Rassie talks quota's

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by SomeOke, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. AM_Bokke

    AM_Bokke Academy Player

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    Or, you could give money directly to SARU for the development of the game of rugby in underprivleded communities. I am sure that they would take your money.

    Or, start your own NGO devoted to rugby in black communities in SA. I am sure that SARU would partner with you.

    Go ahead do it.
     
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  3. noah_jo

    noah_jo First XV

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    That's clearly not the point I am making... Racism is never justifiable not matter who it is against and saying "what are they supposed to do" is just a way of justifying racism...
     
  4. Steve-o

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    I have gone to great lengths to get the point across that private schools are very few and far between on the competitive rugby school scene, yet you say that Heineken are contradicting each other. We're not, he's talking about something else. You can't compare it to Scotland. 99% of Springboks come from the public school system. Only 8% of public schools have a sport program. THIS is the issue of the government needs to sort out, not SARU. But the ANC comrades are too using buying each other Mercs and houses to invest money where it should be. They don't care about rugby. Their hand is not being forced. They've got the very convenient apartheid card in their back pocket which they flash around when they're screwing up. They'd rather point fingers to get the attention off themselves and hold white people, as a group, responsible for their failures.

    I just have two questions for you:

    Do you share Ryan Vrede's "disgust" when he sees white players from public schools? (the video you shared)

    Do you support the a quota system which the ANC forces on SARU and World Rugby? The same ANC who's leaders chant "Shoot the Boer, Kill the Whites"
     
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  5. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    My biggest issue is the selective way the journo in the video, and some posters pick a point of view and stick to it. There is no "broadening of the horizon". It doesn't seem like proper research is being done, or that there is a digging for more conclusive articles.

    Just to get back to the whole schools festivals and what this journo said in the video. He and the rest of SA only see a small piece of the puzzle of the school festivals that happens every year over easter. We only see the matches where the top 20 rugby schools in the country feature, and they all go to the same festivals every year as they are being invited by the host school.

    But there are school festivals all over the country where the "lesser" schools are all attending. Let's use the example of Sportweni. A schools festival hosted in the town of Umtentweni in the South Coast of Kwazulu Natal, where schools are invited from different provinces to attend. there are like 20-40 schools at this festival, yet it doesn't even make the newspapers.
     
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  6. SomeOke

    SomeOke First XV

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    @Steve-o
    In the end perhaps most of our Springboks might come from public schools, but we both know not all public schools are created equal and ex-model C schools generally have school fees high enough that they may as well be private schools for all intents and purposes.

    My opinion is basically thus - I do think something needs to be done to get more black involvement in rugby in this country, ultimately in order for it to survive in the modern South Africa it needs to go this way.

    Unfortunately all the best solutions "effective" are grass roots solutions and require actual funding, something the government isn't willing to do, they don't actually care about rugby, but they do care about the political implications, meaning they want their constituents to think they are doing something to solve the problem Quota's represent a solution that requires no money and basically passes the buck to non-government.


    Anyway discussing the merits of quota's is pointless, we have them - end of story. We just need to cope with them as best we can, my point in the original thread is that I really don't think they are that impactful looking at the state of the game at the moment and the players we have.
     
  7. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    I hear you, and I agree with you, but some of these plans are just not that simple. There's a technical school here in town, that in the 70's and 80's was a rugby powerhouse. It's now completely black, and they hardly play any rugby. The one rugby field has now been made a soccer field. They went from having a full time rugby programme to it being an elective after school activity.

    But the school system in SA is a whole different animal. There are a lot more private schools popping up, and with the public school system being a bit in shambles at the moment (especially in Gauteng) who know what will happen.
     
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  8. unrated

    unrated First XV

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    Tom Naude?
     
  9. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    indeed
     
  10. Steve-o

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    You've hit the nail on multiple fronts. Yes indeed not all public schools are created equal. Same thing applies just about everywhere in the world. In Brisbane the sort after public schools are in the affluent areas, with people taking on bigger mortgages to offset the cost of private schools to get into the school.
    Yes schools like Grey Bloem have a funding model but it is very doable for a middle class family (around R25000 a year) as opposed to Michael House (around R300000 a year). Big difference is that Grey Bloem has a long list of Springboks whereas Michael House have like 3 or 4. But then again the public high school I went to in a small town in KZN charges fees too (R15000 a year) as I'm sure the vast majority would. Trust me I say small town, we didn't even have a cinema and the school is not viewed as prestigious in any way. As you know these fees are on a sliding scale with the people being able to afford paying and the people who can't afford it not having to pay. Not sure of the situation in this regard for the former model C's.

    However as you might know the former model C schools recruit heavily in their province and provide full scholarship to the best rugby players. For example I grew up 140 km north of Durban and had at least 5 or 6 of my team mates recruited to Glenwood in Durban over the years. There was never any doubt that they were good rugby players, black or white. Like one guy who scored 8 tries in one match, and he was an 8th man. He was whisked off to Glenwood by the end of the year on a full scholarship.

    Here is a sports gallery from the public school I went to https://ehs.org.za/sports/. Now please somebody (BMG?) show me the active discrimination against blacks that the ever principled ANC so desperately needs to intervene? The demographics look pretty much the same as it did when I was there more than a decade ago. The surrounding schools who they play against share pretty much the same demographics. There are two other high schools in the town but like Heineken points out they only play soccer.
    All of the schools in my area also played against a remote farm town, Pongola. Their team was predominantly white and those boer seuns (farm boys) beat everybody in the area consistently. You know, the kind of kids that Ryan Vrede reserves his "disgust" for.

    Now of course this is the kind of situation that the racist ANC and the supporters of their quota system (BMG for example) simply can't stand for! No, that Pongola team needs to be taken down a peg or two simply because they are white. Only blacks are allowed to be collectively good at something (basketball, Olympic sprinting) and if whites are collectively good at something some poor black person must be getting discriminated against. It's the only logical conclusion!

    I don't see the ANC comrades running rugby clinics for the the other two schools in my home town. They have all the power and resources to do so. Nobody is stopping anybody from doing anything. They don't care because rugby development was never the point anyway. Never was, never will be. The only systematic discrimination is coming from them.

    Now I do care about rugby in South Africa so if people support the policies of the organisation doing damage to the sport (the ANC) I will call them out on it. I do understand why some South Africans accept the reality of a rubbish situation. So I apologise for saying "No, just no" as I bolted out the gates. However as I've now spent time outside of that ANC engineered environment my contempt for it has increased tenfold. Firstly because of the hypocrisy of the situation and secondly for how the international rugby community are sitting on their hands.

    EDIT: I completely agree with you that SARU needs to be more proactive. Ticket pricing and TV broadcasting needs to be more accessible to more people. They have certain things in their control they can be doing better.
     
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  11. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Academy Player

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    Agree 100%, if something is racist it is racist. Replace requiring 45% black with 45% white and there would be uproar. The makeup of the Springboks has no more impact on the lives of disadvantaged South Africans that what I had for breakfast does. It is a diversion plain and simple. I do think World Rugby's attitude has been pathetic, they could put a stop to this tomorrow if they wanted.
     
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  12. unrated

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    Well said! I can relate to this very much.
     
  13. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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    Apologies for the very slow reply. I’d typed one up early in the week and found out that if your smartphone battery runs out before you submit a post, it doesn’t remember anything you’ve typed. I’ve only just mustered the enthusiasm to start from scratch.



    Regardless of any nuances in differences between private (fee paying) and state schools in South African and Scotland, I think we can agree that there will be a core number of schools that will have the strongest rugby programmes, and that overwhelmingly, if you are a pupil in one of these schools you stand a far, far stronger chance of getting the necessary specialist training required to ultimately become a Springbok. My school (slightly above average state school) also had a rugby team, but it was just coached by generic, jack-of-all-trade teachers, who had no apparent knowledge of the basics of the game in terms of rules, tactics, positional awareness or technique and certainly no background in the sport. You could have dropped Beauden Barrett into my school and I could almost guarantee you his talent would not have been identified and he’d never have become an international rugby player (XVs). The popular argument on internet forums is that in such circumstances Beauden Barrett wouldn’t “merit” becoming an international rugby player, whereas the reality would be that he’d been denied sufficient tools to compete with kids from other rugby programmes (e.g. with a specialist rugby coach).

    Sevens and football are very simple sports. Cream can rise to the top regardless of where it comes from and the quality of that training in school (e.g. Weah from Liberia or Salah (?) from Egypt in football, or the Kenyan & US 7s sides). On the other hand Cricket and XVs are heavily technical and without the necessary guidance I’d argue that the greatest of talents simply won’t have the opportunity to make the grade. The disparity between the Kenyan & US 7s and XVs is probably a simple example of this.

    “Disgusted” is not a word I’d use given my lack of knowledge about the schools in question. “Disappointed” and “concerned” are probably more my choice, particularly if these schools are the ones that produce the majority of Boks. It’s basically a sign that the Boks could be back at square one 35+ years after the end of apartheid.

    As I’ve said before, even when I believed the SA government and SARU that there weren’t quotas in effect (merely targets) I considered that quotas was better than doing nothing. A lot of these arguments can be found in the “catch-all” thread, so instead of regurgitating that I’ll throw something knew out there to explain my perspective.

    At RWC 2015, the Boks played an average of 3.5 players classified as black or coloured in their four games against Tier 1 opponents (4, 4, 3 & 3). Without quotas its reasonable to assume that would be a fairly similar figure of 3 or 4 non-white South Africans in the Bok 23 in the last year or two.

    Next month England will tour South Africa. A full strength England would definitely have 3 black home grown players in the 23 (Joseph, Watson & Itoje) and possibly a fourth (Sinckler). Heck, they might even be selecting a bi-sexual fly half (becoming the true “rainbow nation” of rugby! :p )

    The “black” population of England (i.e. black or mixed race partial black) is 3% of the population. The comparable figure in South Africa is about 85%.

    Wales (Charvis, Giles), Ireland (Zebo), Italy (Mbanda, Odiete) all manage to identify the occasional black player despite the tiny fraction of their populations that are black (far, far smaller than even the 3% of England) and intense competition with other sports.

    I personally found it weird watching such a white Boks side in 2015. I didn’t understand what I was seeing 20 years on from the advent of democracy. To me the only explanations are that:

    i) The schools system and the union (and to some extent the government) have not done enough to expose non-white kids to elite rugby training programmes. (my most likely explanation given my personal comparison with Scotland and how I think this is possible to recreate without ill intent)
    OR
    ii) Rugby culture in top schools and/or clubs is a bastion of some of the last vestiges of South African racism and the focus on white kids is intentional (I can’t comment on that, and consider it less likely than i). The sense I get from this forum is that almost all posters genuinely don’t give a fig about the colour of the player, as long as they outplay their opponent)

    Some of the counter arguments/explanations I’ve read here I don’t find remotely persuasive. For example:

    iii) black kids in SA prefer football (Italy and England are arguably the two of the biggest hotbeds of football in the world, yet they can find black kids to excel at XVs rugby).

    iv) black kids in SA don’t enjoy the physical contact of rugby that comes with XVs (why are black kids in SA different to black kids elsewhere in England or the US?)

    I’m all ears for any other explanation for why a country with 3% of its population being black can select the same number of black players (on merit) as a country where 85% of the population is black.

    I’m not looking to guilt trip South Africans and I accept there are sustained failings in the post reconciliation government and they have to shoulder some responsibility - they have been complacent and shown a lack of foresight, squandering the opportunity of governing the country for a solid 20+ years. But the Boks are perhaps the single biggest emblem of South Africa that it shows to the world. The RWC of 1995 was rightly celebrated globally as a sign of a new beginning. But when 20 years later you can’t even muster a handful of black players in your starting 23 it sends an unflattering message to the international rugby community and casts doubts on the progress of the Rainbow nation in becoming a coherent society.

    That is why I consider a measure as invasive as quotas being better than nothing after 20 years of what I consider to be failure. Life is bigger than rugby.

    Scotland (and Australia by the sounds of things) can mess up and only properly train kids from the same tiny incestuous network of schools and nobody bats an eyelid – just the occasional grump like myself who is passionate about social mobility and expanding the reach of the sport. The same level of incompetence in South Africa gets judged far more harshly because of the history of that country. That might not be fair, but it’s the way it is.

    I totally take on board that it can very well be the case that black individuals in positions of authority at schools and in government can also have taken decisions that have reduced the ability of black kids to get access to top tier training at school. Like I say, I blame general complacency and ineffectiveness across the board rather than anything underhand. Cultivating and maintaining XVs rugby takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears. That's why nobody steps up to become a new Tier 1 nation.

    In terms of that song you keep referencing, I don’t think it is appropriate to conflate that with transformation. The UK national anthem contains the line “rebellious Scots to crush” but I’m not going to denounce anyone in the government who sings it or denounce the policies of parties that sing it. It’s just an old song with an unfortunate line that was probably a bit dubious when it was written and hasn’t aged well. If this ANC song is from the apartheid era then I’d imagine something similar will apply. If it's a new song with a Macarena like dance craze then I will share you displeasure. :p
     
  14. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Academy Player

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    For all the circular discussions in this matter. Lets face it NOBODY is going to change their view. One fact remains, racial quotas are illegal under IOC and World Rugby Law. As well as UK employment law (applicable when the Cheetahs and Kings play in UK). As they have admitted being racist. South Africa should be suspended from IOC and world rugby. In IOC, World Rugby and English law there is no good racism or bad racism. There is just racism.

    I get why they don't, but as Gandhi said "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
     
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  15. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    And just when I thought we were getting somewhere, you write this nonsense.

    You are pointing fingers at the wrong people. Why go after the schools? They get a directive from the government and SA Rugby depending on the demographics of their pupils. A school in a majority white neighbourhood can't just magically pluck 50-odd black male pupils per age group out of thin air when there aren't any black families living in that area, same can be said about a school in Soweto where there are no white people living close by. What if the Government brings out a directive that all schools must have at least 2 white, 1 indian, 1 asian, 2 coloured pupils per every 5 black pupils, to even out the country's demographic scope? How?? A town like Middelburg in Mpumalanga that has a very good rugby school, that has absolutely no indian or asian neighbourhoods, how will they just get those kids?? Especially the schools without Hostels? do you expect these kids to hop on a taxi and drive at least 100-150 km per day just to get to school while his neighbour next door walks less than 1 km to his school. But because of the directive that one kid is too much for the school's limits so he has to go to another school that are not meeting their targets??

    I honestly feel like giving up arguing with you because of the crap you write. You keep on admitting you don't know enough, but still keep on writing essay after essay after essay.

    PS. you know that "Kill the Boer"-song is hate speech...
     
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  16. Steve-o

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    This has become a debate of attrition and not a debate based on facts and reality. Unfortunately Bruse_ma_goose you’ve shown time and time again shown that you are coming from a position of ignorance. I’m not using the word “ignorance” as an insult, We’re all ignorant on various topics. This is a topic you’re obviously interested in however my responses, and my fellow Saffas, have simply showing you where you are wrong. We have provided you with facts and personal accounts where we have LIVED through in this environment. Your rebuttal is simply “but in Scotland/UK” with another essay where you where you don’t really prove anything again. You shoot off stats but then we’re supposed to piece together why the stats don’t neatly fit into why they aren’t the they you think they should be? That doesn’t prove anything! If you support a quota system you need to prove why and how a system like this in beneficial.


    I just had a thought to myself “I’ve shown him that government public schools produce most Springboks, the black middle class is many times bigger than the white middle class, blacks have been getting benefits for decades in the way of quotas and affirmative action (confirmed by many people’s person accounts including mine) and nothing is stopping anybody from doing anything, I’ve shown the ANC don’t care about rugby and are using it for political purposes, the same ANC which is corrupt to its core and sings songs about killing white people, the journalist he seems as an authority (Ryan Vrede) on the topic has been shown to be a racist by viewing whites kids with disgust and after the Ashwin Willemse saga, and the BIG ONE he has no evidence that blacks are in fact being discriminated against in anyway. Why is he still supporting this?”


    I think I know the answer to this… If I was a black person and I presented you with the exact same information, would you still be debating with me? Would you still be telling me there needs to be quotas? Please have a think about this and answer this question.


    But then you say this, which is very confusing...



    So you’ve gone from saying quotas don’t existing, to the ANC are introducing quotas because they have no choice but to, to implicating the ANC in the general complacency and ineffectiveness across the board and that there is nothing underhand happening?


    How does quotas in anyway resolve your latest stance on the matter? There is a conflict here…

    EDIT: PS if you want to continue debating could I request that you ask more questions to make this more conversational style, if that is okay? I can't remember being asked a single question which you don't answer yourself in the next sentence. Of course this depends if debating is the point here? Or are we just stating our political and social views over and over in different ways with no goal? Correct me if I'm incorrect, but as I understand it debating is about getting closer to the truth?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  17. Steve-o

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    This is something the racial demographic "engineers" don't get. I remember it swinging the other way in a Northern KZN town, Jozini. The Police station there was continually understaffed because it required a white/indian/coloured person to fill one or two vacancies but nobody was willing to move there. It's a very rural part of KZN with pretty much a 100% black population, so there were black police officers willing to go there but they couldn't because they weren't the "right" colour. Very ironic and shows how stupid this all is.
     
  18. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    My mom has a business that assists the schools in our province, and while my hometown's high schools all have hostels, it's not being used properly like in the past. When I was in high school, all the kids in the hostel were from farms or rural areas, that was at least 50km out of town, and our school was the closest. Now because of this idea of districts and school jurisdiction, the hostels are no longer full. In fact some schools are even starting to remodel some parts of their hostels so that they can lease out rooms to people who are working class.

    But let's take this discussion further. When I was in high school, in my grade we were about 330 pupils. Of which about 50-60 were black/coloured students, mostly because there wasn't a high school nearer to where they lived, or it was full. Since then our small town became a major city, and 3 more schools have been built since then. One of them in the area/district where these black/coloured kids lived. This school is massive! it has room for up to 6000 pupils from grade 7 - 12. While my school couldn't hold more than 1500 pupils. Do the math. So what happened? less black/coloured kids came to my school, as they would rather go to the school nearer to home, where their friends and neighbours are as well. So my school had to make another plan, to get the kids in order to fill their sports teams with the minimum quota. They offered scholarships to kids that showed promise on the sport field. And all of them are there on merit, but the question is had it not been for the quota, those kids wouldn't have been in my school, and might not have played against the same type of opposition.

    I do agree with you @Steve-o . Why do we keep on bothering this discussion, when no matter what we say, it's being dismissed by an ignorant poster. Why are we not being asked questions, so that we can provide him with facts and information? Instead we are being provided with answers contradictory to the facts, but still the tirade is never-ending. It's enfuriating! What do we need to do to get through to him? I'm running out of ideas
     
  19. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Academy Player

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    Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty, and the pig likes it.
     
  20. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    I don't think there's a need to be name calling here...
     
  21. mdaclarke

    mdaclarke Academy Player

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    Sorry. Was a George Bernard Shaw quote. About the futility of things. Not meant as a personal insult. This is a circular discussion, nobody is going to change their minds and is an example of why I try not to talk about politics on a rugby forum. (If you want to see what happens when politics takes over go a look on another well known rugby forum) sadly in this matter politics and rugby are intertwined.
     
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