Overhype of "world's best" Dan Cole

[ZeFrenchy]

The really hard done by group in this conversation are the French imo.

Appreciate that, but at the moment we're in some kind of a propping crisis. Apart Nicolas Mas (who, yes, has been a bit ignored in this thread, except the OP), there's a huge void at TH. And,at LH, Domingo hasn't picked up form, Debaty is not really a good scrummager (one hell of a ball carrier though), Barcella has never been back to form since 2010, and the others (Ben Arous, Forestier, Chaume) are one international career short.

For me, the best prop in the world is Owen Franks. Nicolas Mas, Dan Cole and Adam Jones come behind, quite close one to the other imo.

 

[eot345]

Pure utter myth.

Jones is not a natural 'jackler' as someone like Gethin Jenkins / Cian Healy, some players just aren't. It doesn't come natural to them. But this nonsense of Jones contributes nothing is pure and utter rubbish. When he started his career I would have agreed that he offered nothing more than scrummaging. However his tackling is second to none, he carries, his work in the tight, his cleaning up, he also leads from the frint ... just because he doesn't provide the turnovers doesn't mean he doesn't contribute like Cole's. He contributes in a different way which goes unnoticed but is equally as important.

Last time I checked ... you pick your props to scrummage, you select the best to do that. Anything after is a bonus.

A classic enraged response to say the least, no where did I state that jones offered 'nothing in the loose' I merely pointed out it was below the contribution of dan cole. (I think Jones contributes well in the loose especially given his age and size)

Secondly this statement that international props are selected purely for their scrummaging ability is simply not true, if that were true why is nick wood not in an England jersey, why is joe marler in the England team. Why has Gethin Jenkins started for Wales. Why is chris Budgen not considered one of the best props in the prem? Why is Cian Healy considerd massive favourite to start at loose head for the lion, I think few would say he is the best scrummaging prop in the NH? (whilst imo he is better than some would give him credit for)

 

[Big Ewis]

well nick, honestly I feel that's the one thing NZ may be "lacking" not that they have a *bad* scrum, just that they can actually be dominated in that aspect by other teams, and the AB's are too good in our collective imaginations to be dominated in any department whatsoever.
Like during the 2011 final (as just one example), France was moving that pack back and worth at will the majority of the match; Brad Thorn or not.
Note: only mentioning this particular example because it's the clearest one in mind right now; not praising France for the sake of it.

Or that famous case at the end of the match in Italy when they got destroyed 50x in a row a few yrs back...

All I'm saying is: it's a shame NZ can't get even THAT to elite status. They'd have the excellent defense, attack, kicking...etc...AND scrum.
They haven't had an *excellent* scrum in years...

 

[psychic duck]

A mix of bias and ignorance, nothing's going to happen if you don't open people's eyes.

That said, I genuinely don't think of the SH props are best in the world at the moment. Australia's props obviously aren't, although better than given credit for by some. I don't think the Kiwi props are all that, but that might be because NZ scrum to create platforms and not to milk penalties, which obviously doesn't stick in the mind. I think the South African props are somewhat raw in terms of technique and achieve mainly through power, and they are picked for power to perform in the loose. My limited viewing suggests there's better scrummagers not getting Bok caps, although I may well be wrong. And the Argie props are the wrong age.

Argentina had a golden generation of props previously. Reggiardo, Hasan and Roncero etc at their peak were some of the best of their generation. They created the scrum reputation, although the current Argentine props really don't have much depth behind Figallo (a loosehead playing tighthead for them) and Ayerza. New Zealand's props aren't the world's best imo, they are adequate, but not the world's best.

There's a fairly solid body of evidence suggesting this is no longer true for a great many coaches. I'd have personally said Gethin Jenkins starting ahead of Paul James was an example, I'd have James as the better scrummager, although I may be wrong. Still plenty of other examples abound, a great many in national teams to boot; I've already said I think the Saffas do it, the Irish certainly pick for loose ability first, the English propping hierarchy underrates a lot of our best scrummagers imo, whoever's in charge at Sale doesn't appear to care, the French surely have better scrummagers than Debaty... the list can go on for a long time, adequate/good at scrum time and outstanding elsewhere is now acceptable in modern rugby. Whether it should or not is a matter of opinion, and personally the greatest part of the debate over Jones and Cole that is not directly tied to nationality.

With matches nowadays being able to be won and swung the way of the team with the dominant scrum, any team hoping to become the best must have at least an adequate scrum. I remember a Canada vs Italy match this year, where Canada were the better team in the loose, but were dominated in the scrum to the extent that they could hardly win their own ball and that lost them the game as Italy collected points from it.

The minimum required is a scrum that can hold it's own and not concede too many penalties. But especially in tight matches where sides are evenly matched, if one team can dominate scrum it can make a big difference to the scoreline.

Also from those props you named, Gethin Jenkins isn't as good as James, but he was a good scrummager, it is only recently he seems to have lost it. For example the clip below shows Jenkins in his second cap dominating New Zealand, and in 2012 he was part of a Welsh scrum which got the better of England. I don't think he's ever been as non-scrummaging prop as made out, and just these last 6 months he has struggled at Toulon and for Wales against Samoa. I wonder whether his confidence was hurt by those few months last season next to Scott Andrews when Andrews was getting shunted about by all comers.

Also Jenkins had Jones alongside, so Wales could afford not to have to select James for most of the time. And James hasn't always been the force he has become over the past few years, for a long while Duncan Jones until he suffered some big injuries was the preferred choice at the Ospreys and ahead of James with Wales.

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Whilst Debaty isn't a great scrummager, he rarely starts for Clermont. He is seen very much as an impact prop. The stats back this up, he has never started more than 7 games in a season for Clermont (http://www.itsrugby.fr/joueur_468.html), and that's from a 32 game season + playoffs and Domingo has suffered a couple of serious injuries in that time. Clermont normally started Lionel Faure or Chaume ahead of him even though Debaty may get ahead to be on the bench behind Domingo. When he did start for Clermont against Leicester last season and Leinster this season, it was a disaster scrum wise.

Considering he's 31, and has 11 France caps and just 2 starts. It would seem he is simply an impact carrying prop for them too. Not good enough scrummager to be a starter.

Sale have some awful scrummagers in their side and they aren't adequate imo, I don't know whether relegation will make the coaches realise this. I saw they conceded another penalty try against Montpellier in the H Cup, I saw Gloucester amongst others take their scrum to pieces as well. Not surprising though considering the personnel they have there. Few would consider Tony Buckley a good prop, even though he is quite handy in the loose.

I'd still rate Tony Woodcock and Owen Franks as two of the best props in the world. Steenkamp was magnificant in 2010 as some people mention - while the Beast was very good until his heart problem arose. All these guys could well be rated around the best - I'd take Owen Franks at TH over Adam Jones or Dan Cole (although they are quite similar - I just think Franks is more physical). The problem with the All Blacks scrum at the moment is that for a start we lost Brad Thorn and for another there seems to be a strange bias when viewing the games that the AB scrum isn't one of the best. It actually takes the players going over seas to be rated. No one seemed to rate big John Afoa before he went to Ulster - now some would argue he is the form prop in Europe if not at least Ireland.

The New Zealand scrum impressed me in 2011, but less so in 2012. Ireland managed to get the upperhand at times with Declan Fitzpatrick on debut. I do rate Owen Franks, but not as the world's best.

Also Adam Jones did a job on the All Black scrum in 2010. One of his scrums gave Wales the momentum for a try.

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Also you mention All Black props going overseas, and you're right Afoa has done incredibly well with Ulster (so well you wonder why he didn't go further with the All Blacks), but it's not all of their props go and be a success though. John Schwalger and Neemia Tialata for example have both been duds in the Top 14. Campbell Johnstone got destroyed in the Heineken Cup final with Biarritz.

Appreciate that, but at the moment we're in some kind of a propping crisis. Apart Nicolas Mas (who, yes, has been a bit ignored in this thread, except the OP), there's a huge void at TH. And,at LH, Domingo hasn't picked up form, Debaty is not really a good scrummager (one hell of a ball carrier though), Barcella has never been back to form since 2010, and the others (Ben Arous, Forestier, Chaume) are one international career short.

For me, the best prop in the world is Owen Franks. Nicolas Mas, Dan Cole and Adam Jones come behind, quite close one to the other imo.

What about Cencus Johnston?

He has delivered in a Heineken Cup final and a Top 14 final (as big a matches as there are for a Samoan) for Toulouse with dominant performances in the scrum (albeit with perhaps one the best scrummaging hookers in Servat). And also began to dominate Leicester (with Cole) in the second half in the first match of this season's Heineken Cup, and against Wales in November where Wales' scrum disintegrated.

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Which is why I don't think Cole is the best in the world yet, he hasn't delivered on the biggest stage in the big matches against big teams yet. Johnston has delivered in finals against big sides like Toulon, Biarritz and Leicester.

Also Johnston dominates other scrums like Toulon in the Top 14 final, every big match I see Cole such as the most recent ones with the Ospreys and Toulouse he seems to flop 90% of the time. He sometimes gets penalties from it (scrum penalties were pretty evenly split in both matches I referred to) but he doesn't seem to dominate and push the opposition backwards in most of these big games. In the first Ospreys match, Bevington was yellow carded, but he wasn't going backwards, it was after a scrum had just flopped.

Also Cencus Johnston is one of the best ball carrying props about, and that type who can make yards like this. For all the talk of Cole at the breakdown, I don't think he's that good ball carrying in the loose, and I remember him costing England a certain try against Fiji at one point.

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[nickdnz]

well nick, honestly I feel that's the one thing NZ may be "lacking" not that they have a *bad* scrum, just that they can actually be dominated in that aspect by other teams, and the AB's are too good in our collective imaginations to be dominated in any department whatsoever.
Like during the 2011 final (as just one example), France was moving that pack back and worth at will the majority of the match; Brad Thorn or not.
Note: only mentioning this particular example because it's the clearest one in mind right now; not praising France for the sake of it.

Or that famous case at the end of the match in Italy when they got destroyed 50x in a row a few yrs back...

All I'm saying is: it's a shame NZ can't get even THAT to elite status. They'd have the excellent defense, attack, kicking...etc...AND scrum.
They haven't had an *excellent* scrum in years...

You mean Stuart Dickinson's last big match? The one he got admolished for his terrible refereeing of the scrums - in which NZ should have got many multiple penalties? I also don't remember NZ's scrums getting demolished at will in the slightest to be honest - there have been matches that we've been dominated in once or twice - but I don't count that as one of them (or the one in group stages where we certainly weren't dominated. In fact in terms of props it was Tony Woodcock who scored our only try that match. The stats for the match is both teams won all their own scrums with 6/6 - hardly dominating..In 2009 we actually destroyed the French scrum - resulting in a drive over try to Kaino). Anyway - I'm not limiting it to New Zealand - pretty much anyone who doesn't play in the NH doesn't get a mention in these threads.

The New Zealand scrum impressed me in 2011, but less so in 2012. Ireland managed to get the upperhand at times with Declan Fitzpatrick on debut. I do rate Owen Franks, but not as the world's best.

Also Adam Jones did a job on the All Black scrum in 2010. One of his scrums gave Wales the momentum for a try.

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Also you mention All Black props going overseas, and you're right Afoa has done incredibly well with Ulster (so well you wonder why he didn't go further with the All Blacks), but it's not all of their props go and be a success though. John Schwalger and Neemia Tialata for example have both been duds in the Top 14. Campbell Johnstone got destroyed in the Heineken Cup final with Biarritz.

In that particular game it was John Afoa on the TH - Tony Woodcock LH - but the entire scrum disconnected - you can actually see John Afoa getting bind by the collar by Matthew Rees. Once again - if you get away with it then you can't hold it against them - but I don't think that's a fair indication of the AB's scrum (for the record - I never said I didn't think Adam Jones was good, only I preferred Owen Franks who was replaced in the 62 minute in that match. Interestingly in that match - New Zealand won all their scrums - while Wales conceded a tighthead when Owen Franks was on.

I do agree with you in regards to our 2012 performance in the scrum. We miss Thorn and Kaino. Messam has a tendency to disengadge early - while Ali Williams and Luke Romano aren't quite the powerhouse that Thorn was. Regardless - I don't think I've seen Owen Franks bettered in a scrum this year - it's poor old Woodcock/Ben Franks who have not quite been the rock.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm no expert when it comes to scrums but after having a few minutes at lock I think one really needs to factor in the hooker, locks and the prop at the other end when trying to compare prop performances. In my personal experience our scrum (UCT 4rths) had held its own (against Durbell club) until injury forced me (big winger) to play at lock (very much against my wishes) and we got murdered at the scrum from there on out due to no fault from our props.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

What about Cencus Johnston?

I was referring to french props. As for props playing in the top 14, you'd have to include people like Steenkamp, Hayman, etc.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Christ it's not as if Cole is crap in the scrum or anything.
Is he as good as Adam Jones? No.
Is literally anyone else in the world? No.

Cole is a world class scrummaging tighthead, just because he's not as good as the best in the world doesn't mean he's crap.

 

[psychic duck]

You mean Stuart Dickinson's last big match? The one he got admolished for his terrible refereeing of the scrums - in which NZ should have got many multiple penalties? I also don't remember NZ's scrums getting demolished at will in the slightest to be honest - there have been matches that we've been dominated in once or twice - but I don't count that as one of them (or the one in group stages where we certainly weren't dominated. In fact in terms of props it was Tony Woodcock who scored our only try that match. The stats for the match is both teams won all their own scrums with 6/6 - hardly dominating..In 2009 we actually destroyed the French scrum - resulting in a drive over try to Kaino). Anyway - I'm not limiting it to New Zealand - pretty much anyone who doesn't play in the NH doesn't get a mention in these threads.

No tighthead based in the SH apart from maybe Owen Franks is the world's best tighthead though. And Franks was on better form last year and hasn't been on top, even if he rarely gets dominated himself.

Also even though New Zealand won all their scrums that match, it doesn't neccesarily mean Italy weren't dominating. They could have driven the NZ scrum backwards and put pressure on the 8 and made him have untidy possession, whilst winning penalties from their own put in. Anyway that match was from 1 to 15 New Zealand's reserve XV if I remember correctly so hardly indicative of their performance in that area in general.

If there is a SH based tighthead who you think deserve a mention. Who is it?

In that particular game it was John Afoa on the TH - Tony Woodcock LH - but the entire scrum disconnected - you can actually see John Afoa getting bind by the collar by Matthew Rees. Once again - if you get away with it then you can't hold it against them - but I don't think that's a fair indication of the AB's scrum (for the record - I never said I didn't think Adam Jones was good, only I preferred Owen Franks who was replaced in the 62 minute in that match. Interestingly in that match - New Zealand won all their scrums - while Wales conceded a tighthead when Owen Franks was on.

That was because of Jonathan Thomas or Andy Powell by accident kicking the ball out from the back row in a scrum Wales were going forward in. Not Owen Franks. That wasn't as dominant for Wales as they had been against Australia the week before, but other than the first two scrums, Wales were getting on top in that match despite not winning a tonne of penalties they were going forward, especially towards the end.

I was referring to french props. As for props playing in the top 14, you'd have to include people like Steenkamp, Hayman, etc.

Christ it's not as if Cole is crap in the scrum or anything.
Is he as good as Adam Jones? No.
Is literally anyone else in the world? No.

Cole is a world class scrummaging tighthead, just because he's not as good as the best in the world doesn't mean he's crap.

Nobody said Cole is crap in the scrum. Of late he has been winning plenty of penalty tries for Leicester, and I remember he (as well as Castro from the bench) won matches through their scrum against Worcester and Gloucester of late.

But this is a debate of who's the best tighthead in the world. And seeing as you don't think Cole is the best tighthead in the world at scrummaging (at least not yet but possibly in future) then, but you do think Cole is the best tighthead in the world. You think his added work at the breakdown and tackle adds up into him being the best?

 

[smb64]

I just gotta ask - Who actually said that Cole was the best?

Sure he's had ringing praise from people like Cockerill and Heyneke Meyer, but I'm pretty sure they never said he was THE best in the world?
And I hope we're not getting this opinion from the Media, as we all should know the press will BS, twist words and super-hype to sell papers.

And if we're not saying Cole is the best, are we saying someone else is e.g. Adam Jones? Because a lot of this thread seems out to discredit Cole and promote others.

Surely this whole debate can just be settled by saying Jones is brilliant in the scrum - Cole is also good at scrum time but its that combined with his additional work in the loose that is earning him praise.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But this is a debate of who's the best tighthead in the world. And seeing as you don't think Cole is the best tighthead in the world at scrummaging (at least not yet but possibly in future) then, but you do think Cole is the best tighthead in the world. You think his added work at the breakdown and tackle adds up into him being the best?

I do, and I don't apologise for that.
It's not as if Cole doesn't contribute in clearouts/tight work as well - maybe he doesn't contribute as well there as Jones, but he is still good there. He's very well rounded, very athletic, a very strong scrummager, strong defender, strong over the ball.
If I was picking a side I'd pick him at tighthead every single time.

I just gotta ask - Who actually said that Cole was the best?

That'd be me :lol:

 

[dullonien]

Your first sentence doesn't make sense in light of Gatland's regular use of Jenkins along with a ball hog seven - it would be quite a reversal. I do like the pairing suggested in your second sentence though, and would agree with you and Cymro that talk of Jones' contribution in the loose can be understated. I don't think he offers as much as Cole, who is more than just a jackal, but Jones has been a vitally important cog for Wales.

I suppose it does slightly. But I suppose I wrote it whilst having it in the back of my mind that the Lions is likely to play a dynamic prop on the looshead in Healey. If they decide to play a more scrummaging looshead like James or Sheridan, then Cole would start to make more sense again.

 

[smb64]

That'd be me :lol:

Wow you can tell you're popular around here; a whole 8-paged thread just to discredit your opinion :lol:

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I just gotta ask - Who actually said that Cole was the best?

I didn't - but he is

Can I point out in general that if a number of people think a player is the best in his position in the world, and in reality he's only 2nd or 3d best.... that's not overhyping. Thats just having an opinion.

Cole has won more penalties against the vast majority of loosheadss than those looseheads have won against him. How his scrums perform throughout a match also varies depending on whether he's playing with Ayerza, Marler, Corbisiero, Mullipola, or Stankovich, as well as Hawkins, Chuter, Youngs, or Hartley, and n the way of locks, Lawes, Palmer, Launchbury, Botha, Slater, Kitchener, Parling, Deacon, Andrew.... probably others.

That's a huge range of variables, and to really know how Adam Jones and Dan Cole, or whoever compare, you'd have to control for each variable to eliminate selection bias ... we're obviously not going to do that, although I wouldn't be altogether surprised based on the very existence of this thread....

I suppose it does slightly. But I suppose I wrote it whilst having it in the back of my mind that the Lions is likely to play a dynamic prop on the looshead in Healey. If they decide to play a more scrummaging looshead like James or Sheridan, then Cole would start to make more sense again.

To be fair, on the jackling matter, unless your name is David Pocock you simply cannot be at every breakdown to steal every ball.. so most coaches will always look to suplement the work of a 7. Englands (sort of) resurgence has been based on having at least 5 pack members who are good over the ball.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It is overhyping if it's just people that support England and Mr. Cole who thinks that he is the WORLD'S Best.

if there was consensus from people ALL OVER THE WORLD who thinks he is the best in the world, then it will be a different story, yet nobody from NZ, Aus, South Africa, Argentina and some NH countries thinks so...

Just to point out, to me, the Opinion is, that he's the best in the Heineken Cup, and the best for England.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

It is overhyping if it's just people that support England and Mr. Cole who thinks that he is the WORLD'S Best.

if there was consensus from people ALL OVER THE WORLD who thinks he is the best in the world, then it will be a different story, yet nobody from NZ, Aus, South Africa, Argentina and some NH countries thinks so...

Just to point out, to me, the Opinion is, that he's the best in the Heineken Cup, and the best for England.

Your missing the point - its not overhyping if the player in question is at least in the mix of being up there. Dan Cole is, regardless if you think he's top of that list. Overhyping is when you really elevate your estimations of a player to a level their nowhere near. Also, everyone will always disagree when comparing each others players, apart from those very few cases of mercurial talent such as Dan Carter or Shane Wllams....does that mean that every other player ever has been overhyped just because theres no consensus?

Example. Who would you choose for your team: Etzebeth or Launchbury? They're of comparable abilities, so although your probs more likely to go for the former, having seen more of him, and me having seen more of the latter.... I would never put it down to overhyping.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wow you can tell you're popular around here; a whole 8-paged thread just to discredit your opinion :lol:

I have many leather bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[nickdnz]

In terms of over hyping - what actually always get me when ever 'the world's best' comes up - especially in the NH (not trying to be a dick) - it's that players get the label 'the world's best' over night. It's something that always bothers me. To be the best I think you need a prolonged period of great form - against the best opposition in the world. On this forum you hear Foden is the best full back, Kearney is the best fullback, Halfpenny is the best fullback - but they change from season to season. In my opinion the best fullback would be Israel Dagg - because he's consistently been the best or there abouts of a prolonged period of time - against international competition. If I was to go by many members reasoning on who was the best - it would probably be Andre Taylor who tore up in the SR as the highest try scorer - but hasn't proven himself against the best teams in the world.

Same thing with wing. It seemed to go from the best being Tommy Bowe - to Chris Ashton - to George North - to Alex Cuthbert. If someone asked me last season who the best wingers were I'd go with Habana and Shane Williams - because they have consistently been great over a number of season (then I'd say it's really Hosea Gear and Joe Rokocoko). Anyway my point being - the selections in these are so fickle. Cole is going to have three bad games in a row and suddenly England are in dire need of a new tighthead.

Also - I wonder if Dan Cole's name was Dan Cherkezishvili - would this thread be started

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

In terms of over hyping - what actually always get me when ever 'the world's best' comes up - especially in the NH (not trying to be a dick) - it's that players get the label 'the world's best' over night. It's something that always bothers me. To be the best I think you need a prolonged period of great form - against the best opposition in the world. On this forum you hear Foden is the best full back, Kearney is the best fullback, Halfpenny is the best fullback - but they change from season to season. In my opinion the best fullback would be Israel Dagg - because he's consistently been the best or there abouts of a prolonged period of time - against international competition. If I was to go by many members reasoning on who was the best - it would probably be Andre Taylor who tore up in the SR as the highest try scorer - but hasn't proven himself against the best teams in the world.

Same thing with wing. It seemed to go from the best being Tommy Bowe - to Chris Ashton - to George North - to Alex Cuthbert. If someone asked me last season who the best wingers were I'd go with Habana and Shane Williams - because they have consistently been great over a number of season (then I'd say it's really Hosea Gear and Joe Rokocoko). Anyway my point being - the selections in these are so fickle. Cole is going to have three bad games in a row and suddenly England are in dire need of as tighthead.

Also - I wonder if Dan Cole's name was Dan Cherkezishvili - would this thread be started

I see what you're saying, but when we have those conversations about foden/Kearney/1/2p we are only talking aobut the Northern hemisphere, I can guarantee you. Its usually framed as the best in the Brtish Isles or something... because to be fair, we mostly take for granted that New zealands players are usually better! If the British Lions toured tomorrow my two 8's of choice would be Heaslip and Morgan....but I think Reid is the best 8 on the planet.

I do agree though that players are hyped way too quickly, and theres a pattern to it.

In 2011 Ashton was super hyped, lost form in 2012. *By the way I think hyped is appropriate use here, since the two players Ive mentioned were often spoken of as the best wingers in the NH...*
In 2012 North was super hyped, but lost some form... the worst thing is that lots of people couldnt grasp the fact that Norths form might ever change, and that Ashtons and Norths cases were sort of parrallel.

But as I said, most of us know a good amount about Southern rugby, and arguably have more respect for it then some(not you) from down south... you wouldnt get an English winger commenting, "Whens Cory Jane back from injury to start on the wing for South Africa?"

EDIT: but just to reiterate, I do think your spot on, we do have a problem with that, but its media lead, its just that we are all guilty of following it a bit blindly.

 

[psychic duck]

Also - I wonder if Dan Cole's name was Dan Cherkezishvili - would this thread be started

Nope. Nobody ever hypes any Tier 2 players as world's best.

Apart from Tongan Sona Taumalolo who I saw named in a few World XV's this year, who got people to recognise his name thanks to being great from a metre out, but thanks to that some now hype him as the best there is.

Amused me that this article in NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10855733) claimed he "loved scrummaging" and "dominated the set piece" in November, when Tonga's scrum conceded a penalty try against Italy and was left hanging on by Scotland who were winning penalties close to Tongan line late on but after 2 or so penalties they lost control of the ball going forward.