Lions after first round games.

[valley commando]

Itojoe was rubbish on Saturday, Ddano was right in that AWJ may rarely have an outstanding game but always has a solid game. POC was the same, rarely less than 7 out of 10 and rarely more than 7 out of 10. Itojoe for instance may get 8 or 9 out of 10 on a good day but as on Saturday can end up with 4 out of 10 or worse. Players picked for a Lions tour especially forwards need a level of consistency that they don't drop below

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Itojoe was rubbish on Saturday, Ddano was right in that AWJ may rarely have an outstanding game but always has a solid game. POC was the same, rarely less than 7 out of 10 and rarely more than 7 out of 10. Itojoe for instance may get 8 or 9 out of 10 on a good day but as on Saturday can end up with 4 out of 10 or worse. Players picked for a Lions tour especially forwards need a level of consistency that they don't drop below

Itoje was playing 6, Johnny Gray fits that bill and more and POC brought a lot more than AWJ. I'd liken AWJ to Toner with world class leadership rather than lineout, neither guy should really be within an arse's roar of a test spot with Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and J Gray around. One of them might make the plane, probably AWJ with Gatland picking.

 

[munstermuffin]

Being fair I'd saybif it was based since December to now J Gray is miles ahead and everyone battling to partner him. And it's English lads who are leading that battle

 

[McTallshort]

Itojoe was rubbish on Saturday, Ddano was right in that AWJ may rarely have an outstanding game but always has a solid game. POC was the same, rarely less than 7 out of 10 and rarely more than 7 out of 10. Itojoe for instance may get 8 or 9 out of 10 on a good day but as on Saturday can end up with 4 out of 10 or worse. Players picked for a Lions tour especially forwards need a level of consistency that they don't drop below

One bad game out of position and he's now out of the running? Come on Commando that's daft even for you

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Itoje didn't have a bad game, almost everyone that started bar Daly and, perhaps, Farrell had a bad game. Thought Itoje did ok considering he was starting as England 6 for the first time and was partnered with a penalty machine and a (still) rather lazy No. 8. Needs to watch them high tackles though

 

[corny]

It's his consistency too. He's not necessarily exceptional at anything but he's pretty damn solid at everything. He will put a clockwork 80 minutes in every match and isn't injury prone. Most international sides want someone like that around

Sure thats a description of Devin Toner. Rugged, gives you 80 everytime, holds his own in the key areas. Shouldn't be good enough for Lions spot for Toner so i don't see why it should be good enough for Jones.

 

[dullonien]

It's his consistency too. He's not necessarily exceptional at anything but he's pretty damn solid at everything. He will put a clockwork 80 minutes in every match and isn't injury prone. Most international sides want someone like that around

Pretty much. AWJ has been a class act since the first time he stepped onto the field for Wales (out in Argentina I believe), so that discounts anyone claiming his only good quality is experience. He's a workaholic, he'll dominate 90% of the tackles he puts in, he makes some hard yards when required, his hands are very good, capable of making offloads, securing a lineout one-handed, linking play. His standards do not drop for the entire 80min.

If you want a highlight reel player, Jones probably doesn't fit the bill; but a rugby team can't be made up of 15 highlight reel players, they'd be blown off the park as there'd be no 'glue' to hold the team together. Jones is that 'glue' imo. His only like-for-like rival in the second row is Kruis imo. One of them will start out in NZ alongside the athletic Itoje (so long as he fully rediscovers his form), and given Jones' superior experience, his leadership and captaincy credentialls, and the fact that Kruis has been injured, Jones is in the box seat.

AWJ looked a little tired in NZ in the summer. He'd played a hell of a lot of rugby, with very few breaks (partly because he's very rarely injured), and it seemed to catch up with him. But he has responded well this season to the challenges of Kruis, Itoje etc, and for the Ospreys at least, he's been playing the best rugby of his career. He's added a dynamic carrying game in the wider channels, one handed offloads etc. to his otherwise excellent all round game. There's more to come from him this 6 nations.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Think you're point about being a highlight reel player is somewhat flawed. I think pretty much every contender (Gray bros, Itoje, Kruis etc.) all fit the work horse rather than highlight reel mould. For J. Gray to put in 28 tackles is astounding. You don't get more of a workhorse than that. I don't doubt AWJ's class, but it has to be said that in form, he's not one of the 2 best 2nd rows in the British Isles.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Pretty much. AWJ has been a class act since the first time he stepped onto the field for Wales (out in Argentina I believe), so that discounts anyone claiming his only good quality is experience. He's a workaholic, he'll dominate 90% of the tackles he puts in, he makes some hard yards when required, his hands are very good, capable of making offloads, securing a lineout one-handed, linking play. His standards do not drop for the entire 80min.

If you want a highlight reel player, Jones probably doesn't fit the bill; but a rugby team can't be made up of 15 highlight reel players, they'd be blown off the park as there'd be no 'glue' to hold the team together. Jones is that 'glue' imo. His only like-for-like rival in the second row is Kruis imo. One of them will start out in NZ alongside the athletic Itoje (so long as he fully rediscovers his form), and given Jones' superior experience, his leadership and captaincy credentialls, and the fact that Kruis has been injured, Jones is in the box seat.

AWJ looked a little tired in NZ in the summer. He'd played a hell of a lot of rugby, with very few breaks (partly because he's very rarely injured), and it seemed to catch up with him. But he has responded well this season to the challenges of Kruis, Itoje etc, and for the Ospreys at least, he's been playing the best rugby of his career. He's added a dynamic carrying game in the wider channels, one handed offloads etc. to his otherwise excellent all round game. There's more to come from him this 6 nations.

Yep, yep and yep. Plus, if you have a player along such lines (and I would point at Robshaw as England's equivalent, lordy-lord we miss him right now) there are far worse positions for them to be playing than lock - which has, imo, one of the larger requirements for an all-round game on the field as it is.

 

[dullonien]

Think you're point about being a highlight reel player is somewhat flawed. I think pretty much every contender (Gray bros, Itoje, Kruis etc.) all fit the work horse rather than highlight reel mould. For J. Gray to put in 28 tackles is astounding. You don't get more of a workhorse than that. I don't doubt AWJ's class, but it has to be said that in form, he's not one of the 2 best 2nd rows in the British Isles.

Highlight reel player was probably the wrong term. Wasn't insinuating a lack of work-rate, but for me the likes of Itoje and Gray do combine a great work-ethic with some stand-out pieces of play, ball in hand. They are both extremely mobile, athletic players, who'd likely be able to transition to the back row given time (we all know this re Itoje, but I'd suspect Gray could as well). Wouldn't pick the two together though, not against NZ, because I think they'd be exposed due to a lack of bulk.

As such, I suppose there's the term 'tighthead lock' to slip in here. A term that obsessed English supporters on this board not too long ago. Kruiz filled this role with aplomb last season for England. Wales suffer from the opposite, all our options at lock at in the 'tighthead lock' bracket, AWJ, Cherteris, Ball, Bradley Davies are all in the grizzly, bulky mold. We could really do with a mobile, athletic partner for AWJ.

So for me I'd always pick a combo of AWJ/Kruis + Itoje/J.Gray/Launchbury (sorry Ireland, not convinced by Henderson in the second row).

 

[Reiser99]

Right guys, I have no idea why you are debating this at all. We all know Alex Cuthbert will be in the squad regardless and whoever else he has shared his naughty pictures of Gatland and Howley with. Probably most of the Welsh and Irish lions from 2013.

 

[Maverick1987]

Itojoe was rubbish on Saturday, Ddano was right in that AWJ may rarely have an outstanding game but always has a solid game. POC was the same, rarely less than 7 out of 10 and rarely more than 7 out of 10. Itojoe for instance may get 8 or 9 out of 10 on a good day but as on Saturday can end up with 4 out of 10 or worse. Players picked for a Lions tour especially forwards need a level of consistency that they don't drop below

Itoje wasn't rubbish on Saturday . He made 15 tackles and missed 1, gave 1 penalty away and forced 3 turnovers .... however it does prove a point about what we expect him to play like every game now . For most players that would be an exceptional game but for Itoje you labelled it rubbish

He made the joint most tackles on the field with Gourdon, Wood and Launchbury

Although if you compare his tackle count to Maxime Mbanda who made 26 tackles or to Hamish Watson who made 19 tackles and came off at 50 minutes he was probably a little pedestrian ! Also the Grays made 50 tackles between them ....

 

[big ginger 8]

I've been on another continent for a while so haven't been able to follow much rugby outside of Leinster and Ireland this season so that will colour my comments on this.

Has Mako really stepped it up this season compared to last season? It's just because in my admittedly biased (but then again everyone is biased in their own way) opinion Jack McGrath is pretty much undoubtedly the number one loosehead in the world (no pun intended). Mako has some skills that are better than McGrath's but in all the fundamentals of playing prop he is exceeded by him. I know he's not an especially flashy prop compared to Mako but he's basically the definition of consitency, he's even managed to go 80 minutes against SH opposition which is pretty much unheard of for props.

Secondly I'd dispute that AWJ doesn't have any stand out attributes outside of leadership. While from what little I've seen of him this season and watching all of the Summer Tour, he may have slowed down but he was definitely once a player that laid claim to being world class. One of the problems may be that a ridiculous generation of locks has appeared over the last 2-3 years so he doesn't look as good as he previously did. However, as dullonien said he did have a quality offload, he was a powerful in tight carrier with the ability to slip an intelligent offload. In general his in tight work was of a very high standard but his scrummaging stood out compared to his peers, although it is worth noting he was part of a very strong scrum overall albeit a key lynchpin of it.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Just clarifying, did you just say that Vunipola has a better work rate in defence than Faletau?

Just to be clear now, stronger != better, but my post falls foul of an edit and lack of proof reading.