Lions Captaincy 2017

[munstermuffin]

Just noticed no thread on this and laying it out there.
After this weekend it has got interesting.

Scotland have a captain who won't tour I feel.

England had a captain that strangely didn't seem confident or comfortable today as captain and had players talk for him.

Ireland yesterday had a captain that twice saw players go against his wishes a bit.

And Wales had a captain that seems to be undermined a bit.

So who will lead the Lions?

Read an article today that Conor Murray is a serious contender. But while I feel he's a starter he's no experience as a captain.

Warburton I feel is favourite but will he be a starter?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's no real stand out, to be fair.

Warburton is probably Gatland's first choice, but he's not a guaranteed starter. In years gone by you could look at the 4 country's captains for a choice, but there isn't really a lot there (AWJ shouldn't captain because he's a spineless jelly, Hartley isn't a guaranteed starter, Best isn't a guaranteed starter, Laidlaw isn't a guaranteed starter).


There's been a few articles knocking about about the possibility of Farrell. Whilst he wouldn't be my choice, it's a possibility. Gatland definitely rates him (as he picked him 4 years ago) and the senior players on the last tour said how he was a real leader even at a young age (I remember POC saying how he was the loudest voice in the changing room).
He's not a guaranteed starter, certainly not after today, and doesn't have any experience (not sure if he's ever captained Saracens?), but he's as close as any of the other options, and definitely in the conversation.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Doesn't Jonny Gray captain Glasgow? I consider him to be a nailed on starter at this point. And I wouldn't object to Stander either.

 

[munstermuffin]

Jonny Gray would be my pick to start for sure and wouldn't argue with him.

Yeah Olyy that was the game in Hong Kong that Paulie was praising him in dressing room after. I do know Munster lads came back with great respect for Farrell.

I don't know if experience as a captain will come in to it as there is no real guaranteed spot.

 

[Mumbles119]

Doesn't Jonny Gray captain Glasgow? I consider him to be a nailed on starter at this point. And I wouldn't object to Stander either.

Haha snap! Just proposed Jonny Gray in response to the question on the Eng Italy thread.

Must be the natural choice, after all incumbent captains are discounted, and you start to think of who would stand up and not take a step back style of leader. Then the thought of picking J Gray seems rather natural.

Or maybe C J Stander? But he does come across as a genuinely nice guy ( as a few friends of mine who met him recently will testify ). So maybe the grim determination of Gray still win the choice.

 

[Peat]

I've got no issue with captains losing the odd argument with fly-halves over what they should do in the game. They're not automatically right and the fly-half is the one being paid to think most about the game plan.

The starter thing is the real issue. None of the guys named so far should be considered guaranteed starters (if fit) at all. I'd go as far as to say the only guaranteed starters in the team full stop at the moment are the Irish props and half-backs. Not sure I want any of them as captain (not disputing Sexton's ability to motivate, but there's more to captaincy than that).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'd be surprised if Gatland doesn't choose a forward as captain. Has he ever chosen a back to captain his side?

 

[Saint4805]

Glasgow had a dual captaincy of J Gray and Henry Pyrgos until Ali Price displaced the latter. It worked pretty well with one leading the forwards and the other the backs.

While this can work on the pitch a Lions tour captain should be appointed.

 

[McTallshort]

In a team that's going to have amount of experienced test players in it that the Lions will have does it make a blind bit of difference who the captain is?

 

[munstermuffin]

In a team that's going to have amount of experienced test players in it that the Lions will have does it make a blind bit of difference who the captain is?

Yes. Captaincy is vital for dealing with ref and that has a bearing 100%

 

[Saint4805]

It'll be AWJ or Warburton. Gatland has to keep one eye on maintaining the Welsh dressing room

 

[Mumbles119]

Yes. Captaincy is vital for dealing with ref and that has a bearing 100%

Completely agree. I think this is one on the key reasons why a forward is so commonly the captain, so they are with the Rf and talking to the Ref at every stoppage or restart set piece. Additionally a forward pack being beaten or going backwards will usually make the back line talent a moot point, so a motivator and leader from the front is also so commonly needed, i.e. Paul O'Connell, Martin Johnson...

For myself, every team I have played in where the captain has been in the back line, we always had a very strong pack leader who was also introduced to the Ref too.

So I would assume that the Lions would need a key pack leader ( i.e. a captain equivalent) in the forwards if a back is selected as on pitch captain. Are there any examples of teams with back line captains that did have a 2nd captain in the forwards?

We could then have Sexton and Jonny Gray.

 

[Saint4805]

^^ I just gave the example of Glasgow a few posts further up. This was introduced by Gregor Townsend and has worked well. It makes complete sense for there to be forwards captain and a backs captain - usually one of the half backs. It's not a problem for the ref who can deal with both.

 

[Mumbles119]

^^ I just gave the example of Glasgow a few posts further up. This was introduced by Gregor Townsend and has worked well. It makes complete sense for there to be forwards captain and a backs captain - usually one of the half backs. It's not a problem for the ref who can deal with both.

Sorry Saint4805, thank you for the direction to that, I am still in morning groggy mode!

As well as Townsend, I assume it must be a very commonly done thing, and that a Ref will expect it. I suppose there has to be hierarchy between the two captains though, which the Ref will also need to know.

 

[Goodey]

When Johnson captained in 1997, he was neither captain of club (Dean Richards) nor country (Dallaglio), had just led Leicester a few times in Richards' end of career injuries.

I'm not expecting Gatland to suddenly unearth a leader like that but we have to bear in mind most players have leadership qualities both on and off field that we don't know about and there is going to be lots of material outside of the national captaincy. I kind of hope the captaincy goes to someone unexpected as we'll know a bit more about them.

Probably whichever decision is made will be slagged off as the wrong one when NZ tun out to shockingly be better than us but hey ho

 

[Saint4805]

When Johnson captained in 1997, he was neither captain of club (Dean Richards) nor country (Dallaglio), had just led Leicester a few times in Richards' end of career injuries.

I'm not expecting Gatland to suddenly unearth a leader like that but we have to bear in mind most players have leadership qualities both on and off field that we don't know about and there is going to be lots of material outside of the national captaincy. I kind of hope the captaincy goes to someone unexpected as we'll know a bit more about them.

Probably whichever decision is made will be slagged off as the wrong one when NZ tun out to shockingly be better than us but hey ho

All this talk about captain when the biggest mistake of all is appointing Rob Howley as head attack coach. This is going to cost them the series.

It's not just the captain who gives the pre-match team talks. A few senior players will take turns along with the coaches. For me the coaching appointments are much more critical.

 

[Peat]

Nothing's getting changed about Howley so it isn't a very interesting conversation.

The captain is unknown so it is.

 

[Saint4805]

Nothing's getting changed about Howley so it isn't a very interesting conversation.

The captain is unknown so it is.

The only unknown about the captain is whether it's AWJ or Warburton. Riveting stuff.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

All this talk about captain when the biggest mistake of all is appointing Rob Howley as head attack coach. This is going to cost them the series.

It's not just the captain who gives the pre-match team talks. A few senior players will take turns along with the coaches. For me the coaching appointments are much more critical.

You could have Schmidt Cotter and Jones combined and this tour is lost - Impossible schedule.

I think Heaslip should captain, he'd be a guaranteed starter if I was coaching and is a good leader and well liked in camps.

 

[Saint4805]

You could have Schmidt Cotter and Jones combined and this tour is lost - Impossible schedule.

I think Heaslip should captain, he'd be a guaranteed starter if I was coaching and is a good leader and well liked in camps.

Agreed but Howley's appointment is just a fate sealer as opposed to at least giving themselves some kind of chance. This will be Gatland's last Lions tour. Either Schmidt or Jones will lead in South Africa 2021.

I can't see Gatland going for anyone other than AWJ or Warburton as he know them both well. It'll be whichever one he feels is most nailed for a starting test spot.