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Riki Flutey

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Mar 30 2009, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Mar 30 2009, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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I think Riki Flukey will be going. If he has a passport, then he is English and he's eligible. He is as English as Lesley Vainikolo, Matt Stevens and Simon Shaw, but that does not really matter.[/b]
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Thats another thing, the double standards here is both worrying and appaling. I mean, come on guys we've encouraged people like Dan Parks, Brent Cockbain, not to mention all of England's South African imports come to the UK to make a living. Why aren't we judging them like we seem to be judging the likes of Vainikolo and Flutey?

We're treading a very, very fine line here, gents.
[/b][/quote]

It's not double standards though these other players mentioned haven't qualified on residency grounds and are not proceeding to blatantly flout that by moving to another country, so there is quite a difference here. That said if he's good enough and he's qualified then he should tour, end of.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dundeesmiffy @ Mar 30 2009, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
We're too far into the professional era for this type of shenanigans, no more.[/b]
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You could say the same thing about the Lions as an institution.

The idea of a British Isles touring party is distinctly amateur.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Count of Devonshire @ Mar 30 2009, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The idea of a British Isles touring party is distinctly amateur.[/b]
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"Thats another thing, the double standards here is both worrying and appaling. I mean, come on guys we've encouraged people like Dan Parks, Brent Cockbain, not to mention all of England's South African imports come to the UK to make a living. Why aren't we judging them like we seem to be judging the likes of Vainikolo and Flutey?"




Parks and Cockbain are two very poor examples as Cockbain and Parks are second Generation Blood related.

I know Cockbains Parents are both Welsh and apparently according to an interview in the Sydney Herald i once read, Mr and Mrs Cockbain were not happy that Matt, the elder of their sons chose to Play for the Wallabies instead of for Wales.

Parks Grandfather was Scotish, under IRB and international immigration aw that means he is scottish should he choose to be. No matter what the accent.

A similar situation with Englands Josh Lewsey

Both his parents are Welsh, his two brothers both played rugby for Welsh youth teams. His father would not comment when the BBC asked him what he thought of his sons choice to play for England over Wales in the pre match BBC warm up to the 2005 match at the Millenium Stadium.

God knows pre Lee Byrne we could have done with Lewseys talents at full back.

It does seem though that there is a trend that successful regular top five ranking teams like New Zealand, Australia, England and France, flaunt the residency rules of Patriotic Qualification rather than the Blood line Qualification that many other sides choose.

The current exception in Wales being Horsman, who is English but chooses Wales over England as his Country of residency. His wife is Welsh, which under ancient Welsh law makes him Welsh too.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Count of Devonshire @ Mar 30 2009, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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The idea of a British Isles touring party is distinctly amateur.[/b]
Click to expand...
"Thats another thing, the double standards here is both worrying and appaling. I mean, come on guys we've encouraged people like Dan Parks, Brent Cockbain, not to mention all of England's South African imports come to the UK to make a living. Why aren't we judging them like we seem to be judging the likes of Vainikolo and Flutey?"




Parks and Cockbain are two very poor examples as Cockbain and Parks are second Generation Blood related.

I know Cockbains Parents are both Welsh and apparently according to an interview in the Sydney Herald i once read, Mr and Mrs Cockbain were not happy that Matt, the elder of their sons chose to Play for the Wallabies instead of for Wales.

Parks Grandfather was Scotish, under IRB and international immigration aw that means he is scottish should he choose to be. No matter what the accent.

A similar situation with Englands Josh Lewsey

Both his parents are Welsh, his two brothers both played rugby for Welsh youth teams. His father would not comment when the BBC asked him what he thought of his sons choice to play for England over Wales in the pre match BBC warm up to the 2005 match at the Millenium Stadium.

God knows pre Lee Byrne we could have done with Lewseys talents at full back.

It does seem though that there is a trend that successful regular top five ranking teams like New Zealand, Australia, England and France, flaunt the residency rules of Patriotic Qualification rather than the Blood line Qualification that many other sides choose.

The current exception in Wales being Horsman, who is English but chooses Wales over England as his Country of residency. His wife is Welsh, which under ancient Welsh law makes him Welsh too.
[/b][/quote]

:huh: What are you talking about ? There's no choosing of rule or anything. You can qualify through residency (3 years) if you haven't played in any national side (7's included) although age grade doesn't count.
Then you can also qualify through ancestry (1 grand-parent).
 
My beef is that Flutey's origins are obviously not British. He didn't grow up with the history of the Lions, or begin his professional rugby career with the promise of one day representing this old institution. It's not just that he's 'English', I'd similarly have a problem if say Sonny Parker was in the same position.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Mar 30 2009, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
:huh: What are you talking about ?[/b]
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i am pointing out that some sides have more players selected on "at least one Grandparent rule" than others who have players not born in that specific country selected using "the three years residency rule"

the examples of the countries that exploit the 3 YEARS RESIDENCY RULE the most are

NEW ZEALAND

AUSTRALIA

ENGLAND

JAPAN

ITALY

FRANCE


if the RULES were changed to say that you were only qualified to play for a country if that is the country of one of YOUR PARENTS birth, then it would simplify the IRB LAWS on qualification, and hopefully strengthen the international games weaker and less well funded teams.

quite a simple point sorry i confused you !!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Mar 30 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Count of Devonshire @ Mar 30 2009, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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The idea of a British Isles touring party is distinctly amateur.[/b]
Click to expand...
"Thats another thing, the double standards here is both worrying and appaling. I mean, come on guys we've encouraged people like Dan Parks, Brent Cockbain, not to mention all of England's South African imports come to the UK to make a living. Why aren't we judging them like we seem to be judging the likes of Vainikolo and Flutey?"




Parks and Cockbain are two very poor examples as Cockbain and Parks are second Generation Blood related.

I know Cockbains Parents are both Welsh and apparently according to an interview in the Sydney Herald i once read, Mr and Mrs Cockbain were not happy that Matt, the elder of their sons chose to Play for the Wallabies instead of for Wales.

Parks Grandfather was Scotish, under IRB and international immigration aw that means he is scottish should he choose to be. No matter what the accent.

A similar situation with Englands Josh Lewsey

Both his parents are Welsh, his two brothers both played rugby for Welsh youth teams. His father would not comment when the BBC asked him what he thought of his sons choice to play for England over Wales in the pre match BBC warm up to the 2005 match at the Millenium Stadium.

God knows pre Lee Byrne we could have done with Lewseys talents at full back.

It does seem though that there is a trend that successful regular top five ranking teams like New Zealand, Australia, England and France, flaunt the residency rules of Patriotic Qualification rather than the Blood line Qualification that many other sides choose.

The current exception in Wales being Horsman, who is English but chooses Wales over England as his Country of residency. His wife is Welsh, which under ancient Welsh law makes him Welsh too.
[/b][/quote]

:huh: What are you talking about ? There's no choosing of rule or anything. You can qualify through residency (3 years) if you haven't played in any national side (7's included) although age grade doesn't count.
Then you can also qualify through ancestry (1 grand-parent).
[/b][/quote]

Mate just don't go there :lol: hes over exaggerating things!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 30 2009, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Mar 30 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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:huh: What are you talking about ? There's no choosing of rule or anything. You can qualify through residency (3 years) if you haven't played in any national side (7's included) although age grade doesn't count.
Then you can also qualify through ancestry (1 grand-parent).[/b]
Click to expand...
Mate just don't go there :lol: hes over exaggerating things!
[/b][/quote]

is "Charles" a bit simple ?
 
I think the 3 years residency rule is rubbish and shouldn't exist.

Taking on a make believe nationality based on where you've lived for the last three years just screams self profit, it does not begin to indicate what rugby players should have in abundance, that is, the passion and will to represent their country through thick and thin and for better or worse.

You should be eligible for the country where you were born, or the country where your parents were born.

Still think Flutey will tour though.


Mod Cymro: Language will not be tolerated on this forum
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bumbadum @ Mar 30 2009, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I think the 3 years residency rule is rubbish and shouldn't exist
You should be eligible for the country where you were born, or the country where your parents were born.[/b]
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glad to see another pundit agrees...!
 
Personally I would never consider representing someone that wasn't Wales. I can't get my head around that mentality.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bumbadum @ Mar 30 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I think the 3 years residency rule is horseshit and shouldn't exist.

Taking on a make believe nationality based on where you've lived for the last three years just screams self profit, it does not begin to indicate what rugby players should have in abundance, that is, the passion and will to represent their country through thick and thin and for better or worse.

You should be eligible for the country where you were born, or the country where your parents were born.

Still think Flutey will tour though.[/b]
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Mate tone your langauge down!

This is a family forum!
 
Sorry, but there's a very real reason why there's a residency law. This isn't just for sport, but for everyday life! For example, my g/f who was born in Southend to English and Belgian perants moved to Wales when she was 3. Wales is all she knows, she speaks fluent Welsh, supports Wales in sport (though she's not overly interested in sport) and more importantly considers herself Welsh! How can somebody turn around and tell her she isn't, no-ones got the right to do that.

I know it's slightly different when it's just been three years, and I agree with Cyril that I could never represent or consider myself anything other than Welsh no matter if I moved abroad and never returned, but some people do.

Also, in alot of ways, someone who's been living in a country for three years, has more understanding than somone with a Welsh/English/NZ grand-parent!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 30 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Mar 30 2009, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Mar 30 2009, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Click to expand...
I think Riki Flukey will be going. If he has a passport, then he is English and he's eligible. He is as English as Lesley Vainikolo, Matt Stevens and Simon Shaw, but that does not really matter.[/b]
Click to expand...

Thats another thing, the double standards here is both worrying and appaling. I mean, come on guys we've encouraged people like Dan Parks, Brent Cockbain, not to mention all of England's South African imports come to the UK to make a living. Why aren't we judging them like we seem to be judging the likes of Vainikolo and Flutey?

We're treading a very, very fine line here, gents.
[/b][/quote]

It's not double standards though these other players mentioned haven't qualified on residency grounds and are not proceeding to blatantly flout that by moving to another country, so there is quite a difference here. That said if he's good enough and he's qualified then he should tour, end of.
[/b][/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 30 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
It's not double standards though these other players mentioned haven't qualified on residency grounds and are not proceeding to blatantly flout that by moving to another country, so there is quite a difference here. That said if he's good enough and he's qualified then he should tour, end of.[/b]
Click to expand...

They were all born overseas though, Brent Cockbain even played in his native Australia before deciding to come to the UK and even signed for London Irish before coming to Wales so Flutey isn't the only new citizen to buzz from one nation to the next.

My point was more about why players like Vainikolo and Flutey split people down the middle while guys like Matt Stevens, Dan Parks and Mike Catt for example sail through under the radar without a by-your-leave.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Mar 30 2009, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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blah blah blah ergo blah blah and a bit more blah[/b]
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thanks for your moronic rant...

it was not worth the time you spent on it...!
[/b][/quote]

Hey Gimley, less trolling, more talking.

You don't agree with my post, why not tell us why instead of making a poor reputation for yourself?
 
This furore around residency has links to the wider immigration debate.

Now, I think it is perfectly fair that someone can come to another country, and after spending a fair amount of time there, be granted citizenship. This is completely normal, and anyone who dsiputes this will have questions to answer about quite how they'd define nationality, which as Prestwick said could have them walking on eggshells.

However, I do think that residency should be for 5 years, not 3, because that length of time shows a considerable commitment to the country.

Having said that; the rules are as they are, and it's f*** to do with the Lions whether Flutey has been here long enough or not. If he's good enough they pick him. Simple.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Mar 30 2009, 10:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Hey Gimley, less trolling, more talking.

You don't agree with my post, why not tell us why instead of making a poor reputation for yourself?[/b]
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No trolling there mate

Post #24
Post #27

Prestwick, less accusations and a little more reading...!!! would want me to think ill of you neither would you ? ? ?
 
Er, you trolled both me and Charles. #21 & 31 specifically if you want to be pedantic. Slightly ironic that you're telling me to read when you seem to fail to read even your own stuff.

Again, if you don't agree with my view then why not tell the forum why instead of trolling?

EDIT: Don't make me sic Steve-o on you! He's a man-eater, rawr!
 

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