Examples of biased refereeing in World Cup knock out stages?

[PacDuran]

Sorry to open up old wounds but I opened this account to ask this question specifically about the 2011 RWC final. I have been savaged on reddit for suggesting that Craig Joubert put in an absolutely awful performance, and basically ****** his pants, and that France should have had multiple kickable penalties in the last 30 minutes of that game. I thought France (though a bit of a joke earlier in the tournament) outplayed the AB's handily, and probably deserved the win.
I love the AB's and France, my two favourite teams to watch, but something about the way that game unfolded really rubbed me up the wrong way.

Another prime example is the 2003 RWC final where the ice cold Elton Flatley slotted a couple of place kicks that England were VERY VERY unlucky to concede. I also thought here that the ref was trying to hand the cup to the home team.

Again in 2007 with Wayne Barnes failing to see the most blatant forward pass in history by Damien Traille for France' go ahead try.

Am I just a buffoonish conspiracy theorist fool or is there a trend to be seen here?

Bonus Question: What do Wales have to fear from this Jerome Garces (Never heard of him btw) character? Will we see some home cooking?

 

[jflintoff]

Sorry to open up old wounds but I opened this account to ask this question specifically about the 2011 RWC final. I have been savaged on reddit for suggesting that Craig Joubert put in an absolutely awful performance, and basically ****** his pants, and that France should have had multiple kickable penalties in the last 30 minutes of that game. I thought France (though a bit of a joke earlier in the tournament) outplayed the AB's handily, and probably deserved the win.
I love the AB's and France, my two favourite teams to watch, but something about the way that game unfolded really rubbed me up the wrong way.

Another prime example is the 2003 RWC final where the ice cold Elton Flatley slotted a couple of place kicks that England were VERY VERY unlucky to concede. I also thought here that the ref was trying to hand the cup to the home team.

Again in 2007 with Wayne Barnes failing to see the most blatant forward pass in history by Damien Traille for France' go ahead try.

Am I just a buffoonish conspiracy theorist fool or is there a trend to be seen here?

Bonus Question: What do Wales have to fear from this Jerome Garces (Never heard of him btw) character? Will we see some home cooking?

Don't get started on Wayne Barnes - worst international referee around currently.
I can't say for the 2003 WC, I didn't study the game too much after the AB's went out lol.

Garces is having a pretty good tournament so far and there is a lot of pressure on the referees going into this WC with many specific things to focus on.

Again, the referee plays a massive part of who can win the game. I just hope the AB's don't see Barnes again for the rest of the WC.

 

[Mcfadden]

Oh boy, this thread is asking for trouble!

But if I were to do a bit of stirring, I would suggest if France were so hard done by in 2011, according to the critics, isn't it also fair to analyze things holistically? Harinordoquy eye gouged McCaw on the deck, and there is photographic evidence of that. Nothing was said of it, nothing was done about it because we won. Automatic red card though in my opinion. It was 10 times worse than what Galarza did recently. Funny how it's the same old nations who tend to do that **** when the heat goes on hey?

2007 is what it is. I don't tend to bring it up unless I see other posters grizzle about 2011. What makes me laugh is they then turn around with a faux innocence and say "history? what are you bringing history up for!?" There's a lot the ABs could have done better as well and simply didn't - our approach before we even arrived there was wrong.

 

[jflintoff]

Oh boy, this thread is asking for trouble!

But if I were to do a bit of stirring, I would suggest if France were so hard done by in 2011, according to the critics, isn't it also fair to analyze things holistically? Harinordoquy eye gouged McCaw on the deck, and there is photographic evidence of that. Nothing was said of it, nothing was done about it because we won. Automatic red card though in my opinion. It was 10 times worse than what Galarza did recently. Funny how it's the same old nations who tend to do that **** when the heat goes on hey?

2007 is what it is. I don't tend to bring it up unless I see other posters grizzle about 2011. What makes me laugh is they then turn around with a faux innocence and say "history? what are you bringing history up for!?" There's a lot the ABs could have done better as well and simply didn't - our approach before we even arrived there was wrong.

I think as a religious AB's fan I think these painful experiences will always come up and it's certainly how people approach it is the key.

It is history and what has happened has happened. Moving forward there are pros and cons to the above statement I made about 2007. TMO ruling can clearly overturn already made referee calls (not necessarily what I agree with) but this will rule out bad judgement calls.

Take the Fijian try this WC, the referee called the try but then it was overturned. I think if the TMO is there and the referee hasn't seen the grounding of the ball clearly, use the TMO rather than be whistle happy and then go back on your decision.

Thoughts?

 

[Tony Manx]

This is THE most ridiculous thread and goes to the root of rugby union and how we differentiate ourselves from football supporters!

Anyone who believes a ref is biased needs to ask themselves really?

 

[OverGore]

France got severly robbed by Tony Spreadbury in 2007 opening game against argentina. It was showned he didnt notice at least 30 fouls from argentina. This settled his carreer and ended his world cup after this game.
Seeing Garces forgettin stuff for england yesterday, with a big smile to the welsh, reminded me a lot of that game in 2007. With a great pleasure.

Also, who needs to ask himself if britanic refs have or had a problem with France...

 

[Tony Manx]

In 1860, there was a foul when Geronimo was outrageously offside against Custor! Really?

 

[OverGore]

1991...1995 semi vs south africa to make the dream come true...

 

[barthelemy]

Refereeing has always been an issue in Rugby. This is the nature of this game to have a referee that could be deciding the outcome of a game. Offside, ruck...A lot of situations where a referee can take a decision that would not be wrong for a specific situation but he won't have the same decision minutes later for the same situation. Because he can't have an eye anywhere, because he does not have the same position on another same situation.


As well Rugby has different roots if we look at countries. In UK, this is an university and educated sport originally. In France, this is a sport of working class people. Rugby during long times was much more violent in France compare to UK and as a consequence, british and irish referees were seeing the frenchies as being violent in their own perspective and up bringing. Frenchies were finding the refereeing very unfair in the 80s towards the french because of this violence that was seen as normal in French rugby but as abnormal in British rugby because of its different roots in different countries.

I'm not even talking about differences between northern hemisphere and southen hemisphere rugby culture that makes it even more difficult.

And to finish, as the referee has a quite strong control on the outcome of the game, you tend to think that his upbringing could have an influence on his way to refer. Does Garces thinking " ho I love the french team, if we could have the english out of our way for the ***le, lets help it"..or Nigel Owens had maybe an uncle who died in world war 2 because of these french surrending monkeys.Stupid examples obviously but it is illustrating that we do not know to what extent the education of one individual will play on his way to refer.

At the end, we have to accept that the refereeing in Rugby is not perfect and could have its bias. However, even if I'm the first to criticize the referee, I think we should just give them some credit and when these guys are going on the pitch, they are not so much thinking in terms of nations but in terms of game and doing their job as good as they believe it should be.

 

[smartcooky]

Again in 2007 with Wayne Barnes failing to see the most blatant forward pass in history by Damien Traille for France' go ahead try.

The missed forward pass wasn't the issue in 2007 (although it didn't help). The real issue was Barnes failure, time after time after time, to spot blatant offsides at the ruck and in the midfield. For the last 60 minutes of that match, New Zealand had 75% territory and 66% possession, and yet, depending on whose match analysis you read, Barnes missed between 22 and 45 penalisable infringements. If you believe Barnes, then the French, under enormous territorial pressure, did not infringe once in those last 60 minutes; they were not penalised once, not even a penalty advantage. Its not hard to understand why Graham Henry, after seeing the match analysis, thought there had been match fixing. The reality is that there wasn't. What had really happened is that Wayne Barnes was a very inexperienced referee (he only had two Tier 1 internationals under his belt at the beginning of the 2007 RWC. He was the RFU's "Golden Boy" of refereeing and they were determined to have him in there. Consequently, he was chucked in at the deep end, the most inexperienced referee to ever be appointed to a RWC knock-out game, and he froze under the pressure like a possum in the headlights.

Also, there had been a memo put out to referees prior to the tournament that the Touch Judges were not to call in anything to the referee other than foul play.

NOTE: They were Touch Judges at that stage; they didn't become Assistant Referees until 2008/09

However, NONE of the things I have listed above were the reasons we lost. They were contributing factors perhaps, but the real reason we lost because we did not have a plan for encountering a "Blind Freddy" referee. From about half way through the second half, it should have become apparent to the team leaders that Barnes was never going to penalise France. We were making territory quite easily with the ball in hand, we just kept battering a French defence that was prepared to infringe to stop us scoring a try, and were allowed to do so with impunity. They needed to take the game out of Barnes' hands, and into their own, and start turning that pressure into points by taking dropped goal attempts.

What worries me a bit now, is that we still don't appear to have learned that lesson. Carter, for all his skills as a kicker, is a lousy dropped goal taker. Do we have someone in the team who is really good at dropped goals? If we do, I can't think who that might be.

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...Harinordoquy eye gouged McCaw on the deck, and there is photographic evidence of that. Nothing was said of it, nothing was done about it because we won. Automatic red card though in my opinion. It was 10 times worse than what Galarza did recently.

It was Aurelian Rougerie not Harry Ordinary

 

[chikwa chibwe]

Wayne barnes

 

[korn1]

Refs make bad calls :unsure: But Bias no I think not. They are human.

 

[shtove]

No such thing as a biased referee, unless you have evidence of discretion exceeded for reward. Otherwise, it's a matter of interpretation of fact, and the TMO is there to supply a live appeal system. But the camera that records the event is inherently biased - film class 101 - so it's complicated.

And the 2007 pass was a good 'un.

 

[Five Meters Out]

That's a smart posting Smartcooky Boy.
In 2007 v France, the All Blacks allowed an inexperienced/caught in the headlights Ref to have an influence on the game. I think they've acknowledged that.
I don't believe Barnes was consciously biased that day and don't feel Ref's are biased generally. However they can have very bad games - bit like players I guess.

All blacks have another 1/4 Final appointment coming up against one of two very passionate teams. All blacks coming off three games against lower tier teams. I for one am cacking myself right now, just thinking about it. I will be more at ease if we have a southern hemisphere Ref in that game.

 

[Cookies]

What about that red card at the start of a game during the 2011 RWC? I can't remember who it was, I think it was the Welsh captain. Complete ******** that was.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The missed forward pass wasn't the issue in 2007 (although it didn't help). The real issue was Barnes failure, time after time after time, to spot blatant offsides at the ruck and in the midfield. For the last 60 minutes of that match, New Zealand had 75% territory and 66% possession, and yet, depending on whose match analysis you read, Barnes missed between 22 and 45 penalisable infringements. If you believe Barnes, then the French, under enormous territorial pressure, did not infringe once in those last 60 minutes; they were not penalised once, not even a penalty advantage. Its not hard to understand why Graham Henry, after seeing the match analysis, thought there had been match fixing. The reality is that there wasn't. What had really happened is that Wayne Barnes was a very inexperienced referee (he only had two Tier 1 internationals under his belt at the beginning of the 2007 RWC. He was the RFU's "Golden Boy" of refereeing and they were determined to have him in there. Consequently, he was chucked in at the deep end, the most inexperienced referee to ever be appointed to a RWC knock-out game, and he froze under the pressure like a possum in the headlights.

Also, there had been a memo put out to referees prior to the tournament that the Touch Judges were not to call in anything to the referee other than foul play.

NOTE: They were Touch Judges at that stage; they didn't become Assistant Referees until 2008/09

However, NONE of the things I have listed above were the reasons we lost. They were contributing factors perhaps, but the real reason we lost because we did not have a plan for encountering a "Blind Freddy" referee. From about half way through the second half, it should have become apparent to the team leaders that Barnes was never going to penalise France. We were making territory quite easily with the ball in hand, we just kept battering a French defence that was prepared to infringe to stop us scoring a try, and were allowed to do so with impunity. They needed to take the game out of Barnes' hands, and into their own, and start turning that pressure into points by taking dropped goal attempts.

What worries me a bit now, is that we still don't appear to have learned that lesson. Carter, for all his skills as a kicker, is a lousy dropped goal taker. Do we have someone in the team who is really good at dropped goals? If we do, I can't think who that might be.

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It was Aurelian Rougerie not Harry Ordinary

Spot on that is what I thought when I watched it he match live on tv in 2007. Leadership in pressure situations is what really defines teams who win the RWC. Richie was pretty raw as an AB captain at that point and to be fair the team at that point was just so used to winning, that this was a match where they failed to think there way out of situation where they were up against it.

England 2003 had it in spades even when they thought Andre Watson was unfairly penalising them at scrum time against an underpowered Australian scrum. But it wasn't just Johnson as leader, he was surrounded by leaders across the team who could make the right decisions - Vickery, dallaglio, hill, Back, Dawson, Wilko, Catt, Greenwood, Robinson. Even on the bench - Jason Leonard coming on to steady the scrum when Watson kept penalising Vickery.

This is what makes me doubt this England team, a leadership deficit is apparent across the team - as seen on Saturday's match. Indiscipline throughout the match at the breakdown and the final decision not to kick at goal. That comes from having decision makers across all pods of the team who can think clearly under pressure and more often than not pick the right options, which ultimately lead the the team to victory.

I think the ABs will have at least be such match during the knockout stages where they will properly come under the cosh and then we'll see if this AB team have learnt from 2007. Win that and I think it'll be very hard to stop the ABs winning the ***le.

DC might not be in the league of JW when it comes to drop goals, but I remember twice when he scored vital drop goals for the ABs - one v Ireland in the 2nd test to win it and also v South Africa at Soccer stadium; both matches back in 2012. So he can do it and it doesn't have to be pretty it just has to go over.

 

[smartcooky]

What about that red card at the start of a game during the 2011 RWC? I can't remember who it was, I think it was the Welsh captain. Complete ******** that was.

That was Wales v France, Sam Waburton was red carded for a spear tackle on Vincent Clerc and it was the correct decision.

Warburton grasped Clerc around the legs, lifted him off the ground, tipped him over, drove him head-first towards the ground and then dropped him at the last moment. No matter what angle you view it from, nor how many times you watch it, this is a red card offence, all day long, every day of the week.

 

[Cookies]

Ah yeah. That is pretty bad. I thought it was for a head high or even something as simple as offside.

 

[merlinux]

The ***le of this thread is IMHO wrong. It should say "bad decisions made by referees" instead of "biased refereeing". Unless you have proofs of alleged corruption of a referee , which Im 100% sure nobody here has, this is defamation.

 

[CanKiwi]

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and say that the ref's have a pretty tough job. I think they are under an enormous amount of scrutiny especially based on the outcome after the fact, yet in the middle of active play they are supposed to see all and then come up with a split second ruling based on the current interpretation of the rules.

It seems a shame to involve the TMO so much this WC as I see an inordinate amount of going upstairs this time to ensure they are 'getting it right'. If that is what is needed to make the contest between players more than the 'Blind Freddy' situation then bring it on.

Having said that, all the players and ref's are professionals, the players should be ready to adjust performance to the calls coming from the ref, i.e. the McCaw ability to virtually never take penalties in his half, and to ramp up the steals and turnovers he creates as the game progresses and he learns the style and mood of the ref. This ability by the players should also apply to general attacking techniques and preventing breakdown infringements that can swing the outcome if the rules of the game are applied differently in one contest over another. Kind of like, have a time out and change the game plan halfway thru each 40min of the game.

Just a thought....