Former players turn out for Tier 2 Nations

[Kiwiwomble]

I'm sure this has been talked about before but i couldnt find a specific thread, please merge is so

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11952640

Ma'a Nonu, Victor Vito or Steven Luatua for Samoa and Charles Piutau, Frank Halai to Tonga

thoughts? personally i'm not against it, some rules like only 2 or 3 allowed, maybe for every old cap you need to have an under 20 in the same position to be mentored

It could add a bit more spice to the next world cup, maybe a few more upsets?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

100% against switching nationalities. If you're capped then that should be it.

If our sport followed the rugby league model, it would...

...turn it into as big a laughing stock as international rugby league is.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I feel bad for players like Halai that have got 1 cap for for NZ and will never be able to play international rugby again because of it. Personally I'd be open to a very niche rule of say if you have 5 or less caps and it's been 3 years since being selected in your previous national squad then you can switch. I don't really see the harm in that.

Edit: and you can't become eligible for your new country by residency; must be born there or have a parent of that nation, otherwise it'll just increase the number of mercenaries.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Completely agree, quite barmy - this sort of thing never happened with Wales...

(Nobody mention Howarth, Sinkinson etc.)

 

[nik]

I feel bad for players like Halai that have got 1 cap for for NZ and will never be able to play international rugby again because of it. Personally I'd be open to a very niche rule of say if you have 5 or less caps and it's been 3 years since being selected in your previous national squad then you can switch. I don't really see the harm in that.

Edit: and you can't become eligible for your new country by residency; must be born there or have a parent of that nation, otherwise it'll just increase the number of mercenaries.

I would like to see this happen. No point seeing players who made a name internationally like Nonu, Piutau turning out for tier 2 nations. It should be about players who never selected after 1-5 tests never got the opportunity again. Not players who gave up the opportunity.

 

[Car]

100% against switching nationalities. If you're capped then that should be it.


...turn it into as big a laughing stock as international rugby league is.

I agree (and I'm saying this as someone from a country that could profit from it).

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

You can't have one rule for some and other for everybody else.

Go back a few years. What's to stop the IRFU declaring themselves a tier 2 organization and offering big money to Stephen Moore to come to Ireland, play in a Sevens tournament and declare himself eligible for Ireland despite winning multiple caps for Australia?

Say Lima Sopoaga is offered big money to sign for a French team. He can weigh things up and say he may not play for New Zealand in a World Cup but he can still earn a big pay day and play for Samoa.

That'd make a farce of the proposal, however well intentioned it is.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm not against it but it would have to have some big sanctions to it.
1) Like can't have been capped for 5 years (so they have to miss a RWC) maybe 3 years if it is their country of birth
2) You could only switch once in your career and it has to be to a country where you qualify through birth or blood no residency.
3) Maybe a clause that if it is less than 5 games capped you can move within 3 years aswell.
5) Have it so that country can't be within 5 rankings of the current capped country.
Which would allow Frank Halai to play for Tonga but not the others.

Maybe if the team is ranked 15 or lower even looser sanctions to allow them to play say Flood and Dickson etc if they really wanted to.

You can't have one rule for some and other for everybody else.

Go back a few years. What's to stop the IRFU declaring themselves a tier 2 organization and offering big money to Stephen Moore to come to Ireland, play in a Sevens tournament and declare himself eligible for Ireland despite winning multiple caps for Australia?

Say Lima Sopoaga is offered big money to sign for a French team. He can weigh things up and say he may not play for New Zealand in a World Cup but he can still earn a big pay day and play for Samoa.

That'd make a farce of the proposal, however well intentioned it is.

I'm sure everyone would love for Ireland to take moore but they have to play him....

 

[Kiwiwomble]

You can't have one rule for some and other for everybody else.

Go back a few years. What's to stop the IRFU declaring themselves a tier 2 organization and offering big money to Stephen Moore to come to Ireland, play in a Sevens tournament and declare himself eligible for Ireland despite winning multiple caps for Australia?

Say Lima Sopoaga is offered big money to sign for a French team. He can weigh things up and say he may not play for New Zealand in a World Cup but he can still earn a big pay day and play for Samoa.

That'd make a farce of the proposal, however well intentioned it is.

is there not a definition of tier 2?

 

[FNS]

For me nationalized players should not play for their new nations at all but i came from the only few nations that we dont use foreign players xD

 

[BPM]

I feel bad for players like Halai that have got 1 cap for for NZ and will never be able to play international rugby again because of it. Personally I'd be open to a very niche rule of say if you have 5 or less caps and it's been 3 years since being selected in your previous national squad then you can switch. I don't really see the harm in that.

Edit: and you can't become eligible for your new country by residency; must be born there or have a parent of that nation, otherwise it'll just increase the number of mercenaries.

I agree with all of that. For players like Halai, Saili etc. with less than 5 caps and no realistic chance of being selected again, I can absolutely see the logic. Piutau and Nonu are taking the Mickey though.

As long as it were specific enough to only apply in a relatively small number of cases, I wouldn'r see it being enough of an ongoing issue to cause genuine problems.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i guess if guys like nonu and piatau really just wanted to help out the team they'd get in there as coaches or even just mentors

 

[Goodey]

If players can switch nations it wouldn't help the tier 2 sides, they would face direct competition from other, richer unions to keep the players they already have.

If a semi-retired Nonu can play 5 caps for Samoa then Nanai-Williams can come and play the rest of his career for France.

It'd only hurt the smaller teams in the long run

 

[saulan]

If players can switch nations it wouldn't help the tier 2 sides, they would face direct competition from other, richer unions to keep the players they already have.

If a semi-retired Nonu can play 5 caps for Samoa then Nanai-Williams can come and play the rest of his career for France.

It'd only hurt the smaller teams in the long run

The key difference there is definition of tier 2, France aren't a tier 2 nation so Nanai-Williams wouldn't be able to play for France. It also depends on the stipulations put in place which have been discussed above such as the player only being able to do so if they were born in the country they are switching to etc.

 

[Brigantine]

I can't help feeling this will end up having a link with all the (non-sport) politics around dual-citizenship. Well except in cases where people actually renounce their citizenship etc. of their former country e.g. refugees at the Olympics.

Players can already shop around for a club team. It makes a bit of sense that U20 players still have a chance to switch countries... but otherwise this is just shopping around for the best national team you're good enough to be hired by. You'd think people would know which country they have the strongest connection to *before* they find out which answer would be more convenient for their career.

there is definition of tier 2

I get that in the NZ / Pacific case, it seems like tier 1 and tier 2 international rugby are almost completely different competitions. Internationally, there is a reasonably clear distinction between the 10 tier 1 teams and the rest - *for now*. But if things go well for rugby, that concept is going to get a lot messier in the next 10 years. If your tier classification makes much of a difference to the rules that apply to you, there's gonna be big fights over who gets what classification, and no one will be happy with the outcome.

Maybe a better solution is for more fixtures with barbarian type teams from places like the pacific islands with strong ties to major dual-nationality diaspora. You can show the team people want to see, but without watering down the meaning of playing for your country throughout the rest of the world. B&I Lions type concept, but with teams being e.g. Fiji + worldwide Fijian community.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

if we're broadening this to whats good for for the teir 2 nations then all you have to do is only give RWC qualification to the current champions and the host nations so everyone else has to qualify, AB's have to play all the Pacific island home and away over a 4 year period

 

[mania]

has to be based on some sort of national relationship, eg a blood connection to that nation. eligibility thru residency will just be abused .
tier 1 and 2 is too ambiguous as teams moving in and out of tier 1 & 2 will have the rules changing for them.

why not nonu? he'd be a rich cache of education for samoan players . nonu qualifies thru blood. so what if he played 100+ caps for NZ? he did his time and achieved what he wanted with the ABs but he's still good enough to play international rugby then let him.

 

[mania]

manu wouldnt mind getting their hands on kaino as well

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I can't help feeling this will end up having a link with all the (non-sport) politics around dual-citizenship. Well except in cases where people actually renounce their citizenship etc. of their former country e.g. refugees at the Olympics.

Players can already shop around for a club team. It makes a bit of sense that U20 players still have a chance to switch countries... but otherwise this is just shopping around for the best national team you're good enough to be hired by. You'd think people would know which country they have the strongest connection to *before* they find out which answer would be more convenient for their career.



I get that in the NZ / Pacific case, it seems like tier 1 and tier 2 international rugby are almost completely different competitions. Internationally, there is a reasonably clear distinction between the 10 tier 1 teams and the rest - *for now*. But if things go well for rugby, that concept is going to get a lot messier in the next 10 years. If your tier classification makes much of a difference to the rules that apply to you, there's gonna be big fights over who gets what classification, and no one will be happy with the outcome.

Maybe a better solution is for more fixtures with barbarian type teams from places like the pacific islands with strong ties to major dual-nationality diaspora. You can show the team people want to see, but without watering down the meaning of playing for your country throughout the rest of the world. B&I Lions type concept, but with teams being e.g. Fiji + worldwide Fijian community.

I look forward to the day when Qatar and the UAE are rugby superpowers.

On this suggestion, I oppose it. Any increased flexibility in players moving between nations is a step against spreading rugby into different communities and producing talent across the world.

The number of players eligible for this is minimal outside the Pacific Islands, so I don't see an argument for this strengthening the competitiveness of Tier 2. Fiji are currently knocking on 8th in the world without these rules, which would put them ahead of Tier 1 Italy, Argentina and France. So the status quo isn't catastrophically uncompetitive.

 

[mania]

On this suggestion, I oppose it. Any increased flexibility in players moving between nations is a step against spreading rugby into different communities and producing talent across the world.

i'm all for where the pacific teams get as much help as possible. with the some of the best physical specimens playing the game to date, PI teams should be way better.
seems that all the other teams benefit having islanders in their teams but nothing actually goes back to the islands. time to give back players.
its not as if these players are playing the system , theyre actually islanders that opted to play for other countries for whatever reason, coming back home.