Overhype of "world's best" Dan Cole

[smb64]

It is overhyping if it's just people that support England and Mr. Cole who thinks that he is the WORLD'S Best.

if there was consensus from people ALL OVER THE WORLD who thinks he is the best in the world, then it will be a different story, yet nobody from NZ, Aus, South Africa, Argentina and some NH countries thinks so...

Well actually your own coach thinks that Cole is "very close to being the best tighthead in the world" - http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/21618.php

Just pointing out in case you thought all the praise was coming from England only.

The debate about who is the best is silly anyway - As Henry pointed out perfectly, there are so many variables that contribute to a props performance. The reason Cole is being hyped is because of his ability to scrum AND his addition work in the loose. And of course a lot of hype is coming from England, because he is the best in England. Much like the Welsh might hype Jones. Or any other country might hype their own.

 

[psychic duck]

Well actually your own coach thinks that Cole is "very close to being the best tighthead in the world" - http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/21618.php

Just pointing out in case you thought all the praise was coming from England only.

The debate about who is the best is silly anyway - As Henry pointed out perfectly, there are so many variables that contribute to a props performance. The reason Cole is being hyped is because of his ability to scrum AND his addition work in the loose. And of course a lot of hype is coming from England, because he is the best in England. Much like the Welsh might hype Jones. Or any other country might hype their own.

Adam Jones was probably a little underrated until the 2009 Lions tour.

Even though he helped produce moments like this, he had a reputation as being remembered as that guy who was embarrassingly subbed off from 30 minutes in the Hansen days. Gatland becoming coach was the turning point in his career where he started to turn it around.

However he didn't receive much credit (unlike Gethin) until the 2009 Lions tour when he came on rescued a disastrous 40 odd minutes for Phil Vickery and the Lions scrum. Jones has had to a lot of work to get rid of that reputation he got under the poor management of Hansen.

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[TRF_Cymro]

A classic enraged response to say the least, no where did I state that jones offered 'nothing in the loose' I merely pointed out it was below the contribution of dan cole. (I think Jones contributes well in the loose especially given his age and size)

Secondly this statement that international props are selected purely for their scrummaging ability is simply not true, if that were true why is nick wood not in an England jersey, why is joe marler in the England team. Why has Gethin Jenkins started for Wales. Why is chris Budgen not considered one of the best props in the prem? Why is Cian Healy considerd massive favourite to start at loose head for the lion, I think few would say he is the best scrummaging prop in the NH? (whilst imo he is better than some would give him credit for)

Hardly enraged!

Just that your post as has others in this thread hinted that he really does nothing bar scrummaging. You go on to add above that his contribution is below that of Cole's. In terms of what? Giving away penalties? I mean c'mon how can you personally judge contribution? Each player as I mentioned before offers something different.

Also you might need to re-read what I posted RE: picking props for scrummaging. For someone who plays at prop and coaches there, from a decent point of view, you want a prop to scrummage. I have also spoken to other coaches who also agree with this, I know I am not in the minority. The statement surely must be true, if your tighthead can't scrummage ... all the best at scrum time, ask the Cardiff Blues and the Newport Gwent Dragons. You also named looseheads as your examples not tightheads (which both Coles and Jones are). Budgen is respected prop (from what I remember as early as I can remember seeing him play) so it's a slightly odd comment on your part.

 

[smb64]

Since when was Meyer the Welsh coach? :lol:

Eh? I was replying to heineken, I just assumed he is South African due to his flag? Or did you just not realize who i replied to

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Eh? I was replying to heineken, I just assumed he is South African due to his flag? Or did you just not realize who i replied to

Noticed and edited it :lol:

 

[TRF_heineken]

Your missing the point - its not overhyping if the player in question is at least in the mix of being up there. Dan Cole is, regardless if you think he's top of that list. Overhyping is when you really elevate your estimations of a player to a level their nowhere near. Also, everyone will always disagree when comparing each others players, apart from those very few cases of mercurial talent such as Dan Carter or Shane Wllams....does that mean that every other player ever has been overhyped just because theres no consensus?

Example. Who would you choose for your team: Etzebeth or Launchbury? They're of comparable abilities, so although your probs more likely to go for the former, having seen more of him, and me having seen more of the latter.... I would never put it down to overhyping.

Being up there, means other people from other nations has to agree with the assessment. Sure our coach said that, but that's because SA played against England the next weekend, so that comment is taken a bit out of context for this thread.

The pure nature of this thread is to say to the Cole-Fanboy's that: You guys are indeed overhyping the guy.

As for Etzebeth and Launchbury, I rate them both very highly, but I won't say they're the best locks in the world. For their age they are brilliant and show signs of being the best in the world. To me the best lock in the world at the moment is Paul O'Connel.

There is a very little bit of lee-way between hyping/rating a guy and over-hyping him. By over-hyping a player you're in essence saying he's better than what he is, that doesn't mean he's shitty or a poor player, it just means your patriotism towards the player is overshadowing your judgement.

It wold most certainly not be overhyping if you talked about Dan Carter, Bismarck Du Plessis, Kieran Read or Shane Williams.

On another note someone like Juan Imhoff DESERVES the hype he's getting, whereas Cole has hardly done anything to impress us SH guys. And Imhoff plays club rugby in France.

 

[big ginger 8]

In terms of over hyping - what actually always get me when ever 'the world's best' comes up - especially in the NH (not trying to be a dick) - it's that players get the label 'the world's best' over night. It's something that always bothers me. To be the best I think you need a prolonged period of great form - against the best opposition in the world. On this forum you hear Foden is the best full back, Kearney is the best fullback, Halfpenny is the best fullback - but they change from season to season. In my opinion the best fullback would be Israel Dagg - because he's consistently been the best or there abouts of a prolonged period of time - against international competition. If I was to go by many members reasoning on who was the best - it would probably be Andre Taylor who tore up in the SR as the highest try scorer - but hasn't proven himself against the best teams in the world.

Same thing with wing. It seemed to go from the best being Tommy Bowe - to Chris Ashton - to George North - to Alex Cuthbert. If someone asked me last season who the best wingers were I'd go with Habana and Shane Williams - because they have consistently been great over a number of season (then I'd say it's really Hosea Gear and Joe Rokocoko). Anyway my point being - the selections in these are so fickle. Cole is going to have three bad games in a row and suddenly England are in dire need of a new tighthead.

Also - I wonder if Dan Cole's name was Dan Cherkezishvili - would this thread be started

Think you're taking the fullback debate out of context a bit as generally it's more about the Lions also those players barring injury have been pretty consistent. Of course Dagg is quality but when those three are discussed generally its Lions. I've seen a lot of Dagg as I watch a number of Crusaders games and all the N.Z. tests but I still wouldn't say he's the best though he is always at least in my top three.

Also from those wingers yeah some people who are quite vocal jump around but that's something that happens with wingers as they are go in and out of form a lot. I'd also argue Bowe has been consistently good since 09 with an excellent strike rate especially considering the Irish game plan.

 

[j'nuh]

Are people still taking that Halfpenny/Foden/Kearney debate thing from the other day seriously? Ospreylian and I started that one as a joke.

Also, Cole is the best prop in the world because he can do the Halfpenny swirl.

 

[Draggs]

Are people still taking that Halfpenny/Foden/Kearney debate thing from the other day seriously? Ospreylian and I started that one as a joke.

Also, Cole is the best prop in the world because he can do the Halfpenny swirl.

Cole is a better fullback than Kearney then.

 

[big ginger 8]

Well Kearney does the Halfpenny swirl better than Halfpenny see try vs Scarlets.

 

[Draggs]

Well Kearney does the Halfpenny swirl better than Halfpenny see try vs Scarlets.

Arsecelts=everything invalid.

 

[big ginger 8]

See Kearney vs everyone then.

 

[coonor]

I thought it was the Gilroy swirl.....

 

[big ginger 8]

I thought it was the Gilroy swirl.....

That was my plan a few posts down the line damn you.

 

[nickdnz]

Haha - when I was talking about the Foden, Kearny, Halfpenny mention of form - I actually wasn't considering the recent Lions debate. I was talking about the verious opinions and threads started since 2009 - the Lions debate meerly highlights this. Every 6 Nations there is the new best fullback in the world - based off that temporary form. With regards to Adam Jones - it's almost fair to say that in your opinion he is the best in the world - as he's consistently been somewhere around the top for the last 3-4 seasons. I personally wouldn't rate him as the best - but he's there or there abouts.

By the way - heard Carl Hayman has looked much better for Toulon this season?

 

[Peat]

To go back to the scrummage vs. everything debate on props - I wouldn't say it hasn't backfired incredibly amusingly at times, or that a lot of the guys getting the nod on everything aren't good scrummagers. My point was quite simply that it happens, and that it seems anachronistic to insist scrummaging is the be all and end all for a prop when so much of the professional rugby fraternity disagrees.

And, a lot of the time, they're right. Jenkins scrummaged perfectly well by any standard and you'd be insane to leave him out based on what he brought to the team and he deserved his Lions caps - and I think Healy, by now the odds-on favourite for the shirt, is in a similar position. People might quibble over the details but I don't see how anyone can disagree with the general principle. A prop is there for what he brings to the team as a whole - be that in the scrum, breakdown, carry, lineout, tactical kicking or whatever.

I'm refusing to get drawn into whether he's the world's best, but I would contest strongly any notion that Cole is more than a little overhyped (we all love our own and Sky are very excitable) as his contribution in general is top notch. And I've never found any shortage of non-English rugby fans who rate him either.

Nick - don't rate Woodcock that highly, he's obviously a very useful player but never a World's best imo, shades of Ben Kay to me if that makes sense. Owen Franks is a different beast though, it's noticeable that All Black scrum misses him when he's not there. Don't feel he's encouraged to make as much impact as he could, both in the scrum and in the loose.

As for Etzebeth and Launchbury, I rate them both very highly, but I won't say they're the best locks in the world. For their age they are brilliant and show signs of being the best in the world. To me the best lock in the world at the moment is Paul O'Connel.

Odd choice, considering he hasn't played in about forever and can no longer carry effectively. That's another thread though...

 

[TRF_heineken]

To go back to the scrummage vs. everything debate on props - I wouldn't say it hasn't backfired incredibly amusingly at times, or that a lot of the guys getting the nod on everything aren't good scrummagers. My point was quite simply that it happens, and that it seems anachronistic to insist scrummaging is the be all and end all for a prop when so much of the professional rugby fraternity disagrees.

And, a lot of the time, they're right. Jenkins scrummaged perfectly well by any standard and you'd be insane to leave him out based on what he brought to the team and he deserved his Lions caps - and I think Healy, by now the odds-on favourite for the shirt, is in a similar position. People might quibble over the details but I don't see how anyone can disagree with the general principle. A prop is there for what he brings to the team as a whole - be that in the scrum, breakdown, carry, lineout, tactical kicking or whatever.

I'm refusing to get drawn into whether he's the world's best, but I would contest strongly any notion that Cole is more than a little overhyped (we all love our own and Sky are very excitable) as his contribution in general is top notch. And I've never found any shortage of non-English rugby fans who rate him either.

Nick - don't rate Woodcock that highly, he's obviously a very useful player but never a World's best imo, shades of Ben Kay to me if that makes sense. Owen Franks is a different beast though, it's noticeable that All Black scrum misses him when he's not there. Don't feel he's encouraged to make as much impact as he could, both in the scrum and in the loose.

In that case what about Beast Mtawarira??

At times he has demolished packs at scrum time, take the first B&I Lions test in 2009 for example.

He's a good tackler, he clears a ruck pretty well, and has poached some balls for the Boks.

Then his ball carrying, there's not a lot of props that carry as much as the Beast does, and he has some pace too...

Yet, he hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread.

Odd choice, considering he hasn't played in about forever and can no longer carry effectively. That's another thread though...

Yeah well, I still rate him as the best lock, and since he hasn't retired yet, he still qualifies in book...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Os

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In that case what about Beast Mtawarira??

At times he has demolished packs at scrum time, take the first B&I Lions test in 2009 for example.

He's a good tackler, he clears a ruck pretty well, and has poached some balls for the Boks.

Then his ball carrying, there's not a lot of props that carry as much as the Beast does, and he has some pace too...

Yet, he hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread.

Presumably because he's a loosehead and this thread is talking about tightheads

Third test pretty much cancels out the first for Beast, for me. Beast absolutely ruined Vickery in the first test, but then in the third Vicks more than handled Beast. He didn't ruin him, but that he was on top at all was pretty crazy.

I like Beast, though, good player.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Presumably because he's a loosehead and this thread is talking about tightheads

Third test pretty much cancels out the first for Beast, for me. Beast absolutely ruined Vickery in the first test, but then in the third Vicks more than handled Beast. He didn't ruin him, but that he was on top at all was pretty crazy.

I like Beast, though, good player.

Oh Okay then, what about Coenie Oosthuizen? A monster of a man, good scrummager (as he showed vs England in June 2012). Great poacher, and an awesome runner with the ball.

Or does he not qualify as he doesn't play Heineken Cup?