Rugby 2012 - Teams & Competitions

[TRF C A Iversen]

why the bloody hell was my post deleted? it wasnt insulting, it was just some figures and im sure alot of people would have been surprised about them. and it was just as on topic as the other people.

Read your PM. Discuss it there or face some cool off time.

 

[nickdnz]

I have been absolutely shocked at how little understanding there is of the level of competition and skill there is in the NPC and Currie Cups. That list you have is really a small sample of the players who've gone from NPC level to the major European teams over the years.

I think the thing that winds me up the most is that nobody from the Southern Hemisphere is saying that if new comps were added that the Magners League, Celtic League and Top 14 shouldn't be considered or anything like that.

We're merely saying that when HB look at Southern Hemisphere comps, look at ours. What on earth is wrong with that.

Our competitions are broadcast internationally and have history and prestige, which last time I looked are major qualities in the world of rugby.

To me it's been very insulting and a one way exercise in being unfair too.

Yeah, good call Inversen. However I don't think that is going to change people's views. Except from many of the less bias NH members, there seems to be a belief that their competitions, teams and players should allways take priority of SH's. It's not exactly a new thing on this forum. As it is I can't see HB paying out a fortune on that many team licences anyway and i think we'll have many of the old teams selected. I'd like to see a Japan pro League though as it is getting some big names and would help develop the game.

 

[Bokbe4k]

Hahaha fair play you have just backed yourself into a corner.

1. Why have I been called ignorant?
2. My opinion is NOT ignorant its an opinion, the fact that you don't like it is all well and good but its not an ignorant post.
3. Have a bit of respect before having a small dig at me.
4. Just going over what's been posted previously people want all kinds of teams but if you go and put in something like Currie Cup etc then im afraid you have to include the B&I Cup and then include the teams from Div 1 England ... blah blah blah etc. I think having Super 15, Magners League / Guniess Prem / HEC + Top 14 (Despite not being fussed on Top 14, maybe similar team slection to those in previous Rugby games) and S15 is just enough. People are expecting way to much from HB Studio and need to think realistic.
5. What has the results from a previous Lions Tour got to do with what teams go in the game? Your argument has no base when you put something that has to relevance to the argument!
6. Sorry nearly winning is here nor there ... a win is a win no matter how you can justify it.
7. I can't really understand how the Lions were added into this debate when frankly they have nothing to do with adding Currie Cup, NPC, BI Cup etc
8. I can carry on picking through your post but I can't really be bothered to waste my time anymore on you!

A guy calls you one word, "ignorant" and you have to wright an essay to justify why you are not?hmm? and as far as your"Nearly winning" comment goes,thats exactly what we said about the B&I lions last year and NZders before that and the aussies before that!

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Yeah, good call Inversen. However I don't think that is going to change people's views. Except from many of the less bias NH members, there seems to be a belief that their competitions, teams and players should allways take priority of SH's. It's not exactly a new thing on this forum. As it is I can't see HB paying out a fortune on that many team licences anyway and i think we'll have many of the old teams selected. I'd like to see a Japan pro League though as it is getting some big names and would help develop the game.

I'm not against the Japan Pro League. I think it'd be pretty exciting and dynamic to have something new like that. I just feel that the Northern Hemisphere guys should be focusing on what they'd like to have added, not stating what they'd like to deny us, due to their "superiority" (apparently).

I mean honestly, no-one is trying to deny them anything. I believe this thread should be about promoting what you'd like to go in. Rather than shooting down others valid ideas to greedily promote an imbalance between the competitions from each hemisphere.

 

[Bokbe4k]

I'm not against the Japan Pro League. I think it'd be pretty exciting and dynamic to have something new like that. I just feel that the Northern Hemisphere guys should be focusing on what they'd like to have added, not stating what they'd like to deny us, due to their "superiority" (apparently).

I mean honestly, no-one is trying to deny them anything. I believe this thread should be about promoting what you'd like to go in. Rather than shooting down others valid ideas to greedily promote an imbalance between the competitions from each hemisphere.

Very diplomatic but well said!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This whole thread:

Why is everyone having such a fit that Cymro said that ANZ/Currie cup are not the top tier competitions in the SH? They aren't, and the super 15 is. It doesn't matter if, in reality, they have a better standard of rugby, the Super 15 is the bigger competition.


Also, the ignorance of European rugby shown in the thread far outweighs any supposed ignorance of the SH comps (which i fail to see - Cymro basically said: "The Springboks and USA Eagles are both national rugby union teams" - then people were harping on about how one is vastly superior and how dare he compare the two).

barely anyone in Europe knows about the Guinness Premiership teams

Pull the other one, mate.

 

[nickdnz]

This whole thread:

Why is everyone having such a fit that Cymro said that ANZ/Currie cup are not the top tier competitions in the SH? They aren't, and the super 15 is. It doesn't matter if, in reality, they have a better standard of rugby, the Super 15 is the bigger competition.


Also, the ignorance of European rugby shown in the thread far outweighs any supposed ignorance of the SH comps (which i fail to see - Cymro basically said: "The Springboks and USA Eagles are both national rugby union teams" - then people were harping on about how one is vastly superior and how dare he compare the two).

Pull the other one, mate.

You're right, ANZ and Currie Cup isn't the top competition in the South Hemisphare. Which is why the Heineken Cup (being the top competition in the NH) should be the only competition from the NH in the game. Good bye Magner League, Guiness Premiership, Top 14 etc.

 

[ranger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4xhsQncUY4

This is a video of a Australian news network covering an NPC game that featured the likes of Tana Umaga,Isa Nacewa, Conrad Smith, Jimmy Gopperth, Sam Tuitupou, Corey Jane, Chris Masoe, Jerry Colins etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVHDoQm_zhI

This is a network from the USA showing the highlights of the NPC. It has players like Luke McAllister, Regan King, Carlos Spencer,Doug Howlett, Ben Blair, Isaac Boss, Justin Marshall, Andrew Mehrtens, Richie McCaw, Umaga, Riki Flutey, Marty Holah, Christian Cullen, Mills Muliaina etc

But no, im sure more people world wide care about English Div 1 and Welsh Prem.

The players are probably of a comparable caliber too. Riki Flutey? Regan King? Jimmy Gopperth? they wouldnt last 2 minutes in the Guiness premiership. All those no-names would probably be English Div 1 standard.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You're right, ANZ and Currie Cup isn't the top competition in the South Hemisphare. Which is why the Heineken Cup (being the top competition in the NH) should be the only competition from the NH in the game. Good bye Magner League, Guiness Premiership, Top 14 etc.

Well, no, because there's nothing like the HEC in the SH. If anything, don't put that in, and keep the leagues.

I want the ANZ/Currie Cup in the game anyway, i just thought the SH posters were getting really worked up over nothing

 

[tomwid_88]

The thing about the HEC/Magners League/GP is that they all feature the same teams i.e. those who play in the magners play in the HEC also, and all of these teams are already featured in the game, so it seems pretty stupid to leave out these comps when the teams are already there

With the NPC/Currie Cup, you have to add a load of new teams as well as licensing deals etc., so it would be a lot more difficult and probably less of a priority to get these in as Super 15 is already the premier competition in the SH

Having said that I would enjoy having those competitions in the game, as when I was down in New Zealand a few years ago I really enjoyed watching the Air New Zealand Cup, but I think it would be a little too difficult for HB Studios to feature them.

 

[ranger]

Well, no, because there's nothing like the HEC in the SH. If anything, don't put that in, and keep the leagues.

I want the ANZ/Currie Cup in the game anyway, i just thought the SH posters were getting really worked up over nothing

Equally, there is nothing like the super 14 in the NH!

The NZ super 14 sides are made up of players from their constituent unions,
The Hurricanes for example are made up of players from Manawatu, Hawkesbay, Taranaki and Wellington. The players are chosen for the Hurricanes on merit, if they perform in the NPC then they might get picked up for the Hurricanes, therefore the team changes year by year depending on form. Its much like an international side in that respect.

Its also like an international side in that the super 14 sides have no players contracted to them, if you want to play for the Hurricanes, you sign for Hawkesbay and hope you get selected. Much like a player would sign for Newcastle and hope to get selected in the English National team.

There is nothing like this in the NH, does this mean there should be no Super 14? not really.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Equally, there is nothing like the super 14 in the NH!

The NZ super 14 sides are made up of players from their constituent unions,
The Hurricanes for example are made up of players from Manawatu, Hawkesbay, Taranaki and Wellington. The players are chosen for the Hurricanes on merit, if they perform in the NPC then they might get picked up for the Hurricanes, therefore the team changes year by year depending on form. Its much like an international side in that respect.

You mean like the Magners league?

 

[ranger]

You mean like the Magners league?

So you're saying Rocky Elsom signed his contract with Blackrock and then worked his way up to play for Leinster? Leinster and Munster and that are unable to sign any players right?
I guess the Munster Academy and Munster Under 21s ect don't exist either? seen as Munster isnt a team in its self and is just the combination of players from a number of unions for a single season? That would make them unable to have an academy..

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So you're saying Rocky Elsom signed his contract with Blackrock and then worked his way up to play for Leinster?

So you're saying Andy Goode played for the Natal Sharks, got spotted by the Sharks scouts and made his way up?

You have to admit, they have a similar structure to them

 

[ranger]

So you're saying Andy Goode played for the Natal Sharks, got spotted by the Sharks scouts and made his way up?

You have to admit, they have a similar structure to them

To be fair, Freddie Michalack pretty much fits that scenario, he played Currie Cup.
New Zealand does things differently to SA though, if you have a look at the NZ system its very different to anything in the NH. Super 14 teams don't sign players, their team differs from year to year based on selections, they don't have academies or youth teams because its up to the individual unions to have academies and youth teams. As a result there is a following for the unions, there is more pride in those teams i feel.

The moral of the story is, things are different every where, its hard to compare any of the competitions. At the very base level, there are loads NH competitions and only one for the SH. I find that unfair.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

So you're saying Andy Goode played for the Natal Sharks, got spotted by the Sharks scouts and made his way up?

You have to admit, they have a similar structure to them

Freddie Michalak and Juan Martín Hernández were the same ...

Olyy no point arguing ... when you see points like 'does this mean there should be no Super 14? not really' then there is no point in arguing for the sake of it because they are making silly assumptions and comments to things that are not there to argue about.

Going on to say what has the Welsh Prem produced ... (Division 1 by by the way is split up into West and East and include sides like UWIC, Builth Wells, Tonmawr ... etc)

Welsh Prem has produced James Hook, Alun Wyn-Jones, Tom Prydie, Kristian Phillips (maybe more but can't think) ... yes the Ospreys Academy has played its role but gained its playing experience playing for the likes of Neath, Swansea and Aberavon. Im just trying to make a point here as well about the Welsh Prem is now a breeding ground for young Welsh internationals.

I never said that the NPC / Currie Cup etc should not be included! I just said that if they added those competitions then they should look at adding the Welsh Prem, Div 1 and the BI Cup for it.

 

[ranger]

Freddie Michalak and Juan Martín Hernández were the same ...

Olyy no point arguing ... when you see points like 'does this mean there should be no Super 14? not really' then there is no point in arguing for the sake of it because they are making silly assumptions and comments to things that are not there to argue about.

Going on to say what has the Welsh Prem produced ... (Division 1 by by the way is split up into West and East and include sides like UWIC, Builth Wells, Tonmawr ... etc)

Welsh Prem has produced James Hook, Alun Wyn-Jones, Tom Prydie, Kristian Phillips (maybe more but can't think) ... yes the Ospreys Academy has played its role but gained its playing experience playing for the likes of Neath, Swansea and Aberavon. Im just trying to make a point here as well about the Welsh Prem is now a breeding ground for young Welsh internationals.

I never said that the NPC / Currie Cup etc should not be included! I just said that if they added those competitions then they should look at adding the Welsh Prem, Div 1 and the BI Cup for it.

Could you please explain how exactly you come to the conclusion that if NPC is included they should add Welsh Prem etc. it doesnt make sense and you haven't given any real reasons.

If you put Wales in the game you may aswell throw in Zimbabwae and Cameroon. Look i can make out of the blue statments with no real reason or correlation too!

Just look at it, Welsh Prem has produced some good players as you have pointed out, they have since moved on to Ospreys etc, so really they are full of no-name (for now, there could be the next Hook in there somewhere) players.
The NPC has produced alot of good players. The difference being that they still play for these teams! The Canterbury side has McCaw and Carter in it still to this day. Andrew Hore plays for Taranaki, Luke McAllister for North harbour NOW.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

We can dance around it all day and all night and the next, but like it or not there has been a structural and cultural divide between the way hemispheres play and direct their rugby clubs for a long time. This has fostered an obvious us & them policy at times. In view of that, the southern hemisphere rugby gamers have taken a very obvious look at the number of competitions involving northern club teams and realised that if the Magners, Celtic and Top 14 Leagues are included, that there would then be an absolute grand canyon gulf between the competitions and teams available for northern fans as opposed to southern fans.

That would be 5 competitions (gameplay options) and we would have 1. That is the truth here. We have rather rudely suggested that 5 northern comps and 3 southern would be fair. How dare we.


(By the way, as long as the debate doesn't get any more serious than this, I'm thinking it's probably been the spiciest topic in the '12 forums).

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Could you please explain how exactly you come to the conclusion that if NPC is included they should add Welsh Prem etc. it doesnt make sense and you haven't given any real reasons.

S15 is the top tier ... if you include the HEC most of the Magners League sides play in it so might as well add the two or three left. You would do the same for the GP and the same for the Top 14.

The NPC / Currie Cup is the second tier (Super 15 is top tier ... cant argue that) ... it is deffo without a doubt a better standard than the Welsh Prem, English Div 1 etc as they are also second tier and could be included in the game. What I laugh about this thread is that the SH are believing this is a game purely just for them (I can make that assumption by the number of responses purely on the number of people moaning about the suggestion that why should they include Welsh Prem etc, I perhaps should have said should include the B&I Cup instead of the Welsh Prem and English Div 1).

Oh and if there is a demand for it then they should add Zimbabwe and Cameroon leagues also

...

Also tell me where my argument has no correlation so I can justify it to you?

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

What I laugh about this thread is that the SH are believing this is a game purely just for them (I can make that assumption by the number of responses purely on the number of people moaning about the suggestion that why should they include Welsh Prem etc, I perhaps should have said should include the B&I Cup instead of the Welsh Prem and English Div 1).

Purely a game just for us? You get that by us saying 5 comps for NH and 3 for SH? Wow. That's honestly amazing.




(Still it's a great debate).