Irish Provincial Structure

[Groundhog]

Now watch this thread die…

I do think that, despite historic value, Munster should have set up HQ in Cork. Bigger fan base, easier to work closely with primary talent sources. That was a misstep.

You've become the thing you hate the most. A Munsterfans poster ca. 2014.

 

[munstermuffin]

Now watch this thread die…

I do think that, despite historic value, Munster should have set up HQ in Cork. Bigger fan base, easier to work closely with primary talent sources. That was a misstep.

Wouldn't say bigger fanbase. Limerick actually has the bigger fanbase when you factor in Clare, Tipperary, Waterford and even some parts of Cork find it easier getting to Limerick.
They owned the ground at Thomond and have better access to alot more than you think in Limerick that couldn't be guaranteed in Cork.

UL was a country mile clear in what they could supply regards training and medical facilities.
The talent sources are West Cork also so Cork City makes very little difference. Even on away trips most Cork based people still fly from Shannon I should add. Also we have better housing facilities for our players in Castletroy close to camp that could not have been got in CIT.

And Stadium I would argue wasn't too big as it was close to sell outs for first few years but like anything decline in results leads to less people. Awkward TV times played a part too.

 

[munstermuffin]

You've become the thing you hate the most. A Munsterfans poster ca. 2014.

Not to forget they slated Saracens for years and now they are them guys.

 

[sugary tae]

provinces work because they aren't artificial constructs like the regions etc. And definitely there should be as many ulster guys in an ulster squad and so on

However What should never happen is a player who is 3rd or even 4th choice at one province is happy to stay put when two other provinces are having to go to the open market to pay a guy who cannot play for Ireland. That's dead money.
And Leinster by deft of their fantastic success and fantastic conveyor belt have a scenario whether guys like deegan or the Byrnes are able to stay put and be paid their value on the open market because of the central contracts. How much was vermeullen and ewers paid over the past 3 years. That's paying the wages of your international opponents.

There definitely should be allowances and incentives to produce Irish internationals. And there should be cover provided if there isn't depth for them said guys are out with Ireland (_urc doesn't really impinge on 6 nations etc any more)
Poor development should not be tolerated. Control of players moving should come with cast iron guarantees to develop them. Shouldn't be a scenario where the provinces are so hostile to each other. Should be interprovincial movement of coaches etc.

Need to be clever. It's about time we've all had this conversation

 

[sugary tae]

Wouldn't say bigger fanbase. Limerick actually has the bigger fanbase when you factor in Clare, Tipperary, Waterford and even some parts of Cork find it easier getting to Limerick.
They owned the ground at Thomond and have better access to alot more than you think in Limerick that couldn't be guaranteed in Cork.

UL was a country mile clear in what they could supply regards training and medical facilities.
The talent sources are West Cork also so Cork City makes very little difference. Even on away trips most Cork based people still fly from Shannon I should add. Also we have better housing facilities for our players in Castletroy close to camp that could not have been got in CIT.

And Stadium I would argue wasn't too big as it was close to sell outs for first few years but like anything decline in results leads to less people. Awkward TV times played a part too.

Cork Limerick road has far more to do with the attendances than anything. Fan base is honestly everywhere. The amount of gaa guys (and gals)who would genuinely be watching all Munster's matches across all the 6 counties is high. Building a regular attending supporter has far more to do with the match day experience. Totally agree the game times play a role for us. And the cost of hotels. Would imagine a decent chunk of the cork based guys used to stay for the euro games

 

[munstermuffin]

Cork Limerick road has far more to do with the attendances than anything. Fan base is honestly everywhere. The amount of gaa guys (and gals)who would genuinely be watching all Munster's matches across all the 6 counties is high. Building a regular attending supporter has far more to do with the match day experience. Totally agree the game times play a role for us. And the cost of hotels. Would imagine a decent chunk of the cork based guys used to stay for the euro games

100% the road is a disaster and more so on the Cork side basically Charleville to Cork.
That is why anyone from Tipp, Clare, Waterford etc prefer Limerick. Thomond Park is literally close to motorway and parking is ample in LIT. They have the room to host a decent gameday.
On hotels again I never factored that is but the amount of rooms available and cost is mad and it all adds up.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Wouldn't say bigger fanbase. Limerick actually has the bigger fanbase when you factor in Clare, Tipperary, Waterford and even some parts of Cork find it easier getting to Limerick.
They owned the ground at Thomond and have better access to alot more than you think in Limerick that couldn't be guaranteed in Cork.

UL was a country mile clear in what they could supply regards training and medical facilities.
The talent sources are West Cork also so Cork City makes very little difference. Even on away trips most Cork based people still fly from Shannon I should add. Also we have better housing facilities for our players in Castletroy close to camp that could not have been got in CIT.

And Stadium I would argue wasn't too big as it was close to sell outs for first few years but like anything decline in results leads to less people. Awkward TV times played a part too.

Short term thinking maybe? Owning the ground was obviously the primary factor but if they'd move to Cork they'd have developed infrastructure but also built a close relationship with a lot of feeder clubs and schools. A lot of Leinster players are involved in school team coaching, the knowledge is going first hand from the top down.

Having a hotspot for talent and supplementing it has worked incredibly well as can be seen by last weekends team with very few Michael's / Rock players but then the backups tend to have a strong representation from there. Moot point now but maybe a reflection of past approaches where development wasn't a priority.

It's also obviously a disadvantage that Leinster don't have with only one metropolitan area.

Not to forget they slated Saracens for years and now they are them guys.

Once again, they're us. Initial European success with a golden age supplemented with imports and then built the best academy in the country to consolidate it after years of being serial underachievers. We did it first but with no cheating.

 

[munstermuffin]

provinces work because they aren't artificial constructs like the regions etc. And definitely there should be as many ulster guys in an ulster squad and so on

However What should never happen is a player who is 3rd or even 4th choice at one province is happy to stay put when two other provinces are having to go to the open market to pay a guy who cannot play for Ireland. That's dead money.
And Leinster by deft of their fantastic success and fantastic conveyor belt have a scenario whether guys like deegan or the Byrnes are able to stay put and be paid their value on the open market because of the central contracts. How much was vermeullen and ewers paid over the past 3 years. That's paying the wages of your international opponents.

There definitely should be allowances and incentives to produce Irish internationals. And there should be cover provided if there isn't depth for them said guys are out with Ireland (_urc doesn't really impinge on 6 nations etc any more)
Poor development should not be tolerated. Control of players moving should come with cast iron guarantees to develop them. Shouldn't be a scenario where the provinces are so hostile to each other. Should be interprovincial movement of coaches etc.

Need to be clever. It's about time we've all had this conversation

I agree 100% on this but as I said elsewhere the mentality of these players has to be questioned too if they are happy to not back themselves. I'm a fan of Deegan and think he is a good player but if he is happy to not be pushing himself then you would question would he ever really make it.

 

[munstermuffin]

Short term thinking maybe? Owning the ground was obviously the primary factor but if they'd move to Cork they'd have developed infrastructure but also built a close relationship with a lot of feeder clubs and schools. A lot of Leinster players are involved in school team coaching, the knowledge is going first hand from the top down.

Having a hotspot for talent and supplementing it has worked incredibly well as can be seen by last weekends team with very few Michael's / Rock players but then the backups tend to have a strong representation from there. Moot point now but maybe a reflection of past approaches where development wasn't a priority.

It's also obviously a disadvantage that Leinster don't have with only one metropolitan area.



Once again, they're us. Initial European success with a golden age supplemented with imports and then built the best academy in the country to consolidate it after years of being serial underachievers. We did it first but with no cheating.

But here is where you are totally missing the point. Cork clubs are picky at best of times. Like alot of Munster players do help out with local clubs.
You look at Michaels or Rocks facilities. They have top S&C coaches, they have their own astro pitches or 2 or 3 training pitches. They have scrum machines, they have director of rugby. They are financially well staked and then they have alot more than just 1 or 2. Cork have 2 that don't come next to near that. Limerick have nothing like that.

The metropolitan area is not the issue. Players do go in to clubs and schools. We have development officers in clubs or schools but unless these lads do have top S&C coaches, facilities and what not the foundations are always different and it is almost always non-comparable.

A study was done on all this regards Cork vs Limerick when looking at where to base training facilities and all this regards academies and that. Cork fell a long way behind and even Cork people would admit that.
I do agree Cork have better Schools at the moment but only 2.
The closest we got was wen Bandon got private investment for 2 years for Regis Sonnes.

He has had an effect on alot of the current crop. But that doesn't change if in Cork or Limerick. That private investment was massive and that was for 2 years (and he was doing it for nearly free as he was here more fore education side than rugby) but Dublin schools that is the norm.

 

[sugary tae]

Ultimately it's getting enough athletes of a decent standard between ages of 14-18. And providing enough S and C and top level coaching. And then ensuring that they're in a cohort where those skills are tested on a daily basic. Unless you can get a boarding school to take 20+ lads each year and then provide the coaching. Thats costs a lot of money !!

 

[sugary tae]

I agree 100% on this but as I said elsewhere the mentality of these players has to be questioned too if they are happy to not back themselves. I'm a fan of Deegan and think he is a good player but if he is happy to not be pushing himself then you would question would he ever really make it.

Same. Deegan is a serious athlete but yes you'd have to question the drive if he's just happy to not make a move at this point

 

[Groundhog]

The Cork v Limerick thing was debated ad nauseum for so many years and these arguments have all been made, but ultimately the HPC in limerick has been rightly seen as a big success. I don't think you could replicate something similar in UCC as what exists in UL. It would be like trying to base Leinster out of Trinity, there just isn't really space for it imo. Might be workable in MTU tbf. I don't think we have really lost any bright talents to the commute to date and the ridiculous practice of players training in Limerick OR Cork most of the time is thankfully dead. I am glad we are doing more for Cork (PuC games, 20s games), but Limerick will always be the base.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ultimately it's getting enough athletes of a decent standard between ages of 14-18. And providing enough S and C and top level coaching. And then ensuring that they're in a cohort where those skills are tested on a daily basic. Unless you can get a boarding school to take 20+ lads each year and then provide the coaching. Thats costs a lot of money !!

I would add also and we are doing ok here. We compete against hurling which is massive in all counties. But a totally different skillset. At schools level even this is nearly as "pro" as senior intercounty levels. Like Dublin doesn't have this same issue with the younger hurlers. I know there is Gaelic Football but some skills transfer between football and rugby.

 

[munstermuffin]

The Cork v Limerick thing was debated ad nauseum for so many years and these arguments have all been made, but ultimately the HPC in limerick has been rightly seen as a big success. I don't think you could replicate something similar in UCC as what exists in UL. It would be like trying to base Leinster out of Trinity, there just isn't really space for it imo. Might be workable in MTU tbf. I don't think we have really lost any bright talents to the commute to date and the ridiculous practice of players training in Limerick OR Cork most of the time is thankfully dead. I am glad we are doing more for Cork (PuC games, 20s games), but Limerick will always be the base.

We actually have more Cork players now than ever before coming through academies and that.
UCC didn't want Munster base and CIT just couldn't provide facilities required.

 

[Groundhog]

I would add also and we are doing ok here. We compete against hurling which is massive in all counties. But a totally different skillset. At schools level even this is nearly as "pro" as senior intercounty levels. Like Dublin doesn't have this same issue with the younger hurlers. I know there is Gaelic Football but some skills transfer between football and rugby.

I mean for me an athlete is an athlete. I think in Sweetnam and O'Connor there's two lads who were extremely well conditioned from being in elite hurling set-ups from a young age.

 

[Groundhog]

There, I have non-ironically fixed Munster rugby.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But here is where you are totally missing the point. Cork clubs are picky at best of times. Like alot of Munster players do help out with local clubs.
You look at Michaels or Rocks facilities. They have top S&C coaches, they have their own astro pitches or 2 or 3 training pitches. They have scrum machines, they have director of rugby. They are financially well staked and then they have alot more than just 1 or 2. Cork have 2 that don't come next to near that. Limerick have nothing like that.

The metropolitan area is not the issue. Players do go in to clubs and schools. We have development officers in clubs or schools but unless these lads do have top S&C coaches, facilities and what not the foundations are always different and it is almost always non-comparable.

A study was done on all this regards Cork vs Limerick when looking at where to base training facilities and all this regards academies and that. Cork fell a long way behind and even Cork people would admit that.
I do agree Cork have better Schools at the moment but only 2.
The closest we got was wen Bandon got private investment for 2 years for Regis Sonnes.

He has had an effect on alot of the current crop. But that doesn't change if in Cork or Limerick. That private investment was massive and that was for 2 years (and he was doing it for nearly free as he was here more fore education side than rugby) but Dublin schools that is the norm.

No I do get that but Cork and surrounding areas is where the players are being produced right? Having players, S&C coaches and support staff etc.. based in Cork would help a lot in that case. I know for a fact that when Bryan Cullen was Leinster's S&C coach he worked with all of the top schools in Dublin, it was convenient and made sense.

It's something that Munster are likely missing out on now and is a gap to fill.

UCD wasn't just there for Leinster either, it was built gradually and is now a world class training facility.

Anyway, this is more of a reaction to criticisms of Leinster not owning a stadium / stadium expenses as an excuse for Munster. It was a choice, maybe the best one but not without negatives.

Same. Deegan is a serious athlete but yes you'd have to question the drive if he's just happy to not make a move at this point

Deegan is probably at a point where a move abroad makes the most sense. He didn't make the breakthrough expected at Leinster, he's not on Irelands radar, any move to another province is a lateral one. If he stayed at Leinster and earned a start / bench spot, he'd likely make Ireland squads, he could start elsewhere in Ireland and not make it. I think that's the mindset of most Leinster guys with international aspirations.

As it stands for Deegan, if there's no Leinster contract, go cash in in France.

 

[irisht]

Deegan moves on, Culhane steps into void.

 

[sugary tae]

No I do get that but Cork and surrounding areas is where the players are being produced right? Having players, S&C coaches and support staff etc.. based in Cork would help a lot in that case. I know for a fact that when Bryan Cullen was Leinster's S&C coach he worked with all of the top schools in Dublin, it was convenient and made sense.

It's something that Munster are likely missing out on now and is a gap to fill.

UCD wasn't just there for Leinster either, it was built gradually and is now a world class training facility.

Anyway, this is more of a reaction to criticisms of Leinster not owning a stadium / stadium expenses as an excuse for Munster. It was a choice, maybe the best one but not without negatives.



Deegan is probably at a point where a move abroad makes the most sense. He didn't make the breakthrough expected at Leinster, he's not on Irelands radar, any move to another province is a lateral one. If he stayed at Leinster and earned a start / bench spot, he'd likely make Ireland squads, he could start elsewhere in Ireland and not make it. I think that's the mindset of most Leinster guys with international aspirations.

As it stands for Deegan, if there's no Leinster contract, go cash in in France.

Yes. No differentl

No I do get that but Cork and surrounding areas is where the players are being produced right? Having players, S&C coaches and support staff etc.. based in Cork would help a lot in that case. I know for a fact that when Bryan Cullen was Leinster's S&C coach he worked with all of the top schools in Dublin, it was convenient and made sense.

It's something that Munster are likely missing out on now and is a gap to fill.

UCD wasn't just there for Leinster either, it was built gradually and is now a world class training facility.

Anyway, this is more of a reaction to criticisms of Leinster not owning a stadium / stadium expenses as an excuse for Munster. It was a choice, maybe the best one but not without negatives.



Deegan is probably at a point where a move abroad makes the most sense. He didn't make the breakthrough expected at Leinster, he's not on Irelands radar, any move to another province is a lateral one. If he stayed at Leinster and earned a start / bench spot, he'd likely make Ireland squads, he could start elsewhere in Ireland and not make it. I think that's the mindset of most Leinster guys with international aspirations.

As it stands for Deegan, if there's no Leinster contract, go cash in in France.

But the point is currently Leinster, due to 10 central contracts can afford to offer him say 100k. (Spitball finger in the air ). He can say yes or go abroad. Other provinces can't outbid. Because that would be mental wage inflation. But Munster spending same 100k on a saffer is losing the same player from the system. And spending money the system doesn't have

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

View attachment 19650

There, I have non-ironically fixed Munster rugby.

Wait .. . There isn't an interstate (or whatever you guys call it) between minster's two biggest cities?

I think you solved more than just rugby.