English summer rugby

[Aristodemus]

Flood was robbed from his starting spot at the 2011 WC, I personally prefer Flood to Farrell as a starter but I can see the strength of starting Burns with Farrell on the bench. Youngs and Flood have been the half back pair that has featured in some of Englands best performances recently. He isn't finished yet.

 

[j'nuh]

I don't believe Flood has developed at all that much in the last two years. When in form, he's a great player to have. When out of form, he's average.

Burns hasn't hit his peak. He's been steadily improving year-on-year. The progression is really clear. He's slowly bulking out and improving his tackling, increasing his kicking percentage, building his game management etc. As far as I can tell, every single part of his game is improving. If there's barely anything between Flood and Burns now, why not stick by Burns, give him the reins and the experience, and see just how far we can develop the guy before 2015? The best part is, if he's not clearly the best by 2015, then Flood has a ton of experience to call upon to come back into the set-up.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I wouldn't want Flood. I think he has had his chance and not taken it. I'd rather we get younger players in who haven't yet had the chance than wait for someone like Flood to show they are the best for that position. Time spent waiting for Flood to own the shirt is time another, possibly better player isn't getting a chance.

Sticking with the old guard is what caused a lot of England's slide since 2003. We have older players who consistently perform ok but who block out younger players from showing what they can do and then when the older players finally pack it in, our younger players have had too little exposure. It wouldn't be too bad retaining older players who were top quality but a large chunk of our older players weren't that much better than the younger players they were preventing from having a shot in the team.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Meh,
I'd rather Flood than Farrell every day of the year. Flood fluctuates between good and average, Farrell between average and terrible.
It's obvious that Burns is on his way to being first choice 10 (if Lancaster is sane) and I can't wait, it's farrell I don't particularly want around.

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[ratsapprentice]

The difference between Farrell and Flood is that the latter has shown his hand, and it isn't good enough to be an integral part of a top three team.
Farrell hasn't shown what his top level is, I don't think his best game will be anywhere near where some people seem to think it will be (certainly nothing more than average in most areas).
I agree with most people that Burns will be the clear frontrunner in the not too distant future, even if a lot of people are already starting to hype him up massively.

 

[Aristodemus]

I also think looking at the long term George Ford is an option too. I don't like Farrell though and Flood has shown much more in a England shirt than you are giving him credit for Rats. Burns is getting hyped but I don't think him being hailed as England best fly-half is undeserved.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm reserving judgement on Ford - he had a crap season but it's not uncommon for players to have a second-season-hangover after bursting on the scene. Will be interesting to see how he goes at Bath.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Ford clearly just didn't enjoy being at Leicester, the same way Mickey Young didn't.
It seems some players thrive there, others hate it.
I'm really looking forward to him getting decent game-time.

Hopefully he and Eastmond can develope a good partnership, given they share a good understanding of league.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Will he get a lot though? I know his dad's on the staff but Heathcote is far better at the moment. Not sure Ford counts as a league background considering he gave it up at 15 - though I suppose being in academies counts for something.

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[ratsapprentice]

I think he'll get significantly more than he had last season. He is the only FH who Bath can realistically guarantee will be there next season, so they'll want him to be experienced should that situation arise.
I don't think Ford played as badly as some people seem to remember, aside from his kicking being decidedly dodgy he was decent.
I know he isn't a league player, but I'd think he'd understand where Kyle is coming from better than most union 10s.

I think he was really unsettled at Leicester, for whatever reason. So hopefully he can get his head right.
If he can do that I reckon he might find some form.

 

[Draggs]

Will he get a lot though? I know his dad's on the staff but Heathcote is far better at the moment. Not sure Ford counts as a league background considering he gave it up at 15 - though I suppose being in academies counts for something.

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See, I don't think Heathcote is exceptional. Decent, but with him selecting Scotland, I think Bath would use their foreign spots on other positions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

See, I don't think Heathcote is exceptional. Decent, but with him selecting Scotland, I think Bath would use their foreign spots on other positions.

Neither do I, but he's the far better option between the two at the moment - Ford really was poo last season. The flakiest of the flaky.

 

[Draggs]

Neither do I, but he's the far better option between the two at the moment - Ford really was poo last season. The flakiest of the flaky.

Like a young Ryan Lamb. Don't forget Gav...

 

[j'nuh]

Ford will only get decent time at Bath if he can prove his goal kicking, or if there's someone else in the team does it for him. Heathcote is an incredible goal kicker. I think there was a point in the season where he'd gotten together 20+ in a row. And he kicks well from range too. By comparison, I've seen Ford miss sitters. So I reckon Henson must come in for the goal kicking at 12/13/15 if Ford starts.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ford will only get decent time at Bath if he can prove his goal kicking, or if there's someone else in the team does it for him. Heathcote is an incredible goal kicker. I think there was a point in the season where he'd gotten together 20+ in a row. And he kicks well from range too. By comparison, I've seen Ford miss sitters. So I reckon Henson must come in for the goal kicking at 12/13/15 if Ford starts.

Eastmond can kick :wink2:

I don't think Ford is a bad kicker, or at least it wasn't an issue until last season.
I think he was shattered mentally, which was the main reason for him leaving.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Like a young Ryan Lamb.

If you mixed Ryan Lamb, Brock James and Rory Best....

 

[Draggs]

If you mixed Ryan Lamb, Brock James and Rory Best....

Freddie M as well.

 

[Peat]

Eastmond can kick :wink2:

I don't think Ford is a bad kicker, or at least it wasn't an issue until last season.
I think he was shattered mentally, which was the main reason for him leaving.

Not true. His goal kicking arguably cost us the 2011 JWC - his decision making wasn't great either imo. There is a lot for Ford to work on. I am already mentally preparing myself to be disappointed when it comes to the hype about him.

And I cannot disagree strongly enough with people here about Flood - and if the goal is to prepare a team for 2015, then the team for experimentation is past, and its time to give our strongest team a run for as much of the next two years, and also ideally we should be picking guys who will be peaking then - which is Flood, and not Burns or Farrell.

Realistically, I don't think we're going to win 2015. We've started building too late.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Wasn't aware of that, it's interesting to know...
It's fair to say that so far IRB young player of the year winners always live up to the hype, or fail miserably.

I agree we've starting building to late, suddenly halting development and ring fencing the squad would be catastrophic imo.
As soon as you start implementing a systematic development cycle you handicap yourself. You want players to be coming and going constantly, otherwise you end up having to replace half of your squad at once.

 

[j'nuh]

Not true. His goal kicking arguably cost us the 2011 JWC - his decision making wasn't great either imo. There is a lot for Ford to work on. I am already mentally preparing myself to be disappointed when it comes to the hype about him.

And I cannot disagree strongly enough with people here about Flood - and if the goal is to prepare a team for 2015, then the team for experimentation is past, and its time to give our strongest team a run for as much of the next two years, and also ideally we should be picking guys who will be peaking then - which is Flood, and not Burns or Farrell.

Realistically, I don't think we're going to win 2015. We've started building too late.

The time for experimentation isn't past. Just look at the "inexperienced" Welsh squad for 2011, who were a red card away from a final. Warburton, Lydiate, North, Faletau, Davies, Priestland, Roberts and Halfpenny, all starters in the loss vs. France, were younger than Burns will be at the start of the 2015 WC. Add Lloyd Williams, Scott Williams and Bradley Davies if you include the bench. Of these, only Halfpenny and Roberts were introduced into the Welsh squad more than two years in advance of the tournament (like Burns was).

Similar story for Australia: O'Connor, Beale, Genia, Quade Cooper, McCabe, Pocock, Anthony Fainga'a, starters in the loss vs. New Zealand in the semis, were all younger at the start of the 2011 WC than Burns will be at the start of the 2013 WC. Kepu was a month older. All but Pocock, O'Connor, Cooper and Genia had fewer than 20 caps. Ioane and Samo, also starters in the loss, had fewer than 20 caps too.

Yeah, okay, New Zealand were very experienced. But that was a golden generation full of players who had been on the radar for years.

There are two 6Ns (10 caps), two AIs (at least 6 caps) and two mid-year tests to play before the WC (at least 6 caps), so Burns could be up to 25 caps before the WC comes around if given the chance. In fact, he could be sitting on a lot more caps if he had been given the chance earlier. 25 years old, 25 caps. Not too bad if you ask me.

As for form, how could you possibly know who will be in better form in 2015? Tuilagi was the best performing Englishman in the last WC, at just 20 years old and with 1 cap to his name! Flood isn't showing signs of improvement - it seems to me as if he's already maxed out his potential. Burns is about as good as he is right now, but has a lot more scope for improvement than Flood does.