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Georgia in Pro12 ?

Getting involved in higher level club and international windows is much more doable than 6N, and is where their efforts should be focussed IMO.

Travel is definitely an issue for Georgia though, not so much for Germany.
 
It's not just that - they are quite a poor country (not trying to be disrespectful or sneering here, just pragmatic), with a GDP significantly lower than the 6 nations'.

I think people really misunderstand what makes the 6 nations successful - it's not innovative or progressive. Nor is it indended to be, it's all about tradition and predictability.

It's why people are averse to bonus points - because it increases the number of "moving parts". It's the same teams, at the same time of year trying to do the same simple thing - win as many games as possible.

I love steak, and I don't have any great love of Turkey, but I wouldn't want beef for Christmas lunch. It's Christmas.

Wales are poor too, let's kick them out. :p
 
A bit off topic but an article on Germany. You'd have to imagine the backing of a billionaire in German rugby might turn the head of Pro12.

"Muhammad Ali was reaching the end of his boxing career in 1979 when a marketing executive from Germany persuaded him to become the advertising spokesman for an obscure drink that was being launched in the United States. “I am the greatest, the whole world knows it,†Ali proclaimed, “but the day I stop boxing, Capri-Sun will be greatest.â€

It was a sensational coup. Within 15 years, Capri-Sun was the market leader in the US and by 2004 it had global sales of five billion drink pouches a year, appearing in lunch boxes and picnic hampers in 100 different countries.

That marketing executive was Dr Hans-Peter Wild, a Cambridge University graduate from Heidelberg, one of two rugby strongholds in Germany, who is now worth $2.7 billion [about £2.1 billion]. For the past decade, Wild has been bankrolling German rugby with similarly bold ambitions.

Having initially set up a foundation to encourage youth participation, Wild has now earmarked £30 million for high-performance infrastructure in Heidelberg, with a vision to create a professional franchise capable of competing in the European Challenge Cup and possibly the Guinness PRO12.

The target for the national team is for Germany to qualify for the 2019 World Cup and the 2020 Olympic Games â€" and then to start banging on the door of the Six Nations.

There is still some way to travel. Germany are ranked 22nd in the world and they were defeated 50-6 by Georgia, the standard-bearers for the second tier of European rugby, last weekend. But Germany have shown their potential with two notable victories this season, defeating Uruguay, who have appeared at three World Cups, 24-21 in November and then Romania 41-38 on February 11.

Germany’s belief is that, within a generation, they will not only be able to dance in the ring with the best teams in the world, but land punches too. “That is the ultimate goal,†Robert Mohr, the manager of Heidelberg’s Wild Rugby Academy, told The Times. “But nothing in our beautiful sport is straightforward.â€

Georgia’s efforts to gain entry into the Six Nations have been repeatedly and controversially rebuffed. However, the German federation (Deutscher Rugby-Verband) believes that it could prise open the door to European rugby’s most protectionist club because, ultimately, money talks.

KEY STAT
340,347
Registered players in England according to 2014 World Rugby figures
“If Germany had shown the same results as Georgia have, it would be easier for us to open up the Six Nations,†Manuel Wilhelm, sporting director of the DRV, said. “The German market, on a global scale, is just a different beast.

“I do not believe in Six Nations expansion but you need a relegation match between the last team of the Six Nations and the winners of the Rugby Europe Championship. You have to open up that opportunity to grow the global sport.

“Now we have to catch up with Georgia. Those results [against Uruguay and Romania] help to show us that we are moving in the right direction, that reaching a World Cup and Olympics can be a real ambition. The reaction to the Romania result in World Rugby and Rugby Europe showed there is a big interest in developing another major rugby-playing nation.â€

Germany have not always been international minnows. Rugby was established there before football, introduced to Heidelberg by students and in Hanover through the royal links with England that date back to George I in 1714."

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-eyeing-six-nations-with-help-from-capri-sun-cf0lxrrll
 
Thanks for posting the whole article. I saw a link to it in another forum, but didn't want to register just for that one. I can't believe how much has changed in the past few years. If you had told me a couple of years ago I'd be able to watch Germany matches on TV/online (granted, paid for by the very same Wild) and that even foreign newspapers would report about us, I wouldn't have believed it.
 
German membership of the Pro12 looking very far fetched and described as being 6 or 7 years away even if both parties wanted it.

http://www.the42.ie/germany-guinness-pro12-3271489-Mar2017/

It looks like the same old Pro12 - a lack of foresight or ambition to invest in other areas. Instead hope others magically raise their level without assistance and then decide to give you access to their market rather than make their own league or go elsewhere. It also reads like North American expansion is also just an "idea" at this time.
 
Funny, I was about to post that article in the Germany thread.

No, it makes sense right now. We clearly don't have the level for it and our money is best spent on other things.
 
You can be sure that were it Germany dominating the level below the 6 Nations, those countries would find a way to have them added to the tournament. The market is so valuable.

Good to see feelers have been sent out with regards a German Pro 12 team. The way to grow the game in Europe is by adding franchises to top tier club competitions because a German, Georgian or Romanian league will never reach the level of the three established leagues.
 
You can be sure that were it Germany dominating the level below the 6 Nations, those countries would find a way to have them added to the tournament. The market is so valuable.

Good to see feelers have been sent out with regards a German Pro 12 team. The way to grow the game in Europe is by adding franchises to top tier club competitions because a German, Georgian or Romanian league will never reach the level of the three established leagues.

The approach is a Georgian/German team mixed and based in Germany. Also rumours of 2 teams. I'd be in favour if possible of getting 2 leagues of 10 maybe and add a promotion/relegation. Think it'd be suited better in Pro12 and 2nd tier than in England or France as most in our league are owned by unions so like less chance of a mega rich club blowing everyone away
 
I'd be in favour if possible of getting 2 leagues of 10 maybe and add a promotion/relegation.
I see this forwarded as an option in a lot of places. Honest question; which TV company is going to pay for rights to a 2nd division? Who'd put up money to ***le sponsor this division? The Celtic League as it was then didn't have a ***le sponsor for it's first five seasons and that's in established nations.

I don't think promotion/relegation is realistic. It's likely that we'd see the Italian and German/Georgian teams relegated. With no TV income to support them and fans deserting them, they'd fold.

The trick for the Pro12 is adding teams from other nations without diluting the quality of the league.
 
For information, here is what may be the pool of georgian players
It include players called-up by national team last 2 years and/or full professional players

They got a world class forwards pack, including reserve players. A little bit tight at lock, but some backrower (Gorgodze, Lomidze, Giorgadze, Sutiashvili) can cover the position.

TBH their centres are pretty good, Mchedlidze played in Top14 last year (either at wing or centre) and is one of the top scorer this season (7 tries), Sharikadze, also professional, is very skilled and is the second youngest player ever to reach 50 caps behind George North, Kacharava, 97 caps, plays for russian side Enisei-STM and is a very strong defender, and Koshadze, 20 years old, impressed a lot the first two 6 Nations B games and will made a trial for a ProD2 club

But the back-three is really really poor... especially in defense. Georgia needs urgently to find decent wingers and fullback. Nevertheless, most of these players called up last two years are young : Svanidze (1996), Sichinava (1995), Aptsiauri, Pruidze and Giorgadze (all 1994), Matiashvili (1993), Khutsishvili (1992) and I hope that some of them can still make progress.

They also need a class flyhalf. Malaguradze is a good defender, poor attacker; Khmaladze is a correct attacker, average defender; Jinchvelashvili is a decent attacker but poor defender, Ninidze is very average both in attack and defense. Georga also need a better backup for their scrumhalf Lobzhanidze, but Aprasidze (born 1998 and already capped) walks on his way

Loosehead prop :
Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier/Top14) - Karlen Asieshvili (Brive/Top14) - Vasil Kakovin (Toulouse/Top14) - Zurab Zhvania (Stade Français/Top14) - Val Rapava-Ruskin (Worcester/Premiership) - Davit Khinchagishvili (Bayonne/Top14) - Tornike Mataradze (Lyon/Challenge Cup) - Giorgi Tetrashvili (Agen/ProD2) - Archil Bezhiashvili (Vannes/ProD2)

Hooker :
Shalva Mamukashvili (Toulon/Top14) - Jaba Bregvadze (Worcester/Premiership) - Badri Alkhazashvili (Toulon/Top14) - Giorgi Chkoidze (Lelo Saracens/Georgia) - Simon Maisuradze (Mâcon/French 3d Div) - Iuri Natriashvili (Baia Mare/Romania) - Giorgi Tedoradze (Locomotive/Georgia)

Tighthead Prop :
Levan Chilachava (Toulon/Top14) - Davit Kubriashvili (Montpellier/Top14) - Anton Peikrishvili (Cardiff Blues/Pro12) - Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont/Top14) - Giorgi Melikidze (Stade Français/Top14) - Soso Bekoshvili (Brive/Top14) - Lasha Tabidze (Bordeaux/U22 Academy) - Gagi Bazadze (Montpellier/Top14) - Lekso Kaulashvili (La Rochelle/Top14) - Irakli Mirtskhulava (Oyonnax/ProD2) - Nikoloz Khatiashvili (Aurillac/ProD2) - Giorgi Vekhpadze (Oyonnax/ProD2) - Vakhtang Akhobadze (Agen/ProD2) - Beka Sheklashvili (Albi/ProD2) - Giorgi Sharashidze (Aurillac/ProD2) - Elizbar Kuparadze (Dax/ProD2) - Tariel Ratianidze (Narbonne/ProD2)

Lock :
Konstantin Mikautadze (Montpellier/Top14) - Giorgi Nemsadze (Bristol/Premiership) - Nodar Cheishvili (Lelo Saracens/Georgia) - Levan Datunashvili (Aurillac/ProD2) - Vakhtang Maisuradze (Vannes/ProD2)

Flanker :
Viktor Kolelishvili (Clermont/Top14) - Otar Giorgadze (Clermont/Top14) - Shalva Sutiashvili (Soyaux-Angouleme/ProD2) - Giorgi Tkhilaishvili (Batumi/Georgia) - Saba Shubitidze (Academia/Georgia) - Mikheil Gachechiladze (Enisei-STM/Challenge Cup) - Lasha Tavberidze (Soyaux-Angouleme/ProD2) - Giorgi Tsutskiridze (Brive/U22 Academy) - Giorgi Mchedlishvili (Jiki/Georgia)

Number8 :
Mamuka Gorgodze (Toulon/Top14) - Beka Gorgadze (Stade Montois/ProD2) - Lasha Lomidze (Béziers/ProD2) - Beka Bitsadze (Chambery/French 3d Div) - Dimitri Basilaia (Côte Vermeille/French 5th Div)

Scrumhalf :
Vasil Lobzhanidze (Brive/Top14) - Giorgi Begadze (Kochebi/Georgia) - Vazha Khutsishvili (Locomotive/Georgia) - Gela Aprasidze (Lelo Saracens/Georgia)

Flyhalf :
Lasha Malaguradze (Krasny Yar/Russia) - Lasha Khmaladze (Lelo Saracens/Georgia) - Revaz Jinchvelashvili (Bagrati/Georgia) - Mamuka Ninidze (Jiki/Georgia)

Centre :
Tamaz Mchedlidze (Agen/ProD2) - Merab Sharikadze (Aurillac/ProD2) - Davit Kacharava (Enisei-STM/Challenge Cup) - Giorgi Koshadze (Kharebi/Georgia) - Badri Liparteliani (Armazi/Georgia) - Revaz Gigauri (Nice/French 4th Div) - Giorgi Talakhadze (Locomotive/Georgia)

Winger :
Sandro Todua (Lelo Saracens/Georgia) - Giorgi Pruidze (Bagrati/Georgia) - Soso Matiashvili (Academia/Georgia) - Giorgi Aptsiauri (Locomotive/Georgia) - Anzor Sichinava (Academia/Georgia) - Muraz Giorgadze (Armazi/Georgia) - Alexander Khutsishvili (Kochebi/Georgia)

Fullback :
Merab Kvirikashvili (Lelo Saracens/Georgia) - Beka Tsiklauri (Locomotive/Georgia) - Irakli Svanidze (Jiki/Georgia)
 
I see this forwarded as an option in a lot of places. Honest question; which TV company is going to pay for rights to a 2nd division? Who'd put up money to ***le sponsor this division? The Celtic League as it was then didn't have a ***le sponsor for it's first five seasons and that's in established nations.

I don't think promotion/relegation is realistic. It's likely that we'd see the Italian and German/Georgian teams relegated. With no TV income to support them and fans deserting them, they'd fold.

The trick for the Pro12 is adding teams from other nations without diluting the quality of the league.

I agree with this and the obstacle is more as you suggest. Doing it right but with the correct balance to keep standard and funding up.
 
I don't doubt that a Georgian side could be competitive in the top 8 or 9 in the Pro12 if they hired a good international coach and maybe a couple of experienced foreign backs to mentor their young Georgians. Unfortunately, if the Pro12 aren't even entertaining Germany will until after the 2023 RWC at the earliest I'd be amazed if Georgia is being considered at all. :(
 
I don't doubt that a Georgian side could be competitive in the top 8 or 9 in the Pro12 if they hired a good international coach and maybe a couple of experienced foreign backs to mentor their young Georgians. Unfortunately, if the Pro12 aren't even entertaining Germany will until after the 2023 RWC at the earliest I'd be amazed if Georgia is being considered at all. :(

tbh a Georgian side would be hammered in the pro 12, the Italian sides have good forwards and they still get smashed every week, there is a good chance that Georgian clubs entering the pro 12 would make Georgian rugby go backwards in the same way that Italian rugby has gone backwards from Treviso and zebra being in the pro 12
 
I'd have no problem with a German team and Georgian team playing each team in the league.

But, at the minute, I think it'd be better for them though to not play a full league program.

Initially, I'd propose both teams form one "fixture unit", playing 12 fixtures each against the other 12 established teams and playing each other a few times - with no points from the matches. This would cut travel costs for the two new teams and allow them to operate with a smaller squad due to a less intense fixture program - it'd allow the big teams to experiment (hopefully also increasing the competitiveness of the matches versus these newcomers) and avoiding senseless drubbings.

After a few years to find their feet, the league expands to 14 and they become a full part of the league.


edit: The T1 European nations need to start having a real think about how the international fixture schedule will be in, say, 10 years. So far its like the ***anic, brainlessly running full steam ahead. If say, by 2025 Germany, Georgia, the US and Russia are in and around the level of the other T1s - having simply a 6N makes no sense.

You might be looking at something along the lines of a 10 nation tournament. For that, I think you'd have to either:

1. Make it replace the Autumn Internationals (maybe moving this window to the new year).
2. Have some players almost exclusively playing internationals - not so much a problem for the Celtic nations, but a massive one for England & France for country vs. club.

Or something else I haven't considered.
 
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These teams would have to be fully professional to have a shot in this league, which is not yet the case. However they also don't really have the standard of opposition to justify professionalism yet. A good start I think would be for the Pro 12 to broker a few pre season fixtures between Pro 12 sides and Georgian/German sides and kick on from there.
 
German membership of the Pro12 looking very far fetched and described as being 6 or 7 years away even if both parties wanted it.

http://www.the42.ie/germany-guinness-pro12-3271489-Mar2017/

It looks like the same old Pro12 - a lack of foresight or ambition to invest in other areas. Instead hope others magically raise their level without assistance and then decide to give you access to their market rather than make their own league or go elsewhere. It also reads like North American expansion is also just an "idea" at this time.

I think they're being realistic and possible trying to dampen down the hype a bit. Any expansion will need long term planning.

At least they got the ball rolling by talking. It shows that the pro12 are interested and the Germans are interested.
 
tbh a Georgian side would be hammered in the pro 12, the Italian sides have good forwards and they still get smashed every week, there is a good chance that Georgian clubs entering the pro 12 would make Georgian rugby go backwards in the same way that Italian rugby has gone backwards from Treviso and zebra being in the pro 12

I don't think so. Italy's best players are playing outside Italy (Parisse, Campagnaro, Ghiraldini, Favaro) and the others players are divided into 2 franchises.
Also, don't forget the fact Georgia is ahead Italy on World Rugby Rankings, they finished unbeaten last summer tour in Pacific (v Fiji, Tonga and Samoa) and won against Samoa last November. They played badly against Scotland and loss by 25, but Italy during the last 6 Nations loss by 29 against Scotland

Also, I think the future is bright for Georgia, considering U20 will play their second U20 World Championship in a row and finished in the Top10 last year (Italy never achieved that), losing by 3 points against France (27-24), losing by 1 point against Wales (10-9) and winning against Italy.
U18 team reached U18 Rugby Europe Championship gran final two years ago after eliminating Italy and Ireland and reached the final again last year.

I don't think money is an issue, Georgia is bankrolled by billionaire Bidzina Ivanishvili and by the Government. The team is also backed by a a big sponsor TBC Bank and few others.
From a news on GRU website 2 days ago, billionaire Mohed Altrad (owner of Montpellier, and sponsor of France national team) is bankrolling Georgian Rugby Union and Aia Kutaisi (a club from the Didi10 = georgian first division). Georgia U18 already have the logo on their shirts
 
I don't think so. Italy's best players are playing outside Italy (Parisse, Campagnaro, Ghiraldini, Favaro) and the others players are divided into 2 franchises.
Also, don't forget the fact Georgia is ahead Italy on World Rugby Rankings, they finished unbeaten last summer tour in Pacific (v Fiji, Tonga and Samoa) and won against Samoa last November. They played badly against Scotland and loss by 25, but Italy during the last 6 Nations loss by 29 against Scotland

Also, I think the future is bright for Georgia, considering U20 will play their second U20 World Championship in a row and finished in the Top10 last year (Italy never achieved that), losing by 3 points against France (27-24), losing by 1 point against Wales (10-9) and winning against Italy.
U18 team reached U18 Rugby Europe Championship gran final two years ago after eliminating Italy and Ireland and reached the final again last year.

I don't think money is an issue, Georgia is bankrolled by billionaire Bidzina Ivanishvili and by the Government. The team is also backed by a a big sponsor TBC Bank and few others.
From a news on GRU website 2 days ago, billionaire Mohed Altrad (owner of Montpellier, and sponsor of France national team) is bankrolling Georgian Rugby Union and Aia Kutaisi (a club from the Didi10 = georgian first division). Georgia U18 already have the logo on their shirts

Well said.
I'm really looking forward to the u20 world championships this year, an improvement from last year would be excellent and show they're moving in the right direction. Do you feel there's players there in the u20s that are good enough to break into the first team? I've only seen highlights of last year's world champs but the scrum half looked very good especially with his goal kicking which is something that the senior side is lacking.
I agree regarding money, Georgia have fallen on their feet in that regard and they've been given excellent financial backing. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to get a half decent club side together to compete. They've certainly got the money for it after all.
 

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