GOAT - The eternal debate

[Leonormous Boozer]

I really don't think ROS is in the debate. I don't think he really stands up to Tiger Woods or Federer/Nadal/Djocovic as an individual sportsperson who plays tournament formats against large fields.

I think you can point to the nationality of Snooker champions and it discredits the sport massively, I can think of three not from the UK and one whose national flag doesn't have a Union Flag incorporated into it.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Thuram is in my GOAT football XI.

GK: Schmeichel. Still best goalie I have seen in my life time And I am a Liverpool fan.

Right back: Thuram.
Sweeper: Beckenbauer.
Left back: Maldini

Defensive Mid: Rijkaard.

Right midfield: Maradona.
Central playmaker: Zidane
Left midfield: Pele

Right forward: Messi
Centre Forward: Ronaldo Nazario
Left Forward: Christiano Ronaldo.

A connoisseur picking Thuram (I'd probably pick Cannovaro and Buffon too in my XI). Cannovaro vs Thuram is actually part of the debate in microcosm. Thuram is the better player in part due to athleticism and physique. Cannovaro was comparable but was a 5'9" centre half for crying out loud. I don't think I've ever seen such a short centre half. He wasn't even remotely fast either and won world player of the year as a defender. He must have been a mental genius and ace competitor to get 130+ caps in an Italian defence. His positioning, timing on last minute tackles (due to lack of pace and leg length) and intelligent use of (limited) body weight to stifle attackers was a thing to behold.

World Football: 25 Best Players Who Lacked Pace

Pace is a very important factor in the game of football, but there have been a number of good players who lacked pace...

bleacherreport.com

All hail Fabio Cannavaro, too short and handsome to be THAT good...

You have to be bloody good to win the Ballon d'Or as a defender. Canny Fabio is one of only three to pull it off...

www.football365.com

So if a GOAT is someone who maximises their resources, then my GOAT may have moved 5 yards across the Parma central defence!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think I agree with most of that. Rijkaard doesn't stand out to me, I think I'd wedge Roberto Carlos in to a back four.

I think soccer shows that talent doesn't equal GOAT as Reisser put it above. I don't think any of these guys were naturally as technically good and skillful as Ronaldinho. George Best had it all too but both wasted a lot of their potential despite at times in their careers' being the absolute world's best.

Rijkaard, I chose because he was a great defensive midfielder for the Great Milan side. He could also slot into the back 3 to make it 4 as a central defender, where he played for the Netherlands in the 1988 Euro Winning side and at 6 foot 3 gives the side a bit of height.

Others I couldn't fit in: Di Stefano - never saw him play, but 5 European Cups with Real. And Cruyff is another. And yep Ronaldinho - what a player he was. George Best, Kenny Dalglish so many. But could only choose XI.

 

[Reiser99]

I remember reading once that many Dutch would consider Bergkamp to be the most technically gifted Dutch player ever.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think Ronnie's claim is both his longevity, but also that he's completely unplayable on his day. Pretty much everyone in snooker has him as the best players who's ever picked up a cue, and most (including Hendry) are amazed it's taken him this long to reach 7.
Add in his longevity, and his mental health issues (which have robbed him of many more titles), and I'm not going to disagree with them.
Of course, Hendry wil also be in the conversation for being so dominant for a decent length of time, when he basically never dropped below 8/10.

I was going to touch on that, but got lazy. I think this inflates people's impression of him, it's easy to remember him banging in a 5 minute 7 second 147, but nobody's going to remember him losing in the first round on a wet Wednesday in a cubicle in Prestatyn. But what percentage of his career has been spent playing at that Tommy playing pinball (to borrow Steve Davis' phrase about Higgins) level?

For me, he doesn't get a pass for his mental health problems. Everyone has to play the hand dealt to them, that's his. In a game in which mental strength is such an important attribute, it would have to be the biggest weakness in his game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I really don't think ROS is in the debate. I don't think he really stands up to Tiger Woods or Federer/Nadal/Djocovic as an individual sportsperson who plays tournament formats against large fields.

I included RoS in the debate for the GOAT on this thread, but only intended to in the context of Snooker.

I still regard Snooker as a highly skilled and technical game rather than a sport like football, boxing, Golf because of the lack of physical aspect in Snooker.

I think there's also a lack of the outdoor element which snooker lacks compared to a less physical sport like Golf, where golfers have to battle the elements as well.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Luck or genius? Why Real's Ancelotti is underrated

Before Real Madrid's Champions League semi-final second leg against Man City, Mina Rzouki assesses the impact of boss Carlo Ancelotti.

www.bbc.co.uk

The GOAT of football managers?

 

[General Melchett]

Luck or genius? Why Real's Ancelotti is underrated

Before Real Madrid's Champions League semi-final second leg against Man City, Mina Rzouki assesses the impact of boss Carlo Ancelotti.

www.bbc.co.uk

The GOAT of football managers?

Alex Ferguson for me. Besides his well documented success at Man United, he won a major European trophy with Aberdeen (beating Real Madrid in the final) and then beat the European Champions Hamburg to win the European Super Cup.

It's difficult to compare as Ancelotti has won major trophies in three different countries whereas Fergie stayed loyal to United. You've obviously got other contenders like Shankley and Busby.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Alex Ferguson for me. Besides his well documented success at Man United, he won a major European trophy with Aberdeen (beating Real Madrid in the final) and then beat the European Champions Hamburg to win the European Super Cup.

It's difficult to compare as Ancelotti has won major trophies in three different countries whereas Fergie stayed loyal to United. You've obviously got other contenders like Shankley and Busby.

38 major trophies compared to Ancelotti's 22 as well. But Carlo has 3 Champions league wins and could make it 4 if they go onto the final and beat Liverpool.

Difficult to compare. But Ancelotti'sleague ***les in 5 major leagues is quite an achievement. Not quite the Brian Clough winning league with Derby County and Forrest and 2 x European cup with Forrest.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

the hardest thing for me is to compare people across eras. Formula 1 before and after the first Concorde Agreement is really a different sport. Each sport also has their own history of amateur, professional but still a hobby, and then fully professional.

Also guys have to micro dose their steroids now which means we won't see the hulks of the 90s anymore.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

38 major trophies compared to Ancelotti's 22 as well. But Carlo has 3 Champions league wins and could make it 4 if they go onto the final and beat Liverpool.

Difficult to compare. But Ancelotti'sleague ***les in 5 major leagues is quite an achievement. Not quite the Brian Clough winning league with Derby County and Forrest and 2 x European cup with Forrest.

All roads lead to Rome, I mean Parma.

Ancelotti had Thuram, Cannovaro and Buffon at Parma and couldn't win the ***le. Sure, they weren't the wealthiest club and the rest of the side is average, but that is a blot in the copy book. Doesn't come close to winning the European Cup Winners Cup with freaking Aberdeen, in a team filled with Scots (whose national side was pretty rubbish). I'm not saying Fergie is the best. Just that Ancelotti isn't.

EDIT: Marcello Lippi. Excelled at club level and bagged a World Cup. Probably my pick because the skillset for coaching club and country is so varied.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Thuram is in my GOAT football XI.

GK: Schmeichel. Still best goalie I have seen in my life time And I am a Liverpool fan.

Right back: Thuram.
Sweeper: Beckenbauer.
Left back: Maldini

Defensive Mid: Rijkaard.

Right midfield: Maradona.
Central playmaker: Zidane
Left midfield: Pele

Right forward: Messi
Centre Forward: Ronaldo Nazario
Left Forward: Christiano Ronaldo.

That is suicidal. You'd score 4-5 goals all game and still lose. Maldini and thuram would spent all the half time break screaming at their team mates. Rijkaard wouldnt have much fun either.

When considering these sort of things you need to think how people compliment each other, balance, chemistry.
That's why not many would put modric/kroos/casemiro or iniesta/xavi/busquets in their team, yet those two are arguably the two best midfield in the history of the sport. Iniesta/xavi/busquests were formidable at creating spaces, and that's what you need when you have a trio like messi/pedro/villa.
Having said that, if i didnt know the rest of the team i'd say kroos/casemiro/modric is more flexible and could adapt to more scenarios.

This is all, again, very complex. Xavi, best spanish player ever in my book, would have been an average joe had he not crossed paths with messi. Just look at BCN's 2006 campaign. He was 26 at the time, not like he was 18 or just arrived at the club. He wasnt even a starter.
But he brought to the table exactly what was needed at that specific point in time for that specific team.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That is suicidal.

When considering these sort of things you need to think how people compliment each other, balance, chemistry.

This is all, again, very complex.

What are you saying? Look at their winners medals. Of course they'd win everything and never ever lose.

Maradona would need some very strong smelling salts though and Pele a jet pack, as he's not as fast as he was when he was winning the World Cups with Brazil.

I'd put Brazilian Ronaldo on a major diet as well last time I saw him before he could play. Christiano would be told to bloody well press otherwise he'd be out of the GOAT team and wouldn't be able to share that on social media.

You're not getting past anything against my defence or Peter Schmeichel.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Not one of your forwards can nor is willing to collaborate with defense and neither is most of your midfield. Precisely because of that is why choices like maldini (went back and forth a lot, which requires cover) and beckenbauer (genius, but more as a strategist more than a defender) are, well, odd.
Given your team and strat (3-4-3) you would need a less offensive defense and a faster one given the space to counter the opposition would have. Think Varane or van Dijk at their best. Amazing at 1v1 and good tactically. Good headers, too.
And as much as i like rijkaard, you need something else there. You need a pitbull with 3 lungs. Think Edgar Davids at juve or Kante. If you want something a bit more oldschool Matthaus could probably work.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

My World Cup winners' GOAT team I have seen in my lifetime:

Buffon

Cafu
Desailly
Puyol
Carlos

Xavi
Matthaus
Zidane

Messi
Ronaldo
Mbappé

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

In GAOAT news, Alexander Ovechkin scored his 800th goal the other night. For a guy who would eat full pasta dishes before games and spend most nights at Dupont Circle he's really had the most amazing career.

 

[ncurd]

In GAOAT news, Alexander Ovechkin scored his 800th goal the other night. For a guy who would eat full pasta dishes before games and spend most nights at Dupont Circle he's really had the most amazing career.

Not even the best player of his generation.

Sidney Crosby - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Not even the best player of his generation.

Sidney Crosby - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I haven't seen Crosby at a dive bar at 3am surrounded by blondes the night before a game. I take a wholistic approach to greatness.

plus I grew up a flyers fan who spent time in DC. Between Vancouver 2010 and his NHL success I will not compliment Crosby.

 

[ncurd]

I haven't seen Crosby at a dive bar at 3am surrounded by blondes the night before a game. I take a wholistic approach to greatness.

plus I grew up a flyers fan who spent time in DC. Between Vancouver 2010 and his NHL success I will not compliment Crosby.

I'll give you a Flyers pass but reality is apart from goals scored there isn't anything Ovetchkin beats him at stats wise.

Which has always been Ovetchkin's problem. If he could create goals as much as he scored them he might have more accolades than Crosby.

 

[ncurd]

Also can't wait to move to Canada and actually be able to watch Hockey again.