Overhype of "world's best" Dan Cole

[Feicarsinn]

Says who?!?!

You want to fight me Feic?

 

[Draggs]

Jannie is a much better tighthead than he is given credit for. Played every match, club and country, that he was fit for last year.
Steenkamp was possibly the best loosehead in 2010.

Andrea is of course the very best...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Funny how people just ignore the Super Rugby props - until they own up in the NH (excluding Australian's).



As Cooner may be referring to (and something I know about) - I'd penalize Cole there. If you look at his hand he isn't binding onto his jersey - but rather his arm. What he's doing is twisting his arm inwards which essentially puts the other prop off balance and unable to generate power. Oldest trick in the book - but not at all legal.

The first SH person that commented on this thread and the last comment on the first page. That really sums up how much of a nothing thread this is.

 

[coonor]

Funny how people just ignore the Super Rugby props - until they own up in the NH (excluding Australian's).



As Cooner may be referring to (and something I know about) - I'd penalize Cole there. If you look at his hand he isn't binding onto his jersey - but rather his arm. What he's doing is twisting his arm inwards which essentially puts the other prop off balance and unable to generate power. Oldest trick in the book - but not at all legal.

Yeah I completely agree. The short arm bind is the biggest issue in scrum. No matter how big or strong you are, if you twist the looseheads arm there's no chance of him getting any shove on.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Exactly. Some are making it seem as if I think Cole is an utterly awful prop who wouldn't make the Cardiff Blues XV and shouldn't be on the Lions tour.



I wouldn't respond like normally and if Peat had actually tried to debate, rather than say "a really stupid opinion" for not thinking Cole is world's best, and also incorrectly say my motives are bias.

I do agree with you in some respects and maybe Cole is overrated, i think people take issue with the fact that it looks like an england wumming thread because there are literally DOZENS of players for all teams all over the world who are overrated and youve chosen one england player to case study. Why chose Cole I think is alot of people's question.

 

[Big Ewis]

You'd swear the forum is for debate or something <_<.

It's fairly strange how far off some ppl are when it comes to the greater picture, or the essence of a comment rather than its pedantic little technicalities.

I mean: GODDAMMN the wasteful patience of some on here to go point by point !! XD
Myyyyyyyyyyy, my...the time on their hands !! :lol:

I'm all for debate but...yikes !!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The Cole gif wasn't really supposed to be relevant, was just posting it for sh**s and giggles.

Like this one:

 

[Feicarsinn]

The Cole gif wasn't really supposed to be relevant, was just posting it for sh**s and giggles.

Like this one:

It's a thing of beauty all right. Except for the top left corner that is...

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

And how there are far more red-shirted supporters in that frame.

"we forgot that you were 'ere"

 

[HenryChinaski]

I think the problem isn't with people writing their opinions, as thats obvously fine and what this (awesome) forum is all about, but it's more annoying when people seem to only be arguing somethng because they've found a random piece of evidence that in some incidental way can be said to support it.

For example Duck, that point you made about Gill and Vunipola. Its fine if you genuinely believe Gill is a much better player, there's no right or wrong answer there, but I got the feeling you only suggested it because of the fact that Gill started that match and therefore the evidence could be used in that way... I'm not entirely convinced you even believed what you were saying when arguing that Gills selection showed the overhyping of English props and that the Welsh props are actually better, even the 4th choice ones.

The other thing is that any attempt to suggest that one specific nation is alone in hyping is players, is a wee bit silly. England have been guilty of it in the past, but ths current England set-up is just going about its business in a professional way(apart from the old farts who want to believe Farrell is the new Johnny). We all hype our players, as Draggs pointed out... and thats no bad thing! But it particularly didnt make sense as a point to argue when you bear in mind that Irish and Welsh players are hyped as much as English players.... which brings us back to the point of whether or not you really believe what your arguing, or whether its an argument for the hell of it. We all argue stuff for the hell of it sometimes, but when its a WUM dressed up as logic.... not so cool.

Just my view...

 

[Thingimubob]

And how there are far more red-shirted supporters in that frame.

"we forgot that you were 'ere"

Heh, the Welsh did kinda take over Dublin that weekend. Cracking weekend it was too! Kearney was bloody majestic under high ball that day, especially considering Halfpenny had a superb game too.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

TRF Thread of the Year ... right here!

 

[Maverick1987]

Lol @ this thread . I live in Wales and all I hear is people constantly hyping the welsh players . North is best , halfpenny I best , warburton is best . I don't say much cos everyone has their own opinion . I tend to have a higher opinion of Leicester/England players because that's who I support and I think most people are guilty of that . All I can say is I'm glad gatland is picking the team for the lions because I'm sure it won't be a easy as duck makes out to pick between Coles and jones . Just sayin ...........

 

[eot345]

Dan Cole is an impressive scrummager and hasn't let England down in that aspect against anyone. He's had a couple of great scrummaging performances on the international stage, the most notable being against Ireland last year. He's also had some good performances against good scrummagers domestically. When Gloucester visited Leicester and Nick Wood was starting for Gloucester, Gloucester had one of those games where every scrum turned into a penalty for Leicester. Dan Cole pretty much destroyed Nick Wood, who is a very good scrummager himself. Tigers have scored 8 penalty tries so far this year IIRC.

You have to remember that when playing for England, Dan Cole hasn't had a top loosehead to work with. Corbisiero was looking the part but got injured and no one talks about him as a potential Lion. Marler is getting better but still hardly known for his scrummaging. Vunipola looks the part, but he's 22 and still isn't a settled favourite for England. Adam Jones gets to work with Gethin Jenkins (very decent in the scrum) and Paul James (one of the best scrummaging looseheads around). He also made his name when Matthew Rees was obviously the best hooker in Europe, and is continuing into a time when Hibbard is probably the best hooker in Europe. I'd say Dan Cole would be up there amongst the best scrummagers in the game and that much will be obvious when England have sorted out the rest of the front row.

But it isn't his set piece that people talk about. It's the fact that he plays like a 7 in the contact at a time when 7s are the most popular players on the field. He makes a lot of turnovers, wins penalties and slows the opposition down. This is the facet of his game that people rate him as possibly the best tighthead in the world. Jenkins never had to be the best scrummager to be rated the best loosehead in the game when he was in his prime. Similar applies to Cole. Is Cole the best tighthead? It's definitely between him and Jones in the NH. I couldn't say for certain about the SH though.

This is to the letter exactly what I think. I would also like to add the whilst jones my be a very marginally better scrummager than cole (but no better than I expect Cole to be when he hits 32) cole's loose work is unparalleled by any prop with anythinglike his set piece ability in the NH (with the exception of tonga hui who is a however) I would also like to note that even the best scrummaging props have bad days, hell I can remember a season or two ago when the great nicholas mad was bullied by tongahui. And so I would urge people not to bass entire facets of their argument on isolated matches. Dan cold is the best tighthead in the NH IMO as whilst I agree jones is, and has been a fantastic player he does not contribute to the team as a whole to the same degree as Cole and certainly not for a full 80 minuets.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

This is to the letter exactly what I think. I would also like to add the whilst jones my be a very marginally better scrummager than cole (but no better than I expect Cole to be when he hits 32) cole's loose work is unparalleled by any prop with anythinglike his set piece ability in the NH (with the exception of tonga hui who is a however) I would also like to note that even the best scrummaging props have bad days, hell I can remember a season or two ago when the great nicholas mad was bullied by tongahui. And so I would urge people not to bass entire facets of their argument on isolated matches. Dan cold is the best tighthead in the NH IMO as whilst I agree jones is, and has been a fantastic player he does not contribute to the team as a whole to the same degree as Cole and certainly not for a full 80 minuets.

Pure utter myth.

Jones is not a natural 'jackler' as someone like Gethin Jenkins / Cian Healy, some players just aren't. It doesn't come natural to them. But this nonsense of Jones contributes nothing is pure and utter rubbish. When he started his career I would have agreed that he offered nothing more than scrummaging. However his tackling is second to none, he carries, his work in the tight, his cleaning up, he also leads from the frint ... just because he doesn't provide the turnovers doesn't mean he doesn't contribute like Cole's. He contributes in a different way which goes unnoticed but is equally as important.

Last time I checked ... you pick your props to scrummage, you select the best to do that. Anything after is a bonus.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Pure utter myth.

Jones is not a natural 'jackler' as someone like Gethin Jenkins / Cian Healy, some players just aren't. It doesn't come natural to them. But this nonsense of Jones contributes nothing is pure and utter rubbish. When he started his career I would have agreed that he offered nothing more than scrummaging. However his tackling is second to none, he carries, his work in the tight, his cleaning up, he also leads from the frint ... just because he doesn't provide the turnovers doesn't mean he doesn't contribute like Cole's. He contributes in a different way which goes unnoticed but is equally as important.

Last time I checked ... you pick your props to scrummage, you select the best to do that. Anything after is a bonus.

Pretty sure no one is saying that!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Pretty sure no one is saying that!

Well ...

I've read the thread. I've seen the rubbish that has been sprouted right, left and center. Oh ... and yes people in this thread are making you believe this is the case. Just felt the need to point out that Jones does contribute ... just in a different way to Cole's.

 

[dullonien]

Just felt the need to point out that Jones does contribute ... just in a different way to Cole's.

Yup, all 15 players can't be jacklers at the ruck, a team would completely fail to operate if they were. Whilst I do admire Cole's abilities in the loose, as I have done Gethin Jenkins' for many a year; Adam Jones' contributions should not be underestimated. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, and Cymro has pointed out above, Jones contributes a lot of necessary unseen/unglamorous work in and around the ruck. Both the Ospreys and Wales have a genuine jackler at 7, but for both Leicester and England Cole seems to be the player doing most of the jackling.

If the Lions decide to pick a genuine out and out openside, such as Warburton or Tipuric, then they may decide that Cole's jacking abilities aren't needed, and may in fact just get in the way. They may decide that having someone like Adam Jones to do the hard graft is a better option, especially if a dynamic prop is played on the loose, such as Cian Healey. The balance must be right.

 

[Peat]

Funny how people just ignore the Super Rugby props - until they own up in the NH (excluding Australian's).

A mix of bias and ignorance, nothing's going to happen if you don't open people's eyes.

That said, I genuinely don't think of the SH props are best in the world at the moment. Australia's props obviously aren't, although better than given credit for by some. I don't think the Kiwi props are all that, but that might be because NZ scrum to create platforms and not to milk penalties, which obviously doesn't stick in the mind. I think the South African props are somewhat raw in terms of technique and achieve mainly through power, and they are picked for power to perform in the loose. My limited viewing suggests there's better scrummagers not getting Bok caps, although I may well be wrong. And the Argie props are the wrong age.

The really hard done by group in this conversation are the French imo.

As Cooner may be referring to (and something I know about) - I'd penalize Cole there. If you look at his hand he isn't binding onto his jersey - but rather his arm. What he's doing is twisting his arm inwards which essentially puts the other prop off balance and unable to generate power. Oldest trick in the book - but not at all legal.

Out of curiousity, as a prop, how much emphasis do you put on legality when rating them? For me, I tend to go by a Law of the Jungle and say everything allowed by the ref is ok, and think that a huge part of being a successful prop is the ability to do unto others when it comes to cheating.

Last time I checked ... you pick your props to scrummage, you select the best to do that. Anything after is a bonus.

There's a fairly solid body of evidence suggesting this is no longer true for a great many coaches. I'd have personally said Gethin Jenkins starting ahead of Paul James was an example, I'd have James as the better scrummager, although I may be wrong. Still plenty of other examples abound, a great many in national teams to boot; I've already said I think the Saffas do it, the Irish certainly pick for loose ability first, the English propping hierarchy underrates a lot of our best scrummagers imo, whoever's in charge at Sale doesn't appear to care, the French surely have better scrummagers than Debaty... the list can go on for a long time, adequate/good at scrum time and outstanding elsewhere is now acceptable in modern rugby. Whether it should or not is a matter of opinion, and personally the greatest part of the debate over Jones and Cole that is not directly tied to nationality.

If the Lions decide to pick a genuine out and out openside, such as Warburton or Tipuric, then they may decide that Cole's jacking abilities aren't needed, and may in fact just get in the way. They may decide that having someone like Adam Jones to do the hard graft is a better option, especially if a dynamic prop is played on the loose, such as Cian Healey. The balance must be right.

Your first sentence doesn't make sense in light of Gatland's regular use of Jenkins along with a ball hog seven - it would be quite a reversal. I do like the pairing suggested in your second sentence though, and would agree with you and Cymro that talk of Jones' contribution in the loose can be understated. I don't think he offers as much as Cole, who is more than just a jackal, but Jones has been a vitally important cog for Wales.

 

[nickdnz]

A mix of bias and ignorance, nothing's going to happen if you don't open people's eyes.

That said, I genuinely don't think of the SH props are best in the world at the moment. Australia's props obviously aren't, although better than given credit for by some. I don't think the Kiwi props are all that, but that might be because NZ scrum to create platforms and not to milk penalties, which obviously doesn't stick in the mind. I think the South African props are somewhat raw in terms of technique and achieve mainly through power, and they are picked for power to perform in the loose. My limited viewing suggests there's better scrummagers not getting Bok caps, although I may well be wrong. And the Argie props are the wrong age.

The really hard done by group in this conversation are the French imo.

Out of curiousity, as a prop, how much emphasis do you put on legality when rating them? For me, I tend to go by a Law of the Jungle and say everything allowed by the ref is ok, and think that a huge part of being a successful prop is the ability to do unto others when it comes to cheating.

There's a fairly solid body of evidence suggesting this is no longer true for a great many coaches. I'd have personally said Gethin Jenkins starting ahead of Paul James was an example, I'd have James as the better scrummager, although I may be wrong. Still plenty of other examples abound, a great many in national teams to boot; I've already said I think the Saffas do it, the Irish certainly pick for loose ability first, the English propping hierarchy underrates a lot of our best scrummagers imo, whoever's in charge at Sale doesn't appear to care, the French surely have better scrummagers than Debaty... the list can go on for a long time, adequate/good at scrum time and outstanding elsewhere is now acceptable in modern rugby. Whether it should or not is a matter of opinion, and personally the greatest part of the debate over Jones and Cole that is not directly tied to nationality.



Your first sentence doesn't make sense in light of Gatland's regular use of Jenkins along with a ball hog seven - it would be quite a reversal. I do like the pairing suggested in your second sentence though, and would agree with you and Cymro that talk of Jones' contribution in the loose can be understated. I don't think he offers as much as Cole, who is more than just a jackal, but Jones has been a vitally important cog for Wales.

I'd still rate Tony Woodcock and Owen Franks as two of the best props in the world. Steenkamp was magnificant in 2010 as some people mention - while the Beast was very good until his heart problem arose. All these guys could well be rated around the best - I'd take Owen Franks at TH over Adam Jones or Dan Cole (although they are quite similar - I just think Franks is more physical). The problem with the All Blacks scrum at the moment is that for a start we lost Brad Thorn and for another there seems to be a strange bias when viewing the games that the AB scrum isn't one of the best. It actually takes the players going over seas to be rated. No one seemed to rate big John Afoa before he went to Ulster - now some would argue he is the form prop in Europe if not at least Ireland.

To a certain point I'd agree on a rating system of 'law of the jungle' - I don't rate a openside on how well he does his job within the paramaters of the rules - but rather how effective he is at not getting caught breaking them, and the same thing goes with propping. I play prop and have a good idea how to often better bigger and stronger props based off having better technique and to an extent getting away with cheating. With that said - I don't think it's fair to use it as a comparrison like in Olyy's gif. There really wasn't too much the loose head could do other than rely on the ref to do his job - which I assume he didn't penalize Cole and thus failed.