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Newbie So whats up with the haka?

H

Hosscooper

Guest
Howdy from Texas. Ok so whats with the whole haka thing? Is it a an actual war dance? is it a challenge? Why did those Irish boys come across the halfway line? Where I come from that is gonna start a fight! I'm part American Indian myself so I understand the whole pysche your opponet out thing, but why do they do it? Y'alls opinion? HOSSC
 
O

O'Rothlain

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HOSS C. @ Jul 16 2009, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Howdy from Texas. Ok so whats with the whole haka thing? Is it a an actual war dance? is it a challenge? Why did those Irish boys come across the halfway line? Where I come from that is gonna start a fight! I'm part American Indian myself so I understand the whole pysche your opponet out thing, but why do they do it? Y'alls opinion? HOSSC[/b]
Good questions from someone new to the sport. Let me welcome you to TRF as a fellow american. Rugby is a global sport based on sportsmanship and tradition. It is a gentleman's sport, not a thugs sport (even though I think in America it is promoted as a thugish sport). So, now on to the Haka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka_of_the_All_Blacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka_in_popular_culture#Schools
Read up on it. Most of us who come new to the sport have. I'm not a kiwi, although I have some really good friends here in Oklahoma (Yes, the state above you) that are, and it's hard for me to fully explain the cultural aspects of it. Hopefully some Kiwis will answer you as well. It is a war dance, probably the same thing Captain Cook saw on his Pacific voyages. The All Blacks (as well as the Highschool and College Clubs, I believe) carry on this tradition by laying down a challange. That's what the Haka is, a challenge.

Different teams respond to this challenge differently. Some ignore it. Some respectfully observe it. Some, like my proud Irish boys, have from time to time walked right up to it in defiance.
At the end of the day it is great theater, tradition and craic, in my opinion. It is something that those of us not from NZ, or any of the other Pacific Island Nations, can take away from them.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Where I come from that is gonna start a fight![/b]
Well, keep your temper in check and bring that fight to the pitch, where it belongs. That's what all the great opponents of the All Blacks do.

The Irish aren't the only ones to have marched up to the Haka. The Australian National Rugby League Team did so last year in the RLWC Final. It was intense.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x350zl_ir...ll-blacks-h_fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fg4FyhZ-Kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc3RtK9d_kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6hSM9Nphd0<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka" target="_blank">
</a>
 
N

Nickdnz

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HOSS C. @ Jul 17 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Howdy from Texas. Ok so whats with the whole haka thing? Is it a an actual war dance? is it a challenge? Why did those Irish boys come across the halfway line? Where I come from that is gonna start a fight! I'm part American Indian myself so I understand the whole pysche your opponet out thing, but why do they do it? Y'alls opinion? HOSSC[/b]
Yeah, it's part of cultural identity of New Zealanders. It is a traditional Maori war dance issued as a challenge. It was added to intimidate as well as incorperate Maori heritage in our national sport. I think most New Zealanders have a certain amount of pride in it and that's why it's there. Why do people cross over and walk up to the Haka? Usially to try and show they are not intimidated, however it is actully a sign of disrespect, and that's why it looks like their is going to be a fight when people do that, because there could well be.
 
K

kaftka

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Jul 17 2009, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Why do people cross over and walk up to the Haka? Usially to try and show they are not intimidated, however it is actully a sign of disrespect, and that's why it looks like their is going to be a fight when people do that, because there could well be.[/b]

I disagree with that.

A sign of disrespect would be to huddle or face away from the haka altogether. To ignore it. I think you can't show any more respect than to face up to the challenge... If they walk on up nose to nose with the opposition, so be it. I'm sure both teams would get fired up over that, but none of them would think it disrespectful I think.
 
C

C A Iversen

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaftka @ Jul 17 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Jul 17 2009, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do people cross over and walk up to the Haka? Usially to try and show they are not intimidated, however it is actully a sign of disrespect, and that's why it looks like their is going to be a fight when people do that, because there could well be.[/b]

I disagree with that.

A sign of disrespect would be to huddle or face away from the haka altogether. To ignore it. I think you can't show any more respect than to face up to the challenge... If they walk on up nose to nose with the opposition, so be it. I'm sure both teams would get fired up over that, but none of them would think it disrespectful I think.
[/b][/quote]

I think there are degrees of repsect. I think it'd quite respectful to face up and challenge, all the way upto the halfway line. Crossing that implies that the "challenged team" are invading the space of the challengers. That can be tolerated, but not condoned. There is a point where if you are right up close to your opposition (about 2-3 inches in some cases I've seen), that you may get contact happening.

In some of these situations this has almost happened. My prediction is that it will happen sooner or later. If the contact is significant enough, however accidental, there is a chance of a conflict breaking out. That is why I think the halfway line should be sacred in this challenge situation.

As it stands 99% of the time it's an awesome build up to a great showdown.
 
S

Steve-o

Guest
What honestly gives the haka any credibility, is that the All Blacks are so good. Many island nations have a "haka" but they aren't given nearly much attention. Onto the issue of walking up to the 50 line during the haka. Interesting observation, I've never seen the Boks walk up like that and they consistently have the best win record against the AB's. Perhaps too much respect is shown doing this? One of the more contraversal walk-abouts was the done when Wales played them last year. They ended up getting beaten 9-29. So is walking up really brave and challenging? We all know Ireland have never beaten them so lets skip that argument. However! The French! That haka challenge in the 2007 RWC was epic, and it turned out to be a history making game.
 
F

Flux

Guest
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.
 
C

C A Iversen

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
 
S

Steve-o

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 17 2009, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
[/b][/quote]
That's either fence sitting to the max or sarcasm. Nobody wants a fight before kick-off, nooo, that can only happen during the game :p

BTW I'm not saying challenging the Haka is a bad thing (not this topic again..) all I'm saying is that walking up to the Haka and getting tonked is as feable as if the AB's weren't good at rugby.

I know teams do this to inspire confidence, I call it 'chicken before the egg' confidence (except France). They acting confident eventhough it has no grounding aka optimism (except France). Which is all and well if it works! Soon it will become custom to walk up if you think you're not good enough, because the teams who actually do it get tonked (except France).

In fact, lets give the French the sole rights to it! :D
 
F

Flux

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 17 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
[/b][/quote]

Naturally I see your point and I doubt that it would be long before some idiot like Ma'a Nonu took a swing at someone for 'disrespecting' him. I don't think the Haka will ever resort to that on the International stage and it should obviously stay that way.

But I still love to see a good Haka. :D
 
C

C A Iversen

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Jul 17 2009, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 17 2009, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
[/b][/quote]
That's either fence sitting to the max or sarcasm. Nobody wants a fight before kick-off, nooo, that can only happen during the game :p

BTW I'm not saying challenging the Haka is a bad thing (not this topic again..) all I'm saying is that walking up to the Haka and getting tonked is as feable as if the AB's weren't good at rugby.

I know teams do this to inspire confidence, I call it 'chicken before the egg' confidence (except France). They acting confident eventhough it has no grounding aka optimism (except France). Which is all and well if it works! Soon it will become custom to walk up if you think you're not good enough, because the teams who actually do it get tonked (except France).

In fact, lets give the French the sole rights to it! :D
[/b][/quote]

Of course it's sarcasm Steve-o. Now I have to ask, how many of you are blind? Or too young to remember? The Haka has slowly and steadily grown in intensity over the years. It's nothing like the joke-like one from the 70's, It's nothing like the evolutionary jump it made when Buck Shelford helped give it the make-over and the mana it deserved. It's a little different from the haka it was in the 90's. It's far more intense. Thats not disputable or you just don't know rugby Hakas.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with how it is done now, not saying that at all. I'm not saying that the opposition can't advance on it and get close. I just don't think that crossing the halfway line is the way to go. My perogative to suggest that and I'm not changing my opinion for the world.

Anyone who looks at the Rugby League World Cup final haka and can tell me that it was miles away from a potential conflict breaking out is blind to the evolution of the haka and the response over the last 20-25 years. At the end of it there was shirt grabbing and shoving, which is the next step before a fight breaks out.

It's a matter of time, if you guys all want them nose to nose screaming at each other and just to a hairs-breadth of touching each other and think it'll stay that way forever without a fight, then stay in the fairyland you live in.

I just don't get the obsession of pushing the experience to a newer, then a newer, then a newer level, something will give one day. Just don't say you weren't a part of it.

P.S. Well said Flux! I love a good Haka too! And intense, but lets keep a thin line a thin line aye? :)
 
N

Nickdnz

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 17 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
[/b][/quote]
Yes it will be someone like Ma'a Nonu, not because he is an idiot but simply because getting in someones face is bound to prevoke a reaction. If anyone has ever been in a rugby match, and someone gets in your face, I personally would react by pushing that person off, and in return I think a fight would start. I agree that it is best to keep a distance away in order not to prevoke the team giving the Haka. In matches at school, when another school does a Haka, yes it is supposed to be taken as a challenge, but it is also something you respect.
Naturally I see your point and I doubt that it would be long before some idiot like Ma'a Nonu took a swing at someone for 'disrespecting' him. I don't think the Haka will ever resort to that on the International stage and it should obviously stay that way.

But I still love to see a good Haka. :D
[/b][/quote]
I think it is still a good idea to show respect to a Haka by not getting in someones face, as the natural reaction to that is going to be physical contact.
 
W

William18

Guest
I don't think you can disrespectfully respond to the haka before an All Black's game. People get too pedantic about it. We are setting down a challenge in the way of the Maori people. You can respond however you like. I don't think we can say you have to stand there and watch this. If it was a haka welcoming someone and you ignored then that would be disrespectful.
 
C

Charles

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Jul 17 2009, 07:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 17 2009, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
[/b][/quote]
That's either fence sitting to the max or sarcasm. Nobody wants a fight before kick-off, nooo, that can only happen during the game :p

BTW I'm not saying challenging the Haka is a bad thing (not this topic again..) all I'm saying is that walking up to the Haka and getting tonked is as feable as if the AB's weren't good at rugby.

I know teams do this to inspire confidence, I call it 'chicken before the egg' confidence (except France). They acting confident eventhough it has no grounding aka optimism (except France). Which is all and well if it works! Soon it will become custom to walk up if you think you're not good enough, because the teams who actually do it get tonked (except France).

In fact, lets give the French the sole rights to it! :D
[/b][/quote]




Agreed :bravo: :D


Btw...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhyxfmoSxOA
 
C

C A Iversen

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Jul 17 2009, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Jul 17 2009, 07:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 17 2009, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Jul 17 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't see the problem with getting as close as possible during the Haka, aside from the fact that it could lead to an all out brawl, but it's up to the officials to sort that. It is a challenge and it should be treated as such, anyone who gets their knickers in a knot when the challenge is taken up needs to think about how intimidating the Haka must be to some. Although correct me if I'm wrong, Ka Mate isn't actually supposed to be a 'challenge' as such?

Quite a few schoolboy teams have their own school Haka or regions' Haka to perform and it is a big part of the New Zealand sporting culture. At this year's school swimming sports two of the houses did Ka Mate against each other and those at the front of each group were literally in each other's faces.[/b]

I am in agreement with it, but it's a matter of time until one of the arm swinging gestures hits a "challenged" player, who shouldn't be up in your face like that. Up in your face like a metre away, fine. Up in your face like 5 centimetres or more, is asking for trouble. Culture or not, we aren't wanting violence to break out, or the good reputation of the Haka to be soiled.

I mean how close is too close? Pushing heads together? The day that the first brawl happens because of "too close" has already happened in junior levels, it must not come to tests. A punch up prior to the kick-off is not what anyone wants.

Or is it?
[/b][/quote]
That's either fence sitting to the max or sarcasm. Nobody wants a fight before kick-off, nooo, that can only happen during the game :p

BTW I'm not saying challenging the Haka is a bad thing (not this topic again..) all I'm saying is that walking up to the Haka and getting tonked is as feable as if the AB's weren't good at rugby.

I know teams do this to inspire confidence, I call it 'chicken before the egg' confidence (except France). They acting confident eventhough it has no grounding aka optimism (except France). Which is all and well if it works! Soon it will become custom to walk up if you think you're not good enough, because the teams who actually do it get tonked (except France).

In fact, lets give the French the sole rights to it! :D
[/b][/quote]




Agreed :bravo: :D


Btw...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhyxfmoSxOA
[/b][/quote]

Thanks so much Charles, you've proven my theory completely. Good find and sad, but true.
 
S

shazbooger

Guest
My personal favourite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eGCsEQ15L4, closely follwed by the Munster one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVufrShzUBw

I love the different responses to the Haka, everything from Ireland stepping forward (fun that one), Frances flag, Tonga's counter war dance, or Campese just running around kicking a ball and ignoring it.

Its all a bit overanalysed but I dont see a problem with it so the whole "debate" is kinda funny.

The Haka is part of rugby tradition, its very special and while everyone has an opinion, we all enjoy it. However if they dont want teams to get in their face do it in the dressing room (like you did in Cardiff). If your looking to put down a challenge, accept one in return. Quit *****ing, do your thing, and if the opposition swing for you then return the favour with interest. If not, then play the game.

This whole "you must stay this far back, and be respectful yadda yadda yadda" is nonsense.

Oh and Steve, we didnt lose because we advanced those times, we lost because New Zealand were a better rugby team (though the Under 19's gave the AB's a good run in that game) :)
 
S

shazbooger

Guest
Ahhh the old throat slitting gesture.

We should sit idly by and respect that too?
 
M

monkeypigeon

Guest
Its actually about drawing the breath of life...CLEARLY.

Well maybe it is a small bit ambigious.
 

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