Loophole in Eligibility laws welcomed news for Pacific Island Nation

[IKALETAHI]

If it was unfair back then it is unfair now.

"The Universe consists of non-simultaneously apprehended events" - Buckminster Fuller We must always be willing to revise and update what we believe in

Seriously though as a Tongan personally I have no Problem with players like George Smith, Anthony Tuitavake, Frank Halai, Sitaleki Timani, and Sam Tuitupou representing Tonga. The Proud people Tongans are this would only be a good thing for them. Hopefully it gives Tonga a better chance of advancing to the Quarter Finals not to say the players before them couldnt do the Job. I think for the NZ fans the bigger Issue will be the amount of players that are brought up through the NZ system opting for bigger money in Europe. The way rugby is going I doubt the All Blacks jersey has the pulling power that it once did.

So players like Augustine Pulu, Ben Tameifuna,Nasi Manu,Pauliasi Manu, George Moala, Liaki Moli,Ofa Tu'ungafasi etc might not hang around for an All Black Jersey (Not to say all of them would be All Blacks, But Experience the Islands would welcome regardless)and opt for bigger money in Europe automatically qualifying them for Tonga. The same for the players like Tim Nanai Williams, Bundee Aki, Robbie Fruean etc could all end up playing for Samoa next year. So as good as this loophole is for the Polynesian Islands, I think good things were to come regardless.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Thank you Fish for speaking on Frank Bunces and dons behalf.

I asked not to stray away from the subject and what does the next person do?...

If you read our first traded posts on this thread, Frank Bunce was just an example to dons post. Just to show that what he doesnt want to happen (and I understand why) with players playing for one country and then playing for another has already happened FACT!

Bunce was playing for the Manu and then he played for the All Blacks. The Manu had him, he did well, and when the All Blacks realised just how good he was in that RWC, they took him back so Samoa lost a player. I dont want to get into a war of words over lost and gain 'cos I'd say we're both right.

I did realise that Bunce had that option to go back to the ABs, if he played well, so you could say the Manu was being used by the NZRFU in Bunces case. Did our people moan? no and believe me some people moan about this kind of stuff happening to their country.

Like I said before he was just an example of what don doesnt want to happen but the thing is, if its ok for the ABs, why cant it be ok for us?.. everything else is just an excuse. To say Bunce was just loaned to the Samoans is kind of insulting to our national side, and then when we get the chance to do what the ABs did SOME Kiwis quickly get off their butt to say 'no, no, you're not allowed to play for them, you played for us, we dont care if you're tier 2, 100% Fijian, Kiwi accent like Sitiveni, we dont care that you've served our country well and wish to represent your ethnicity with pride like you did ours just dont put their jersey on, Bunce? oh Bunce was a different story etc..' it is what it is.

Anyway lets get back to the thread and not Bunce. Go back and read it from the start and you'll see what I mean. Agree with the other things you said though Fish, not certain about that N.H thing though but nice of you to speak on their behalf

I don't think you understand what I have a problem with. If Bunce had been raised in Samoa, played for them, then defected to NZ I would be saying it isn't right that he plays for NZ. I think I even made a comment on here regarding Fekitoa; I think it is a bit dubious he is playing for us and if I was Tongan I would be a bit annoyed as he came to NZ at the age of 17 or something when he had done a bit of developing already. However, I have no problem at all with players born here, raised here and trained here representing NZ, regardless of where their parents were born.

I don't like the rules about dual u20 reps (As mentioned above), and I definitely didn't like the rule where you could play for two international sides at senior level - which is why I'm dismayed at them bringing it back in.

But to have you complaining about NZ born, raised and trained players playing for NZ is a pretty stupid position to take.

 

[goodNumber10]

and so it begins:

Tuitavake seeks Tonga switch

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9406084,00.html

 

[Sam Owen]

But to have you complaining about NZ born, raised and trained players playing for NZ is a pretty stupid position to take.

Its pretty stupid considering Im not even complaining lol. Provide proof of a post where Im complaining about Bunce going to the ABs. I mentioned that my country understood and I think I made it clear I too understood that he had that option of playing in the ABs.

Remember you first post? I just used Bunce as an example that there has been a scenario where one player has played for a country and then played for another. Everything else your saying in going deeper with Bunce IMO, is just branching off to cover up how I simply just answered your question and informed you of the past.

See take a look here, underneath was your initial post..

So every player in NZ, Aus, SA, England or whoever outside the national squad should be fine to go play for someone else?! you realise how that would make a joke of the international game right?

This was my reply, this was where I was simply seeking to make an example to your quote, Ive bolded on your quote above which insinuates that at the time you had no knowledge or simply forgotten that its happened before and my response underneath..

I dont think it'll make it a joke. I think you and I will still watch the games regardless.

Besides its already been done. One example was the Manu losing Frank Bunce, did we moan? no we didnt, we understood.

Then once I covered that up for you then defected and concentrated more on Bunce??..instead of you acknowledging I made a valid point, you look to poke holes in a very good example. Bunce was just an example!!

Is that Auckland born and raised Frank Bunce (with mainly Niuean heritage) you are referring to? Who only played for them to go to the World Cup (as he wasn't in the AB squad) while knowing that it wouldn't affect his future eligibility for the AB's? How exactly did Samoa lose him?

 

[donmcdazzle]

Its pretty stupid considering Im not even complaining lol. Provide proof of a post where Im complaining about Bunce going to the ABs. I mentioned that my country understood and I think I made it clear I too understood that he had that option of playing in the ABs.

Remember you first post? I just used Bunce as an example that there has been a scenario where one player has played for a country and then played for another. Everything else your saying in going deeper with Bunce IMO, is just branching off to cover up how I simply just answered your question and informed you of the past.

See take a look here, underneath was your initial post..



This was my reply, this was where I was simply seeking to make an example to your quote, Ive bolded on your quote above which insinuates that at the time you had no knowledge or simply forgotten that its happened before and my response underneath..



Then once I covered that up for you then defected and concentrated more on Bunce??..instead of you acknowledging I made a valid point, you look to poke holes in a very good example. Bunce was just an example!!

Bunce was a great example cause he showed what a joke the system was and why it shouldn't be happening again. He was a NZ born, raised and trained player who took advantage of the rules to make a joke of intl rugby by playing for Samoa to play a World Cup and get more exposure to eventually make the ABs.

The bit that was dumb of you was saying Samoa somehow lost a player that wasn't born there, wasn't raised there, and played none of his rugby there.

 

[Sam Owen]

Bunce was a great example cause he showed what a joke the system was and why it shouldn't be happening again. He was a NZ born, raised and trained player who took advantage of the rules to make a joke of intl rugby by playing for Samoa to play a World Cup and get more exposure to eventually make the ABs.

The bit that was dumb of you was saying Samoa somehow lost a player that wasn't born there, wasn't raised there, and played none of his rugby there.

I'll be the bigger man here and say 'point taken' and I sincerely do see your point but for cryin out loud it was just an example!!

You obviously looking to poke holes where I was trying to make you aware as Ive already discussed and now you're carrying on to..whats it now? oh, now we're focusing on how I said Samoa lost a player now is it?

The point was already made that its already happened!

Why cant you just say point taken?.. I guess that says a lot about you.

Get over it don, we both know you're ducking.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I'll be the bigger man here and say 'point taken' and I sincerely do see your point but for cryin out loud it was just an example!!

You obviously looking to poke holes where I was trying to make you aware as Ive already discussed and now you're carrying on to..whats it now? oh, now we're focusing on how I said Samoa lost a player now is it?

The point was already made that its already happened!

Why cant you just say point taken?.. I guess that says a lot about you.

Get over it don, we both know you're ducking.

What exactly am I ducking? You brought up Bunce and said Samoa lost him - I then pointed out that Samoa never actually lost him (and you'll note it is the only part of your post I disagreed with). I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to understand, but it is frustrating that it took me about 5 posts to get there.

I acknowledge it was done in the past (like with our old mate Buncey), I never disputed that. But I think we can all agree it was a pretty woeful situation and made a mockery of the international game, hence they closed that option off.

 

[Sam Owen]

What exactly am I ducking? You brought up Bunce and said Samoa lost him - I then pointed out that Samoa never actually lost him (and you'll note it is the only part of your post I disagreed with). I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to understand, but it is frustrating that it took me about 5 posts to get there.

Well at least you got there. Bunce was just an example, like I mentioned in the first post and then you tried to make it about Bunce. BUNCE WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE!!! FAR OUT!!

The Samoa losing Bunce thing came way after and was how you steered away from what we were discussing.

I acknowledge it was done in the past (like with our old mate Buncey), I never disputed that. But I think we can all agree it was a pretty woeful situation and made a mockery of the international game, hence they closed that option off.

Finally, you acknowledged it. Great. It wouldve been nicer to hear you say 'valid point' or 'point taken' but you not saying this just further enforces that you were simply tryin to poke holes. Well now you're not ducking.

 

[Thingimubob]

Here is, as far as I can tell, the key Regulation...

[TEXTAREA]8.7 A Player who is a national of the country or Union for which he has been captured under Regulation 8.2 and who holds the nationality of another country or Union, may apply to participate in an Olympic Event to represent his new country or Union subject to the following conditions;

...

8.7.2 The Player will be required to observe and demonstrate a stand down period of at least 3 years since the time the Player last represented their former Union and the time the Player first plays for the second Union or country, which must be in an Olympic Event. The Player may not represent the second Union in any other form of the Game until after they have participated in such Olympic Event.[/TEXTAREA]


I agree there is a loophole, but its hardly one that will have players flooding to exploit.

► No test rugby for three years
► After that they would have to wait until an Olympic qualifying event
► The timing would have to be right


Circumstances could result in a player having to wait for as long as seven years before playing for their new union. While the 2014/15 iRB World Sevens Series is a qualifying event, the 15/16. 16/17, and 17/18 events are not, so, for example, a player who last played for his current national team in late 2012 would be too late to qualify for the 2016 Olympics so he would not be able to represent a new union until 2019 because the first available Olympic Qualifying event will be the 2018/19 iRB World Series.

I really cannot see the iRB allowing this loophole to remain open, if it even is really a loophole anyway. What I think you will find will happen is that, with Sevens being an Olympic Sport (and therefore having to comply with Olympic National Eligibility criteria), the iRB will change Regulation 8 to have Sevens and Fifteens eligibility treated separately. i.e., if you play Sevens for one country, it will only capture your eligibility for Sevens, not for Fifteens. You may be able to switch countries to play Sevens, but your eligibility for Fifteens will remain with the country you first played Fifteens for.

I don't feel this is unreasonable as Sevens has over the years morphed into a different game from Fifteens with different styles of play and significantly different tactics. It even has different Laws (apart from the obvious ones relating to the number of players and the length of the match).


ETA: I believe this might close the loophole anyway

[TEXTAREA]8.9.1 Where the Player has been captured under Regulation 8.2 for a Union he
shall remain captured for such Union notwithstanding the Player’s
representation for the Olympic Sevens Team of a National Olympic
Committee in an Olympic Event;[/TEXTAREA]

For reference...

[TEXTAREA]8.2 A Player who has played for the senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of a Union is not eligible to play for the senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National
Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team
of another Union.[/TEXTAREA]

Still can't seem anything there on teams that will be playing in the qualifying series, but can't actually qualify. Or what having a British passport means, does it cover all home nations bar Ireland, or will they need to qualify via normal IRB rules too?

 

[FrenchFan]

Alex Tulou the burly No8 of Montpellier has officially applied for a French passport and wants to play for his new country - he is welcome, Picamoles cannot leave Toulouse

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/xv-de...r-pour-le-xv-de-france_sto4349440/story.shtml

Kockott is next....

 

[IKALETAHI]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...rigade-a-success/story-fnjbar2l-1227024741147

George Smith's Manager has confirmed Tonga has approached Smith to make the switch, What an addition He would be to Tongas World Cup Plans. Smith was one of the best Openside Flankers during last yrs Super Rugby campaign. Mark Gerrard and Daniel Halangahu are keen to make the switch as well. I dont know what Mark Gerrard's form is like. I didnt watch too many Melbourne Rebels games when He was with them.

15.Mark Gerrard/Tevita Halaifonua
14.George Moala/Anthony Tuitavake/Fetu'u Vainikolo
13.Lifeimi Mafi/Anthony Tuitavake
12.Sam Tuitupou
11.Frank Halai/George Moala/Fetu'u Vainikolo
10.Daniel Halangahu/Kurt Morath
9.August Pulu/Taniela Moa/Wayne Ngaluafe
8.Nasi Manu
7.George Smith
6.Nili Latu/Sione Kalamafoni/Viliami Ma'afu
5.Steve Mafi/Sam Wykes
4.Sitaleki Timani/Sam Wykes/Keliti Vaingalo/Tukulua Lokotui
3.Ben Tameifuna/Ben Afeaki/
2.Saia Faingaa/Elvis Taione/Tolu Latu/Paul Ngauamo
1.Sona Taumalolo/Pauliasi Manu/Ma'afu Fia

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Hopefully Cornell Du Preez and WP Nel for scotland now

 

[LittleGuy]

I wonder if the IRB thought this would reach farcical levels of farce so early. This loophole's going to first turn the 7's series and than later 15's compettions into a joke. What a stain on rugby, all the positives of inclusion in the Olympics immediately flushed down the toilet.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hopefully Cornell Du Preez and WP Nel for scotland now

Seeing as neither have been capped by SA this loophole has zero relevance to them.
If anything it'd make it harder for them as they'd need a British passport.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Seeing as neither have been capped by SA this loophole has zero relevance to them.
If anything it'd make it harder for them as they'd need a British passport.

how do you know they dont have a british passport

 

[TRF_heineken]

how do you know they dont have a british passport

Well I know that WP Nel doesn't have a british passport, nor has any extended family with one. He also doesn't have a long lost grandfather/mother that has one either. He is a project player, and will have to be in Scotland the full prescribed period to have a shot at one day playing for them, and by thet time that happens, he will be close to retirement...

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

ok, would you know anything about Cornell Du Preez

 

[TRF_heineken]

ok, would you know anything about Cornell Du Preez

nope, can't say that I do.

I do however know that Josh Strauss is eligible for a British Passport.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

nope, can't say that I do.

I do however know that Josh Strauss is eligible for a British Passport.

to be honest i dont mind to see Josh Strauss getting capped for scotland but i'm not sure if he would regularly start for scotland he would be up against David Denton and Johnnie Beattie at 8, at 7 there is Brown and Barclay and at 6 there is Rob Harley and Ryan Wilson, so there is alot off competition so he might not start

 

[Geordie]

Personally i dont think George Smith or Gerrard should be allowed to play for Tonga.

It just makes the whole thing a mockery.

They have played and had successful careers with one country they should not be given the oppertunity to have their cake and eat it by now representing the country ofr their ancestors etc.

Likewise Steffon Armitage should not be allowed to play for France.

i hope the IRb really monitor this whole area very closely.