given the chance to prove they are the best option, as opposed to being a closed shop, encourages competition and improves the whole squad.

"Deserves a shot" - only additional comment is it was argued at some stage that Lancaster did not doing enough of it being a cause of not having enough experienced players to cover injuries/loss of form?!

 

[Which Tyler]

I'll be honest - I don't remember Lancaster being criticised for not giving players a shot when they earned it.
He was massively, and rightly criticised for persevering with players who had proven they weren't up to it.

I personally think that players "deserve a shot" by being clearly, consistently and more-or-less unanimously better than the incumbent. Do that, and you deserve a shot... from the bench - do it again there in you'll take the shirt after 2-3 matches. Otherwise, you get your chance by injury / loss of form for the incumbent.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'll be honest - I don't remember Lancaster being criticised for not giving players a shot when they earned it.
He was massively, and rightly criticised for persevering with players who had proven they weren't up to it.

I personally think that players "deserve a shot" by being clearly, consistently and more-or-less unanimously better than the incumbent. Do that, and you deserve a shot... from the bench - do it again there in you'll take the shirt after 2-3 matches. Otherwise, you get your chance by injury / loss of form for the incumbent.

I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb, but completely goes against Eddie's swapping of Youngs and Care

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think it depends on the incumbent - if the incumbent is a proven international, fit and on form, and you are untried then no amount of good Prem performances gives you the right to his shirt

 

[Which Tyler]

I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb, but completely goes against Eddie's swapping of Youngs and Care

All forms of common sense have long since flown out of the window when your options are Care and Youngs.
The only excuse for that is that he was (and still is) bound by Burt's EPS squad; and had more urgent requirements than replacing those 2 (and Ashton). He only has this tour left to be able to use that excuse; and realistically, they're the only 2 SHs we have with international experience; so one of them will basically have to stay in his first EPS-from-scratch.

ETR makes a good point as well; though I could grandfather that into my point on getting your chance through form of the incumbent.

 

[Timbo]

An additional consideration re the Daly/Joseph debate is the importance of the 23 shirt. How many times has Barrett come on for the All Blacks with 20 or 30 mins to go, in a variety of different positions, and broken a game open with his pace and footballing ability. I really see Daly as our answer to that.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Daly certainly is more a utility back than JJ. Unfortunately being able to cover many positions makes you an ideal benching option.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Eddie did say he's trained with Daly at 11-15, so looks like that how he views him as well.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Well it looks like he's sticking with JJ at 13 then. It's going to be interesting seeing who he goes with at 12. I reckon he'll go for Slade as he showed with the 6 Nations that he likes having a play making 12, but that may also mean he sticks with the Ford 10, Faz 12 combo. Or to combat whichever of their 110kg centres Cheika chooses to put at 12, he could go with Te'o. Don't really think Burrell has a chance at starting but I don't think it could be ruled out.

 

[Which Tyler]

Daly certainly is more a utility back than JJ. Unfortunately being able to cover many positions makes you an ideal benching option.

Yes and no.
Daly covers OC, wing and FB; whilst JJ only covers OC and wing.
However, we seem to be starting with 2 wingers who can already cover FB; so don't really need that as a bench option; so I don't think it makes him better suited for the bench than JJ.
I think that as and when Manu is fit; the bench spot is his, covering IC, OC and wing. Yes, I'm still hoping for a ball player starting at IC - ideally one called Slade.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Yes and no.
Daly covers OC, wing and FB; whilst JJ only covers OC and wing.
However, we seem to be starting with 2 wingers who can already cover FB; so don't really need that as a bench option; so I don't think it makes him better suited for the bench than JJ.
I think that as and when Manu is fit; the bench spot is his, covering IC, OC and wing. Yes, I'm still hoping for a ball player starting at IC - ideally one called Slade.

I know this is a pretty useless comment, but JJ can also cover fullback. For his fist England cap he came off the bench to play there.

 

[Peat]

Edit: Peat, re "deserves a shot" - only thing I'd add is that players knowing that if they really make a case they'll be given the chance to prove they are the best option, as opposed to being a closed shop, encourages competition and improves the whole squad.

Completely right but for me, there is a caveat that the shot will only come when its the best thing for the team. The shop open and closes when it wants, not when the player wants. Daly will have to wait for Joseph to get injured or lose form. Or there to be a very pressing need for a 65m goal kicker.

Things are different once you're in the shop though. If you're absolutely sure that Daly is just as good an international as Joseph, then its a lot easier to swap them around based on form (see Youngs and Care).

Competition for places is usually good though, and the energy you get from new players on a hot streak trying to prove themselves can really lift a team. I think that might have been why we smashed Wales tbh; our players were playing for a lot more than theirs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I know this is a pretty useless comment, but JJ can also cover fullback. For his fist England cap he came off the bench to play there.

Nah, Foden was on the wing and went to FB.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Foden for England 9

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think it depends on the incumbent - if the incumbent is a proven international, fit and on form, and you are untried then no amount of good Prem performances gives you the right to his shirt

Agreed, although there is also a succession planning aspect, which 5 minutes off the bench here and there doesn't really satisfy. Last thing we want is a post 2003 situation all over again.

 

[Peat]

Agreed, although there is also a succession planning aspect, which 5 minutes off the bench here and there doesn't really satisfy. Last thing we want is a post 2003 situation all over again.

True but we're fairly safe there for now. Although sudden injuries at 2, 3, 6 or 7 could result in a slightly risky adjustment process at the moment. 15 too to be really nitpicky.

 

[Every Time Ref]

In theory you'd love to give second choice players starts in less important games, but in reality at international level all games are important, and even the "lesser" games (against Italy for eg) most coaches decide that continuity / points difference are more important than giving players a run out.

The All Blacks manage to do produce backups with 30 caps because a) the depth of player base they produce is phenomenal and b) they're so much better than everyone else that playing a second choice matters less, but the rest of us mere mortals have to fight tooth and nail for every international win and can't risk second-stringers most of the time.

Actually, at international level injuries probably account for a relatively decent level of opportunity opened up to second-stringers/potential first choices even without active decisions to drop players.

 

[Timbo]

Yes and no.
Daly covers OC, wing and FB; whilst JJ only covers OC and wing.
However, we seem to be starting with 2 wingers who can already cover FB; so don't really need that as a bench option; so I don't think it makes him better suited for the bench than JJ.
I think that as and when Manu is fit; the bench spot is his, covering IC, OC and wing. Yes, I'm still hoping for a ball player starting at IC - ideally one called Slade.

There's no definitive evidence at this point, but I do feel as though Daly brings more of a game breaking quality off the bench. I think I feel that way because when I see Barrett in broken field play, usually late on in games, he does remind me so much of Daly. And Barrett is the best 23 in the world for mine.