Premiership Rugby chief calls for euro re-think

[TRF_Cymro]

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty has suggested that a flawed qualification system is largely to blame for English rugby's failure to make a significant impression on this season's Heineken Cup.

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/157976.html​

 

[Pierce Brosnan Rugby]

What a joke... bring ST Helens to the Aviva premiership that will do...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If English teams aren't competing strongly in Europe at present, do they merit an additional place? Surely the 8th ranked English team would be whipping boys in their group which would benefit te French and Pro 12 teams more!

McCafferty is taking a negotiating position which he knows has no chance of succeeding. The only way the English and French teams will get equal representation as the Pro 12 is if the Heineken Cup expanded the number of teams in it.

Something I find strange is that in the 2007 World Cup, it was widely said that England beat Australia due to their players being battle hardened in the Premiership where it's like cup rugby every week. Now they're losing in the Heineken Cup for precisely the same reason! Which is it?

Enlgish rugby will rise again but they have to look at themselves to get answers, not blame other leagues.

 

[Teh Mite]

What a joke... bring ST Helens to the Aviva premiership that will do...

Can't see the benefit there. Liverpool St. Helens are a lower-low league side with barely 50 players on the books. None of who are even semi-pro.

Oh, you mean Saints RL... ah, gotcha. I see what you did there...

 

[Saintjay]

If English teams aren't competing strongly in Europe at present, do they merit an additional place? Surely the 8th ranked English team would be whipping boys in their group which would benefit te French and Pro 12 teams more!

McCafferty is taking a negotiating position which he knows has no chance of succeeding. The only way the English and French teams will get equal representation as the Pro 12 is if the Heineken Cup expanded the number of teams in it.

Something I find strange is that in the 2007 World Cup, it was widely said that England beat Australia due to their players being battle hardened in the Premiership where it's like cup rugby every week. Now they're losing in the Heineken Cup for precisely the same reason! Which is it?

Enlgish rugby will rise again but they have to look at themselves to get answers, not blame other leagues.

Should teams that are 11th or 12th in there league merit a place. Or should it be the top teams that have fought for the right to be there by either league placement or winning over cups etc.

If the 8th placed English team are going to be whipping boys surely that is no different from 10,11,12 placed Pro12 teams.

 

[oldscumbagonian]

Looking at the three feeder leagues' performances in the Pool matches this season you will see that PRO12 is well ahead. A quick calculation shows that PRO12 teams picked up 165 points from 66 matches, an average of 2.5 per game. It looks even better if you omit the two Italian sides as the average then goes to 2.93 points. The Premiership average was 2.24 and the Top 14 was 2.28. Whilst I'm not sure that the suggestion of 8 teams from each of the three leagues is the answer (and it's not likely to happen) the fact that English and French clubs cannot afford to rest their top players (as the PRO12 teams can) in order to stay in contention for qualification does make for an unbalanced process.

I suspect that if no action to get some better balance is taken in the next couple of years the English and French might withdraw from the competition and set up an Anglo/French competition - or even join up with SH club sides for some sort of global competition.

I think I'm right in saying that there is only one side (Newport Dragons) in the Amlin, a competition which, as another thread points out, means lesser Italian teams getting thrashed week in week out. More input to the Amlin from PRO12 might help.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The 11th placed Pro 12 team beat the Premiership leaders at the weekend.

I won't disagree, there are a lot of Pro 12 teams in the Heineken Cup but they're representing four nations, not one. A possible compromise is that Scotland and Italy are only guaranteed one place each and there's a playoff with an English and French team for the remaining Heineken Cup slots. For example, if Edinburgh finish below Glasgow in the league, they've a route into the Heineken Cup by playing off against the 8th best English or French team. Would the SRU or FIR agree to that though? Not likely in my view unless they get financial guarantees.

For European rugby to grow, we need representatives from all the 6 Nations in the Heineken Cup and from more 6 Nations B countries in the Amlin Cup. A system which could result in no Italian or Scottish teams in the Heineken Cup is flawed.

 

[big ginger 8]

If English teams aren't competing strongly in Europe at present, do they merit an additional place? Surely the 8th ranked English team would be whipping boys in their group which would benefit te French and Pro 12 teams more!

McCafferty is taking a negotiating position which he knows has no chance of succeeding. The only way the English and French teams will get equal representation as the Pro 12 is if the Heineken Cup expanded the number of teams in it.

Something I find strange is that in the 2007 World Cup, it was widely said that England beat Australia due to their players being battle hardened in the Premiership where it's like cup rugby every week. Now they're losing in the Heineken Cup for precisely the same reason! Which is it?

Enlgish rugby will rise again but they have to look at themselves to get answers, not blame other leagues.

The independent had an article saying something similar. Bit of a mouthful don't agree with everything in it btw.



Provinces toast of continent thanks to obsession with improvement, says Brendan Fanning

In a unique season where Ireland had four teams dining at the top table in Europe, yesterday started with confirmation of another new departure: three teams into the knockout stages before they had played their final pool games, and at close of business two of them had occupied first and second in the seedings. As for the fourth, Connacht added to their encouraging form away from home with a win at the Sportsground. When this kind of sequence unfolds then outsiders look at our system as if it was the Silicon Valley of rugby.


It's worth remembering that when English clubs were dominating the Heineken Cup, winning five of the first eight ***les after the turn of the century, we were told it was because their players were so battle-hardened from their week-to-week combat in the Premiership. And that Celtic rugby was a choreographed tea party that couldn't produce winners.


Then, when our sides took over, with four of the last six ***les, England especially moaned about the advantages afforded those who attended the tea party. Look at all the time off; the absence of relegation; the fast lane into the Heineken Cup every year when English and French clubs are scratching each other's eyes out at the top and bottom of the table.


The tone changed last week, form moaning about Celtic rugby -- well, Irish rugby -- to navel gazing the English game. It was prompted by the poor showing of their teams in the Heineken Cup and will be accelerated by the dismantling of Saints in the second half at Milton Keynes last night.


Two nights previously, Sale were comfortably outplayed at home in the Amlin by Brive. The panel discussion that followed that one made Ireland out to be the happiest, clappiest rugby nation on earth. Clearly they don't watch too closely the way the IRFU does its business. Nevertheless, there is positive stuff going on in all four bases in Ireland, and the first season with all four provinces on board has already washed its face.


Leinster's obsession with improvement has led the class. They are credited as being the most creative force on the circuit just now, and maybe they are. If so, however, it's not in the way you think. Joe Schmidt first applies himself to ways of improving the basics, so you could classify that as creative if unexciting. And some of us admit to getting excited about adjustments in technique that have a real impact on the way a team plays.


Look at the way they clean out at the tackle, for example, often managing to get good, quick ball with only two men on the job. Rewind when a blue shirt takes the ball into contact and see if at the last moment he adjusts his footwork to put the tackler off balance. That facilitates ball retention -- check out the quality of the delivery of ball in the tackle -- and then the last piece in the jigsaw is the quality of the pass.


Well hardly the last, but if you can consistently get real quality into the sequence of carry, present, clean and pass, then the guts of your work in attack is done. What happens next is what sets Leinster apart though -- their ability to play what's in front of them.


This is one of the most abused concepts in rugby, the notion than you can make it up as you go. What is achievable, however, is to bring two plans to every meeting and depending on who turns up, you implement the one that suits.


That's what governed Luke Fitzgerald's try to open the second half against Bath before Christmas, and it was the same for Rob Kearney's first-half score from 50 metres in the RDS yesterday. Both were governed by how the opposition defended. This is what it means to play what's in front of you.


Putting it all together demands high-quality passing to get the ball into the right spot. When Schmidt arrived in Dublin in 2010 he told his new players that he wanted them to be the best passing side in Europe. Passing 'for' a player rather than 'at' him remains one of the least performed skills in rugby. Schmidt will have seen enough sloppiness in their last 20 minutes yesterday to reinforce the message tomorrow.


Leinster are ahead of Munster and Ulster in all the key areas, from depth of squad to quality of play, but Munster's performance under intense pressure was special. It's hard to calculate what this will do for them mentally. Simon Zebo's fantastic finishing was the gloss on a job that had started with stripping the Saints bare. You looked at the Northampton coaches making their way out of the stand at the finish and wondered what on earth they could say to their players.


Physically they had milled Munster at the scrum; and mentally Munster had bullied them everywhere else. The story was best illustrated by two flankers: Munster's Peter O'Mahony and Saints' Calum Clark. One played with an edge that makes him a real asset; the other played so far over the edge as to be a liability.


Like Munster, Brian McLaughlin's side in Clermont had their scrummaging issues but couldn't quite compensate despite their second full-frontal performance in succession. And they were extremely hard done-by in the circumstances leading to the winning try. How Nathan Hines was allowed to remain on the field -- where he played a critical part in the score by replacement Ti'i Paulo -- was a mystery. He managed to illegally impede not one player, but two. At the same time. For a long time.


As Munster discovered back in 2003 when they were being beaten in Toulouse, you need a bench when you're going to the big clubs in France. Clermont had one and Ulster didn't. It will unhinge them again whether they go to Limerick or Dublin in the quarters. In one city they will face a team making a remarkable job of their transition and in the other, a team close to the top of their game. All three are making this a season to remember.

 

[racingmetrofan]

tbh Englands failure in the Heinekin this season was due to English teams playing poorly and nothing else. Really there was no reason other than poor team selection and poor performance that Saints lost their first 3 pool games, definitely no reason other than players playing badly that Harlequins lost to Connaught, and Leicester were hampered by injuries. Salary cap might be an issue here for Leicester, but as the 12trees saga shows most English players don't want to play second fiddle, and the only way they could get a good backup to FLood is to poach someone from the Southern Hemisphere.

I do feel a bit bitter about the Harlequins/Connaught thing though, it seems silly that a team with no chance of quarter final qualification just hangs around hoping for the 1 in 15 game performance that wrecks a real contenders hopes, purely in the competition on the merit that another team from the same nation won it last year.

 

[lucky number 7]

Yep..that's why English teams aren't winning in europe....nothing to do with not playing particularly well or just an off year?

 

[Saintjay]

The 11th placed Pro 12 team beat the Premiership leaders at the weekend.

I won't disagree, there are a lot of Pro 12 teams in the Heineken Cup but they're representing four nations, not one. A possible compromise is that Scotland and Italy are only guaranteed one place each and there's a playoff with an English and French team for the remaining Heineken Cup slots. For example, if Edinburgh finish below Glasgow in the league, they've a route into the Heineken Cup by playing off against the 8th best English or French team. Would the SRU or FIR agree to that though? Not likely in my view unless they get financial guarantees.

For European rugby to grow, we need representatives from all the 6 Nations in the Heineken Cup and from more 6 Nations B countries in the Amlin Cup. A system which could result in no Italian or Scottish teams in the Heineken Cup is flawed.

It is a tough question and none of the pro12 teams or unions would agree to losing places in the tournament.

Don't get me wrong I fully accept that over the last few years English teams have not been good enough. That is for many reasons I do feel they struggle for balance between wanting to win the Prem or at least staying in it and the H/Cup.

Knowing your not going to be relegated in the league and qualifiy every year is a hugh bonus not afforded to the French and English teams.

I just feel that a top eight from each league seems fare. Is allowing a team into a tournament to get thumped over six games not also a flawed system. Just because they are from a different country and for the good of the game. Surely a competition where you have to fight to be in it would also improve teams and give them focus.

A similar arguement could be put for say allowing Scotland into every football world cup because it is the main sport in the country. Well supported and be a hugh improvement for the good of the game in Scotland.

 

[Peat]

The top eight from each league is fair.

However, guaranteed representation for all of Europe's tier 1 nations is also free, and also comes with financial awards and helps maintain a competitive atmosphere.

Frankly, this topic has very little to do with our poor performance. There are a number of reasons why English clubs are not doing very well in Europe but this isn't particularly one of them. Whining for more representation when we just got the shat beat out of us is bad timing, and makes us look like a bunch of tools tbh. I wish he'd shut up.

 

[djames6]

The 5th and 6th AP teams really struggled so why argue for the 7th and 8th to be there. I have always advocated a reduction to 5 pools, with 6 each from the AP and Top14 and 8 from the Pro12. The eight having a minimum of 2 from Ireland and Wales, with at least 1 from Scotland and Italy, all dependent on league position. Its fairer because 3 of the runner's up get a QF spot which is not that easily earnt without the likes of Aironi, Connacht or Dragons in a pool.

 

[j'nuh]

He does have a point but tbh, I prefer our current system.

The Top14/Premiership often has teams battling it out until the end of the season for a top 4/top6 spot. I wouldn't trade this end-of-season tension for an extra 2 teams in the Heineken cup.

BTW, it's not all doom and gloom. Harlequins and Glos drew Toulouse ridiculously close. Glos came a few minutes away from winning away against Toulouse and Harlequins should have beaten Connacht - either result would have seen an English team through. Plus, I think both Harlequins and Glos are a few signings away from being competitive in Europe. Leicester had an off-season and still won 4 games in their pool (as many as Ulster and Clermont), going out on bonus points. Bath were never getting through with Leinster in their group. Northampton are capable of more than they showed.

 

[Pierce Brosnan Rugby]

The Aviva Premiership needs Warrington Wolves and St Helens RL to join The league.... JASON ROBINSON Started his career in St Helens Remember? ...So lets do it

 

[McTallshort]

The 11th placed Pro 12 team beat the Premiership leaders at the weekend.

I won't disagree, there are a lot of Pro 12 teams in the Heineken Cup but they're representing four nations, not one. A possible compromise is that Scotland and Italy are only guaranteed one place each and there's a playoff with an English and French team for the remaining Heineken Cup slots. For example, if Edinburgh finish below Glasgow in the league, they've a route into the Heineken Cup by playing off against the 8th best English or French team. Would the SRU or FIR agree to that though? Not likely in my view unless they get financial guarantees.

For European rugby to grow, we need representatives from all the 6 Nations in the Heineken Cup and from more 6 Nations B countries in the Amlin Cup. A system which could result in no Italian or Scottish teams in the Heineken Cup is flawed.

Thats it for me, rugby needs to grow not contract an 8 teams per league competition would not stop Leinster or Munster winning it, its up to the French and English teams to up their game to stop that but it would mean rugby in Italy, Scotland and possibly even south wales could stagnate which would not help the growth of the game at all. If the Premiership clubs want to do better in the HC they need to try harder.

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/157976.html
​

Of course, they have overlooked a far more obvious reason for Premiership Clubs' failure to make an impression.... they haven't been good enough!!

 

[Melhor Time]

The Aviva Premiership needs Warrington Wolves and St Helens RL to join The league.... JASON ROBINSON Started his career in St Helens Remember? ...So lets do it

Interesting...

The Aviva Premiershp certainly needs northern teams. Leeds are not looking like returning next season and Newcastle won´t be around any longer. They seem clueless, happy folk to have four strong London teams with Leicester and Northampton having strong sides and others making up the numbers not being what they once were. With Twickenham and Wembely being success stories of the Aviva Premiership while nothing is done in the north and soon Sale will be the most northern team!

 

[Peat]

Interesting...

The Aviva Premiershp certainly needs northern teams. Leeds are not looking like returning next season and Newcastle won´t be around any longer. They seem clueless, happy folk to have four strong London teams with Leicester and Northampton having strong sides and others making up the numbers not being what they once were. With Twickenham and Wembely being success stories of the Aviva Premiership while nothing is done in the north and soon Sale will be the most northern team!

Need is a strong word.

Right now, there is no strategic plan, it is simply a matter of competititive success. The North have not done so well.

Also, Wasps are very far from succesful right now and not a bad bet to b e next down.

 

[racingmetrofan]

Interesting...

The Aviva Premiershp certainly needs northern teams. Leeds are not looking like returning next season and Newcastle won´t be around any longer. They seem clueless, happy folk to have four strong London teams with Leicester and Northampton having strong sides and others making up the numbers not being what they once were. With Twickenham and Wembely being success stories of the Aviva Premiership while nothing is done in the north and soon Sale will be the most northern team!

Problem is in the North the money and fan base is all with rugby league!