Rugby 2012 - Teams & Competitions

[Dexter Tauvao]

The Currie Cup is a MUST. Its the top domestic competition in the world.
So is the NPC.
Blue Bulls would win the Heineken Cup if they were shoved in. Even against Toulouse and Munster etc.

Perhaps an imaginative Heineken vs S14 (S15) tournament?? If you could somehow find a time slot?

 

[ranger]

S15 is the top tier ... if you include the HEC most of the Magners League sides play in it so might as well add the two or three left. You would do the same for the GP and the same for the Top 14.

The NPC / Currie Cup is the second tier (Super 15 is top tier ... cant argue that) ... it is deffo without a doubt a better standard than the Welsh Prem, English Div 1 etc as they are also second tier and could be included in the game. What I laugh about this thread is that the SH are believing this is a game purely just for them (I can make that assumption by the number of responses purely on the number of people moaning about the suggestion that why should they include Welsh Prem etc, I perhaps should have said should include the B&I Cup instead of the Welsh Prem and English Div 1).

Oh and if there is a demand for it then they should add Zimbabwe and Cameroon leagues also

...

Also tell me where my argument has no correlation so I can justify it to you?

You have to understand, as i have been trying to explain, that the two Hemispheres aren't comparable. Just because the NPC is 2nd tier by SH definition and English Div 1 is 2nd tier by NH definition doesn't mean that they should be grouped together!

The NPC contains international players, the Welsh prem doesnt. This should be setting off alarm bells for you. Not just because it shows that the caliber of rugby is better, but because it shows that the systems work differently in different countries.

The Heiniken is actually very similar to the Super 14.
The GP is the top level of rugby in England, then if you are good enough, your team steps up to the Heiniken Cup.
The NPC is the top level of rugby in New Zealand, if you are good enough, you will make the team that steps up to the Super 14.

The hemispheres have gone about the competitions in a different way, you could argure that the Heiniken is the highest level of rugby and GP is tier 2, then what. Its not as black and white as you seem to think it is.

Also, we think the game is all about us? we want a 5-3 split in game modes in your favour?
You are telling me that if we get 3 game modes you should have 8! Me Me Me right?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Im not denying the NH has more competition in the game ... it bloody does thats a fact. But what im saying is that some are thinking that its a game just for the SH people and want to justify by having more SH competitions in the game. It goes back to Top Tier rugby and im all in favour to include all top tier rugby but if you start including second tier rugby where is the cut off point?

The Welsh Prem does include Welsh international may not be current but have played ... go and look it up!

Also, we think the game is all about us? we want a 5-3 split in game modes in your favour?
You are telling me that if we get 3 game modes you should have 8! Me Me Me right?

Here we go with more childish comments.

Me, me, me ye thats right because all Ive asked is for a simple inclusion like that you want and you have kicked off ... whether you like it or not you can compare the Welsh Prem to the NPC ... there are internationals (Tom Prydie being one of the current ones), if they are good enough they are picked up by clubs to play in the Mangers League much like you say for the NPC ---> Super 14 /15.

You have banged on about it not being fair and I have agreed but at the end of the day Im not losing sleep over this debate Im not fussed about the Welsh Prem etc being included just be nice inclusion in the game.

I know how the NPC works because this year luckily enough our club had Davis Norman ... Hawkes Bay and NPC 2003 Man of the Year. Go look him up.

 

[Hamez]

S15 is the top tier ... if you include the HEC most of the Magners League sides play in it so might as well add the two or three left. You would do the same for the GP and the same for the Top 14.

The NPC / Currie Cup is the second tier (Super 15 is top tier ... cant argue that) ... it is deffo without a doubt a better standard than the Welsh Prem, English Div 1 etc as they are also second tier and could be included in the game. What I laugh about this thread is that the SH are believing this is a game purely just for them (I can make that assumption by the number of responses purely on the number of people moaning about the suggestion that why should they include Welsh Prem etc, I perhaps should have said should include the B&I Cup instead of the Welsh Prem and English Div 1).

Oh and if there is a demand for it then they should add Zimbabwe and Cameroon leagues also

...

Also tell me where my argument has no correlation so I can justify it to you?

But your wrong the heniken cup is the top teir, then guiness premiership, top 14 and magners league are second teir comps.

Japan needs representation in the game before more home nation comps.

Id honestly love to see all club teams in it, but that aint gonna happen anytime soon.

I think there is an over representation of home nations, but thats not just in the game, its the same in the IRB. But thats not just towards the home nations, but sanzar as well. It took them long enough to look after the minor nations by creating 5 nations tournaments around the world, inclusion of argentina. Giving the world cup to japan, how england gets the next one is a joke, let alone new zealand this time. Japan should be holding this one if not the next, and argentina deserves to hold one. There really needs a change of veiw towards actually spreading the game around the world, not just little steps. But the big nations dont really want competition.

I am extremely surprised by the growth of the sport around the world.

just to give you guys some numbers, these are the player registration numbers of each nation. Some are extremely surprising. the ones that surprised me the most are bolded

Major nations

Argentina - There were no figures avaliable
Australia - 84,450
England - 2,146,140
France - 273,084
Ireland - 152,830
Italy - 61,487
New Zealand - 145,293
Scotland - 32,817
South Africa - 488,044
Wales - 46,324

Minor Nations

Canada - 22,218
Chile - 16,724
Fiji - 41,017
Georgia - 4,097
Germany - 10,248
Hong Kong - 7,142
Japan - 122,598
Kenya - 40,955
Malaysia - 41,050
Namibia - 7,327
Russia - 14,519
Portugal - 5,940
Romania - 8,188
Samoa - 23,122
Spain - 18,707
Tonga - 10,168
Tunisia - 15,057
Uruguay - 5,829
Zimbabwae - 27,553
USA - 81,678

 

[ranger]

Im not denying the NH has more competition in the game ... it bloody does thats a fact. But what im saying is that some are thinking that its a game just for the SH people and want to justify by having more SH competitions in the game. It goes back to Top Tier rugby and im all in favour to include all top tier rugby but if you start including second tier rugby where is the cut off point?

What im saying is that "Tier 2" means different things in different places. The Canterbury NPC team has Dan Carter and Richie McCaw in it FFS, obviously the definition of "Tier two" differs somewhat from place to place.

And how, in the hell, is thinking that 3 competitions for SH and 5 for NH is a game all about the SH? Im not saying take away the Magners league because its all about the SH, im all for the Magners league.
Im just saying, if the NH has 5 competitions, can i have 3 please.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

But your wrong the heniken cup is the top teir, then guiness premiership, top 14 and magners league are second teir comps.

Japan needs representation in the game before more home nation comps.

Id honestly love to see all club teams in it, but that aint gonna happen anytime soon.

I think there is an over representation of home nations, but thats not just in the game, its the same in the IRB. But thats not just towards the home nations, but sanzar as well. It took them long enough to look after the minor nations by creating 5 nations tournaments around the world, inclusion of argentina. Giving the world cup to japan, how england gets the next one is a joke, let alone new zealand this time. Japan should be holding this one if not the next, and argentina deserves to hold one. There really needs a change of veiw towards actually spreading the game around the world, not just little steps. But the big nations dont really want competition.

I am extremely surprised by the growth of the sport around the world.

just to give you guys some numbers, these are the player registration numbers of each nation. Some are extremely surprising. the ones that surprised me the most are bolded

Major nations

Argentina - There were no figures avaliable
Australia - 84,450
England - 2,146,140
France - 273,084
Ireland - 152,830
Italy - 61,487
New Zealand - 145,293
Scotland - 32,817
South Africa - 488,044
Wales - 46,324

Minor Nations

Canada - 22,218
Chile - 16,724
Fiji - 41,017
Georgia - 4,097
Germany - 10,248
Hong Kong - 7,142
Japan - 122,598
Kenya - 40,955
Malaysia - 41,050
Namibia - 7,327
Russia - 14,519
Portugal - 5,940
Romania - 8,188
Samoa - 23,122
Spain - 18,707
Tonga - 10,168
Tunisia - 15,057
Uruguay - 5,829
Zimbabwae - 27,553
USA - 81,678

Compared to the way you posted that info the last time this is 100x better. Makes sense. That's why I said if the Japan Pro League was something I would be keen to have a crack at if it got the chance. Still would 10x prefer Currie Cup and NPC, but that's understandable as they are the ones that have more history and are watched a lot around the world. Still, yeah the little guys of rugby (smaller nations and developing), aren't getting much of a crack.

 

[ranger]

Im not denying the NH has more competition in the game ... it bloody does thats a fact. But what im saying is that some are thinking that its a game just for the SH people and want to justify by having more SH competitions in the game. It goes back to Top Tier rugby and im all in favour to include all top tier rugby but if you start including second tier rugby where is the cut off point?

The Welsh Prem does include Welsh international may not be current but have played ... go and look it up!



Here we go with more childish comments.

Me, me, me ye thats right because all Ive asked is for a simple inclusion like that you want and you have kicked off ... whether you like it or not you can compare the Welsh Prem to the NPC ... there are internationals (Tom Prydie being one of the current ones), if they are good enough they are picked up by clubs to play in the Mangers League much like you say for the NPC ---> Super 14 /15.

You have banged on about it not being fair and I have agreed but at the end of the day Im not losing sleep over this debate Im not fussed about the Welsh Prem etc being included just be nice inclusion in the game.

I know how the NPC works because this year luckily enough our club had Davis Norman ... Hawkes Bay and NPC 2003 Man of the Year. Go look him up.

So non current Wales players count as internationals in your estimation..
EVERY CURRENT ALL BLACK PLAYS NPC RUGBY. Every single one. stop trying to compare the competitions because it just doesn't work, they are just set up differently.

Your suggesting a 3-8 split. i think your being childish in that instance sunshine.


You say if they play well enough in Welsh prem they get picked up by Magners clubs, this is NOTHING like NPC to Super 14.
If you get picked up by a Magners club, you leave your Welsh prem club and go and play for a Magners outfit.
If you get picked up by a Super 14 side, YOU STAY IN YOUR NPC TEAM, you simply earn the right to play Super 14 for a single season. You dont seem to understand this distinction.

Also, i can now see how you would be a little confused. Davis Norman played NPC DIV 2. this is an entirely different competition from NPC DIV 1. That actually explains alot. I would compare NPC div 2 to Welsh Prem actually.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

So non current Wales players count as internationals in your estimation..
EVERY CURRENT ALL BLACK PLAYS NPC RUGBY. Every single one. stop trying to compare the competitions because it just doesn't work, they are just set up differently.

Your suggesting a 3-8 split. i think your being childish in that instance sunshine.


You say if they play well enough in Welsh prem they get picked up by Magners clubs, this is NOTHING like NPC to Super 14.
If you get picked up by a Magners club, you leave your Welsh prem club and go and play for a Magners outfit.
If you get picked up by a Super 14 side, YOU STAY IN YOUR NPC TEAM, you simply earn the right to play Super 14 for a single season. You dont seem to understand this distinction.

Also, i can now see how you would be a little confused. Davis Norman played NPC DIV 2. this is an entirely different competition from NPC DIV 1. That actually explains alot. I would compare NPC div 2 to Welsh Prem actually.

(Says in a whisper) "So, would I!", lol

 

[Duckdee]

Some thoughts that popped in my mind from reading the last few pages:

Is the Celtic league an unlicensed Magners? Joe Duffey hasn't broken Leicester's first XV yet. Having NZ and SA leagues would feel weird to me without an Aus one. I'd quite fancy Japan's league. I don't think the Championship or Welsh Prem should be added. FIFA has more than the top division for the more football-mad nations, so there is precedent for some countries getting more than others. If there is an achievement for it, I will play it.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Well you got it wrong with Welsh Prem and Magners ...

You will find that in Wales and Ireland all players are contracted to a Welsh Prem side / provincial side and also their region side ... so James Hook is linked to the Ospreys and Neath ... Henson Swansea and Ospreys, Alun Wyn-Jones Swansea and Ospreys, Tom Prydie Swansea and Wales, Kristian Phillips Neath and Opreys. The same goes in Ireland. Yet I do acknowledge that they don't play regularly or even that much for them.

I cannot even believe im having such a petty argument with a member who is kicking off about a possible suggestion of including clubs from the B&I Cup!

 

[nickdnz]

Some thoughts that popped in my mind from reading the last few pages:

Is the Celtic league an unlicensed Magners? Joe Duffey hasn't broken Leicester's first XV yet. Having NZ and SA leagues would feel weird to me without an Aus one. I'd quite fancy Japan's league. I don't think the Championship or Welsh Prem should be added. FIFA has more than the top division for the more football-mad nations, so there is precedent for some countries getting more than others. If there is an achievement for it, I will play it.

I'd like a Japan League as well. Australia dosn't have a meaningful domestic competition.

I don't really understand this argument. Cymro seems to think that because NPC and Currie Cups are not the highest honours in club/domestic teams, they shouldn't be added. He further explains that if they were to be added, second teir teams from other countires should also be added. The other side of this is that NH all ready have a larger number of both club/domestic teams, and therefore there should be a slight gap in the representation of each hemisphare. I think what Cymro dosen't realize is the importance our domestic competitions have to both New Zealand and South Africa. Prior to the S14 which was only created 15 years ago, domestic rugby was the highest level of rugby in SA and NZ. It is held with such regard, many people wish to get rid of the S14 and go back to the NPC. There is more pride in many ways watching a game of Wellington vs Cantebury than there is Hurricanes vs Crusaders. Can anyone honestly say that there is the same passion or importance that goes into any other "teir 2" rugby competition in the world?

As it is I do agree with Hamez - Rugby is becoming a more popular sport, and I think representation of some of the other professional leagues would both promote the game on the whole as well as increase the market for Rugby 2012. If i buy a sport game from a NZ perspective, I like to have my teams at least represented. They should be ranked accordingly however representation will encourage me to buy a game. From a realistic stand point, noone can expect HB to pay out THAT much money on licencing as well as time in researching every pro league teams and players, however I think adding several key league teams from Japan, Argentina, USA, Russia and Canada would make the game alot more appealing especially to a Japanese and American auidence (when was the last sports team game that sold well in America that didn't feature state/city teams and only on a USA team?). I'm not saying have every team, just a few key ones such as how Italy was represented in previous rugby games. It would also I think, go along way if some other small rugby nations were added, that way a play-off system for a RWC tornement would be cool.

In conclusion, if a game is going to be releaced from my perspective, I think having NPC/Currie Cup teams would be a big bonus, especially if even more leagues from Europe are going to be added. However from both a marketing and promotion point of view, having a few extra teams from smaller leagues will help promote both rugby on a higher scale while also appealing to other countries to buy the game.

 

[ranger]

Well you got it wrong with Welsh Prem and Magners ...

You will find that in Wales and Ireland all players are contracted to a Welsh Prem side / provincial side and also their region side ... so James Hook is linked to the Ospreys and Neath ... Henson Swansea and Ospreys, Alun Wyn-Jones Swansea and Ospreys, Tom Prydie Swansea and Wales, Kristian Phillips Neath and Opreys. The same goes in Ireland. Yet I do acknowledge that they don't play regularly or even that much for them.

I cannot even believe im having such a petty argument with a member who is kicking off about a possible suggestion of including clubs from the B&I Cup!

Oh, my mistake. The complete lack of any Magners league players in any of the Welsh prem team lists was misleading.

http://www.neathrugby.co.uk/the-squad/ even Neath doesnt think Hook plays for them.. I did spot a couple Kiwis who couldnt make it to NPC level though..

And it may be a petty argument to you, but the NPC competition means alot to me. Alot more than the media and profit driven mess the super 15 is turning out to be.

 

[Duckdee]

I'm learning quite a bit about real-world rugby, here. (I'm not new to the sport, I used to go to Welford Road before professionalism, I've just been out of the loop for a few years.)

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Oh, my mistake. The complete lack of any Magners league players in any of the Welsh prem team lists was misleading.

http://www.neathrugby.co.uk/the-squad/ even Neath doesnt think Hook plays for them.. I did spot a couple Kiwis who couldnt make it to NPC level though..

And it may be a petty argument to you, but the NPC competition means alot to me. Alot more than the media and profit driven mess the super 15 is turning out to be.

There have been so many discussions all around NZ over the last 3 or 4 years about the Super 14 vs the NPC. There's still the odd person who'd rather the Super 14 over the NPC, but in general it's the other way around. I can't believe how many "oh so you feel that way to" discussions I've had with other people who are of the same mind.

Funnily enough every kiwi and South African here has said the same about their domestic cup.

Just a little anecdote, my dad said to me about 5 years into the Super comp (around 10 years ago), "You watch. All of the Southern Hemisphere sides will see far too much of each other, and then eventually they'll all play a brand of rugby too similar to each other. It'll all be for money as professionalism becomes more established". "We'll all have already shown the opposition nearly everything we know by the time tests come round each year".

Boy was he right. I bet the South Africans and New Zealanders love their domestic rugby more because it inspires and because it's different. Come test time it's less original than it used to be.

Back to the discussion on the Teams & comps, it'll be quite funny if they don't add anything new comp wise. All this would have been for nothing.

And to duckdee, it has been a bit of an irritable thread, but riveting none the less, lol.

 

[tomwid_88]

Why does it always have to be "you vs us"? I'm all for having NPC, Currie Cup etc. because I would enjoy playing those game modes, however I do not see why there is such hostility from the SH posters against the Welsh Prem/Championship being included in the game. Surely the more competitions the better. A Japan League would also be interesting, I don't know an awful lot about it but would enjoy playing it. And just to clear something up Welsh players do play for their local sides i.e. Neath or Swansea etc.. as well as the Ospreys...

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Why does it always have to be "you vs us"? I'm all for having NPC, Currie Cup etc. because I would enjoy playing those game modes, however I do not see why there is such hostility from the SH posters against the Welsh Prem/Championship being included in the game. Surely the more competitions the better. A Japan League would also be interesting, I don't know an awful lot about it but would enjoy playing it. And just to clear something up Welsh players do play for their local sides i.e. Neath or Swansea etc.. as well as the Ospreys...

I think you misunderstood a few points.

The semi-hostility was travelling both ways.
The Southern Hemisphere guys were happy with the idea of 5 club competitions from the north and 3 from the south. So, for more north ones to be added, how would that be fair, and why would we support that?
Why does it always have to be a "you versus us", that's a question that both sides of the discussion feel, but it's not going away. It's a natural rivalry due to completely different styles of running our clubs, competitions and styles of play.

Your post seems to suggest that the Southern Hemisphere posters are the bad guys? If that's so, then you are doing the "You vs us" thing yourself. Easy to do, huh?

 

[ranger]

There have been so many discussions all around NZ over the last 3 or 4 years about the Super 14 vs the NPC. There's still the odd person who'd rather the Super 14 over the NPC, but in general it's the other way around. I can't believe how many "oh so you feel that way to" discussions I've had with other people who are of the same mind.

Funnily enough every kiwi and South African here has said the same about their domestic cup.

Just a little anecdote, my dad said to me about 5 years into the Super comp (around 10 years ago), "You watch. All of the Southern Hemisphere sides will see far too much of each other, and then eventually they'll all play a brand of rugby too similar to each other. It'll all be for money as professionalism becomes more established". "We'll all have already shown the opposition nearly everything we know by the time tests come round each year".

Boy was he right. I bet the South Africans and New Zealanders love their domestic rugby more because it inspires and because it's different. Come test time it's less original than it used to be.

Back to the discussion on the Teams & comps, it'll be quite funny if they don't add anything new comp wise. All this would have been for nothing.

And to duckdee, it has been a bit of an irritable thread, but riveting none the less, lol.

Smart man your dad. Thats so accurate its kind of scary. He didnt happen to tell you any lottery numbers did he?

 

[Bokbe4k]

Why dont we throw in schools rugby for good measure,man,playing as my son in Grey Collage would be great!

 

[tomwid_88]

I think you misunderstood a few points.

The semi-hostility was travelling both ways.
The Southern Hemisphere guys were happy with the idea of 5 club competitions from the north and 3 from the south. So, for more north ones to be added, how would that be fair, and why would we support that?
Why does it always have to be a "you versus us", that's a question that both sides of the discussion feel, but it's not going away. It's a natural rivalry due to completely different styles of running our clubs, competitions and styles of play.

Your post seems to suggest that the Southern Hemisphere posters are the bad guys? If that's so, then you are doing the "You vs us" thing yourself. Easy to do, huh?

I don't quite understand how you think I'm portraying you as the "bad guys". I just think that some SH posters (not all) are suggesting that HB should include NPC but are seriously against the idea of a Welsh Prem mode for example. I think both should be debated, and I think NPC/Currie Cup are better competitions and should be included, but it wouldn't hurt to look at the lower divisions in the NH

 

[tushers]

I agree that the Currie Cup and NPC should be included as well. Not neccasarily at the expence of any European Competitions, but as added tournaments. Its two very entertaining competitions, where future Springboks and All Blacks are blooded and where current Internationals desire to play. I hope the guys at HB can accomodate these competitions as well. As for Japan, i definately think they are an untapped market, but due to their player quotas, there are limited former internationals in each team... and I don't think the level in Japan is of a similar quality as SA, NZ and the Northern hemisphere leagues such as Magners, Guinnes Prem and French Top 14. Anyone know more about the level of Japans Top flight?