• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

France vs All Blacks (21/11/21) 09.00am NZDT @ Stade de France, Paris

Umaga's Witness

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
1,976
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

Wow, France pretty much faultless and winning with amazing positive rugby

Think the whole game turned on that counter from their own in goal, what should have been an attack scrum for us if we’d managed to tackle ended with being down a man and down another 3 points, killed the momentum we were building

Big take away for the abs for me was the confusion in the backline, so many time we changed directions behind the breakdown giving defense time to come up…at one point when on attack in the second half, smith goes left…Richie steps back behind and tries to go right and passes to Quinn…who then steps left and tries to go that was again! Shocking

Amazing results for world rugby but worrying for rugby in Nz which I feel is struggling with engagement, we’ve put all our eggs in the ab basket…and that might bite us
Richie was awful. I was thinking before this game, and I’m thinking even more so now, that maybe at test level with the nature of some of the defences these days that mckenzie is our best test level ten. What’s good at super rugby level vs what’s good at test level isn’t always the same, sometimes players who aren’t amazing at super are a lot better at international. Think de Allende, he is pretty average at that next level down but great at tests. Maybe damian at ten will be the same. Worth a go against a top defensive side anyway
 

Derpus

Bench Player
Joined
Nov 16, 2017
Messages
927
Country Flag

Australia

Club or Nation

Waratahs

Richie was awful. I was thinking before this game, and I’m thinking even more so now, that maybe at test level with the nature of some of the defences these days that mckenzie is our best test level ten. What’s good at super rugby level vs what’s good at test level isn’t always the same, sometimes players who aren’t amazing at super are a lot better at international. Think de Allende, he is pretty average at that next level down but great at tests. Maybe damian at ten will be the same. Worth a go against a top defensive side anyway
McKenzie sucks. Mo'unga is great - he just sucks when his forwards don't lay a platform for him (like any 10).

I think you have a fairly pedestrian tight 5 at the moment. I actually think the Wallabies have a stronger pack which is part of the reason why i was so annoyed with our passive performances during the Bledisloe. I think the backrow of Hooper, Swinton and Valetini is much better balanced than the NZ backrow which is carrying two opensides, as well.

NZ are there for the taking IMO but we have this huge mental block.
 

Umaga's Witness

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
1,976
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

McKenzie sucks. Mo'unga is great - he just sucks when his forwards don't lay a platform for him (like any 10).

I think you have a fairly pedestrian tight 5 at the moment. I actually think the Wallabies have a stronger pack which is part of the reason why i was so annoyed with our passive performances during the Bledisloe. I think the backrow of Hooper, Swinton and Valetini is much better balanced than the NZ backrow which is carrying two opensides, as well.

NZ are there for the taking IMO but we have this huge mental block.
Well mounga has proven poor against good defence, as has beauden. Anyone can be good against aus. And it’s all very well saying mounga will be good if we get go forward ball, but two things. 1 he hasn’t been; there were go forward ball opportunities that he frankly stuffed up in this game and 2. id Rather we picked the players who could do something without go forward ball, because I’m not sure we are always going to be able to get it, and also the ten has a role in helping us get it. Defences are reorganizing very quickly these days and there are always bodies preventing us getting to the clean quickly.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,245
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Both Richie and bb are afraid to take a hit…so they shovel the ball on or try and step their way out of trouble but often just isolate themselves because the fat guys that will protect the ball can’t keep up…they need to get tougher
 

Alex Anghel

Academy Player
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
129
Country Flag

Romania

Club or Nation

Romania

So, out of the 4 tests against the top-level opposition this year, this Ian Foster-coached ABs side won one game (in the last minute) and lost 3. Outmuscled and outthought. Absolutely showing no signs of progress, neither in the development of players nor in the game's structure. Honestly, completely stunned by the way NZRU managed to sneakily and prematurely extend the current coaching pannels' contract.
 

Umaga's Witness

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
1,976
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

So, out of the 4 tests against the top-level opposition this year, this Ian Foster-coached ABs side won one game (in the last minute) and lost 3. Outmuscled and outthought. Absolutely showing no signs of progress, neither in the development of players nor in the game's structure. Honestly, completely stunned by the way NZRU managed to sneakily and prematurely extend the current coaching pannels' contract.

It’s honestly more shocking that the coaching panel they selected after the World Cup was originally only given two years. That’s not something often done by any country.

Everyone has it completely wrong to think they were ever thinking of hiring Robertson after fosters term came up; I mean I’ve said it before, but i also said it when fosters first contract was signed, the two years thing was so they could consider gatland after he had finished with the lions. Gatlands case for not being the all blacks coach was clearly better than fosters, so they resigned him. They always said they wanted international experience within the coaching panel and Robertson failed to provide that. Foster had plumtree. If brown hadn’t pulled out of the assistant gig I reckon Robertson would have got the job.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,935
there’s not much reason to expect the all blacks to continue their dominance. This current generation of players hasn’t grown with a culture of people who care about rugby, they haven’t played rugby in the schoolyard or the backyard like they used to. We no longer have a style starkly different from the northern hemisphere. We don’t have the same money in the system as france and england . The northern hemisphere has been improving as Southern Hemisphere coaches and players have gone north over the last twenty years, combining Southern Hemisphere skills and styles with that of the northern hemisphere, plus money fueled professionalism. The player base in NZ has gone down, although our pacific population has increased significantly which I’m sure will keep us competitive at the top level for some time to come. Competitive doesn’t mean dominant though.

Our dominance over the past twenty years was due to us being most well equipped for professional rugby, having already had a number of coaches with innovative and professional approaches in the amateur days, and players who had grown up in a rugby dominant culture which disappeared with the advent of professionalism meaning the majority of people stopped watching rugby because they had to pay for it, and with the internet age there became a greater variety of ways people could feel part of a community. In all tier one nations professional rugby has been around for long enough now that the top players, while in school, would have been working on their skill sets with the idea that they could play rugby professionally. So the skill gap is no longer there.
Obviously I bow to your greater knowledge but did your current crop really not play in the school yard or grow up in a culture that doesn’t care about rugby? I find that hard to believe (not in a doubting you kind of way just surprising)

For me it’s pretty simple, you still have an amazing group of players from Jordan to Mackenzie to Mo’unga to Retallik to Savea to the Ioane brothers etc etc. I just think the NH has caught up a bit, especially France and to be honest France have a history of turning up against you so while the performances from NZ have been surprising I wouldn’t go ******** the bed yet either.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,245
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Obviously I bow to your greater knowledge but did your current crop really not play in the school yard or grow up in a culture that doesn’t care about rugby? I find that hard to believe (not in a doubting you kind of way just surprising)

For me it’s pretty simple, you still have an amazing group of players from Jordan to Mackenzie to Mo’unga to Retallik to Savea to the Ioane brothers etc etc. I just think the NH has caught up a bit, especially France and to be honest France have a history of turning up against you so while the performances from NZ have been surprising I wouldn’t go ******** the bed yet either.
I’m not sure if I’d go as far as @Umaga's Witness but I get what they’re saying, rugby is legit dying in nz, you look at the crowds on old video of the late 90s or even early 2000s and there were sell out crowds for the npc…there was probably a couple of thousand at the final on the weekend, there are clubs folding because of no one wanting to play, people talk about how rugby mad nz is and it a huge fallacy, I would say aus is much more into league and AFL and cricket and the uk is much more into football…but rugby is our #1 sport and we’re not as passionate about is as other countries are about their #1 sports
 

TigsMan

G.O.A.T
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
20,816
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leicester

Wonder what odds Shaun Edwards might be to replace Eddie Jones post world cup.
Has head coach experience won the Heineken cup and Prem with Wasps as Head coach as well as 3 prems and a European trophy as defence and backs coach.
Post RWC he would be sitting on 15 years of International experiance
 

TigsMan

G.O.A.T
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
20,816
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leicester

Still think it'll be Borthwick, but could see Edwards being on the shortlist

I think it will depend on how successful Borthwick is next season.
Shortlist ATM I would say should be atm
Borthwick or Edwards
MAYBE a left field call and someone like Joseph depends how much RFU want to have a English coach.
I don't see Joesph staying with Japan post this world cup, @ 52 he could find himself with a contender TBH could see Wales chasing him.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,935
I’m not sure if I’d go as far as @Umaga's Witness but I get what they’re saying, rugby is legit dying in nz, you look at the crowds on old video of the late 90s or even early 2000s and there were sell out crowds for the npc…there was probably a couple of thousand at the final on the weekend, there are clubs folding because of no one wanting to play, people talk about how rugby mad nz is and it a huge fallacy, I would say aus is much more into league and AFL and cricket and the uk is much more into football…but rugby is our #1 sport and we’re not as passionate about is as other countries are about their #1 sports
That’s interesting and something I wasn’t really aware of. I suppose that will have ramifications for the future but in the here and now I still think you’re more than fine. I can see why there’s concern, though, you’ve just lost 2 games in a row since I don’t even know when but it’s the end of a long season, you’re away from home, and I guess there could be some coaching/selection issues too, all of which are fixable. As I say, your quality of players are still ridiculous imo.
 

BrokenWing

Academy Player
Joined
Nov 25, 2018
Messages
268
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Bristol

I don’t think it was clear and obvious mistake and was only seen from one angle
I thought it was pretty conclusive from that one angle, but then thought that considering not much was made of it by the French TV maybe other angles showed it wasn't.
 

NZbloke

Academy Player
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
267
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

Richie was awful. I was thinking before this game, and I’m thinking even more so now, that maybe at test level with the nature of some of the defences these days that mckenzie is our best test level ten. What’s good at super rugby level vs what’s good at test level isn’t always the same, sometimes players who aren’t amazing at super are a lot better at international. Think de Allende, he is pretty average at that next level down but great at tests. Maybe damian at ten will be the same. Worth a go against a top defensive side anyway
Aaron Smith was dreadful too... to be fair to them both though for about 60 minutes of that match we got a dreadful platform from our forwards, so obviously the playmakers were going to be under massive pressure in that period.
Wish Aaron Smith would stop overdoing those bloody box kicks in the field of play, he gave a lot of possession away with those type of kicks - find a box kick is pretty handy though from a halfback inside our 22, as it allows us to exit our danger zone by kicking the ball out near the halfway mark, which allows us to have a lineout & set our defence... not only is a box kick a good exit kick within your 22, it's also a pretty good tactic in a wet weather conditions with the slippery ball, in dry conditions though that tactic is really nullified, that's when we should be using it a lot less.

When Mo'unga plays for the Crusaders his tactical kicking is very good against the rushing defence, he executes wipers kicks into space etc... but him & our other 10's under Foster are all putting up & unders to counter rushing defence, that's predictable & dumb rugby, not really applying much pressure & giving a fair bit of our possession away, if you're going to kick do it to apply real pressure, like pinning the opposition in their half.
 

Ddanno

First XV
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
1,060
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Harlequins

International rugby different to Domestic rugby SHOCKER. Read all about it at stuff.nz
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,245
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

That’s interesting and something I wasn’t really aware of. I suppose that will have ramifications for the future but in the here and now I still think you’re more than fine. I can see why there’s concern, though, you’ve just lost 2 games in a row since I don’t even know when but it’s the end of a long season, you’re away from home, and I guess there could be some coaching/selection issues too, all of which are fixable. As I say, your quality of players are still ridiculous imo.
last year, argentina and aussie, thats why people are worried, we've had time to fix what happened but havent, you know what they say though, champion team beats a team of champions and everyone else seems to be building teams...we're just trying to stick the 15 best individuals on the pitch and asking them to all try and do it them selves
Aaron Smith was dreadful too... to be fair to them both though for about 60 minutes of that match we got a dreadful platform from our forwards, so obviously the playmakers were going to be under massive pressure in that period.
Wish Aaron Smith would stop overdoing those bloody box kicks in the field of play, he gave a lot of possession away with those type of kicks - find a box kick is pretty handy though from a halfback inside our 22, as it allows us to exit our danger zone by kicking the ball out near the halfway mark, which allows us to have a lineout & set our defence... not only is a box kick a good exit kick within your 22, it's also a pretty good tactic in a wet weather conditions with the slippery ball, in dry conditions though that tactic is really nullified, that's when we should be using it a lot less.

When Mo'unga plays for the Crusaders his tactical kicking is very good against the rushing defence, he executes wipers kicks into space etc... but him & our other 10's under Foster are all putting up & unders to counter rushing defence, that's predictable & dumb rugby, not really applying much pressure & giving a fair bit of our possession away, if you're going to kick do it to apply real pressure, like pinning the opposition in their half.
you really do see the game different to everyone else i talk too....and i am on more than one rugby forum so i talk a lot, every other comment ive seen was smith was one of the few shining light and what a step up he was from TJ the week before, how he was putting balls straight out into midfield when richie was being indecisive was how Ioane was able to open up a bit
 

NZbloke

Academy Player
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
267
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

It’s honestly more shocking that the coaching panel they selected after the World Cup was originally only given two years. That’s not something often done by any country.

Everyone has it completely wrong to think they were ever thinking of hiring Robertson after fosters term came up; I mean I’ve said it before, but i also said it when fosters first contract was signed, the two years thing was so they could consider gatland after he had finished with the lions. Gatlands case for not being the all blacks coach was clearly better than fosters, so they resigned him. They always said they wanted international experience within the coaching panel and Robertson failed to provide that. Foster had plumtree. If brown hadn’t pulled out of the assistant gig I reckon Robertson would have got the job.
Don't see much point selecting Gatland, he isn't an innovating type of coach anyway, so what's he going to add to the ABs ? the ***** on the NZRU board got it wrong, it wasn't that vital we needed a coach with international coaching experience - the NZ Super rugby teams have played a very similar type of game to the ABs for yonks, which is a big reason why players find it easier to slot into the ABs fast paced game... so Robertson was the ideal candidate because of all his Super Rugby coaching experience, think he's coached the Crusaders to 5 or 6 ***les.
You just know Robertson will hammer home to them to get back to basics & do the hard yakka in the forwards... that's obviously why both Ireland & France have stuffed us in the forwards, they've done the hard work there, so we were starved of the ball.
 

NZbloke

Academy Player
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
267
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

you really do see the game different to everyone else i talk too....and i am on more than one rugby forum so i talk a lot, every other comment ive seen was smith was one of the few shining light and what a step up he was from TJ the week before, how he was putting balls straight out into midfield when richie was being indecisive was how Ioane was able to open up a bit
Don't blame me for your lack of insight... how good was Smith in first half of that game? his first kick early in the game from inside our 22 was aimless, which they ran back & put big pressure on us, yeah we all know he's got a faster pass, but you're dreaming as you've said earlier in the thread that he's better in all the other areas than our other two 9's, as asked before what are those other areas then ???
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,245
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Don't blame me or your lack of insight... how good was Smith in first half of that game? his first kick early in the game from inside our 22 was aimless, which they ran back & put big pressure on us, yeah we all know he's got a faster pass, but you're dreaming as you've said earlier in the thread that he's better in all the other areas than our other two 9's, as asked before what are those other areas then ???
....in fairness you're the only person know that thinks that

and its not just the fast pass, its the vision to see his 10 is struggling and to try and control the game by getting the ball to the one guys in the backline making meters, half a dozen times we saw a short ball crash and then a wide ball to ioane to keep them guessing and it worked

when our forwards were pretending to be marshmallows in the first half smith was chopping front rowers all over the place (as much as a 5'9 80kg bloke can) where TJ is famous for putting his hands up and back peddling when someone big run at him
 

Latest posts

Top