[RWC19 Warm-Up] - England vs. Italy

[Vieux Talonneur]

Billy at 8? Again?!

And what's the point in Singleton being in the squad if his role in the squad is apparently just to play 2 minutes off the bench at 7.

You may well ask.

Jones clearly doesn't particularly rate / trust Singleton.

He clearly hasn't particularly rated / trusted LCD in the past.

And until Hartley got crocked he clearly didn't trust George either.

George is now the clear number one number two. But both of the others could have to play significant minutes if he gets hurt. Jones may not think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they're in the squad and they need to believe that Jones has faith in them. Even if he doesn't.

 

[BPM]

Have Italy named their side? From a Quins fan's point of view, it could be interesting to see Marchant vs. Campagnaro.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I actually think this game is essential for England, otherwise there would be 4 weeks with no rugby between the Ireland game and England's world cup opener against Tonga. This way, at least some of the squad will have had match practice during that period.

Ben Youngs needs to have a good game, just to remind people that he actually can. The name that sticks out for me though is Kvesic. He was once hailed as England's answer at 7, but Eddie didn't rate him and preferred 6-and-a-halfs. I'm pretty sure he wasn't in the world cup training squad for all the heat camps etc, yet he's been hanging around the squad for the past few weeks and looks like he's now going to get some game time. Is he on the reserve call-up list? That's a pretty big leap from where he's been in terms of the international picture. Can he still play at 8 (pretty sure he started his career there), is that why Eddie's flirting with him?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I actually think this game is essential for England, otherwise there would be 4 weeks with no rugby between the Ireland game and England's world cup opener against Tonga. This way, at least some of the squad will have had match practice during that period.

Ben Youngs needs to have a good game, just to remind people that he actually can. The name that sticks out for me though is Kvesic. He was once hailed as England's answer at 7, but Eddie didn't rate him and preferred 6-and-a-halfs. I'm pretty sure he wasn't in the world cup training squad for all the heat camps etc, yet he's been hanging around the squad for the past few weeks and looks like he's now going to get some game time. Is he on the reserve call-up list? That's a pretty big leap from where he's been in terms of the international picture. Can he still play at 8 (pretty sure he started his career there), is that why Eddie's flirting with him?

He's played there all season in Simmonds' absence.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

If it's just numbers then why doesn't Jones pick the correct ones? Almost like he messes with stuff just to be a dick.

I think he messes with stuff to mess with the opposition's heads. I actually love it when he keeps throwing all these googlies.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

He's played there all season in Simmonds' absence.

Shows you how much attention I've been paying! Is he any good as an 8? Does he have the necessary power, or is he more like a Simmonds kind of 8?

 

[Scotty]

Shows you how much attention I've been paying! Is he any good as an 8? Does he have the necessary power, or is he more like a Simmonds kind of 8?

His carrying has improved alot and he has a high workrate in attack now. I think he is still a 7 but has developed a good all round game and i see why he is in or around this team.

Seems like we are phasing out the 6s, powerful 8 and 2 7s all you need

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

If it's just numbers then why doesn't Jones pick the correct ones? Almost like he messes with stuff just to be a dick.

I think it's to do with the game plan Eddie has for his 1st XV side. He clearly wants to start off with a very dynamic, mobile pack; Vunipola, George and Sinckler in the front row with Curry and Underhill on the flanks, then plans on bringing on more abrasive, physical guys in those positions for the last 20-30 minutes; Marler, LCD and Cole in the front row with Lawes and Wilson on the flanks. So far in the warm-ups Lawes has only played 6 and Wilson came on at 7 last week and is starting there this week. I would imagine that Eddie's playing guys in the positions that he sees then playing in the 1st XV

 

[BPM]

His carrying has improved alot and he has a high workrate in attack now. I think he is still a 7 but has developed a good all round game and i see why he is in or around this team.

Seems like we are phasing out the 6s, powerful 8 and 2 7s all you need

TBH, I think it's debatable whether the 8 in Exeter's set-up actually performs the role you'd expect. The numbers don't mean a great deal.

They normally line up with two heavyweights at 6 and 7 (mostly Ewers and Armand) with the smaller, quicker player at 8. I don't fully understand the reasoning but putting a number 8 on Kvesic or Simmonds' back doesn't actually mean they play like an 8. From what I've seen, neither carry from the base of the scrum that much, or if they do, they seem to be used more as distributors to give the 9 extra space. A lot of the time, they're running the support lines you'd expect from a 7 rather than an 8. Arguably Ewers plays more like an 8 with a 6 on his shirt and Armand plays like a blindside with a 7 on his.

Don't get me wrong, Simmonds and Kvesic carry but not like a traditional 8 and not on first phase. More like when Ardie Savea plays 8.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

TBH, I think it's debatable whether the 8 in Exeter's set-up actually performs the role you'd expect. The numbers don't mean a great deal.

They normally line up with two heavyweights at 6 and 7 (mostly Ewers and Armand) with the smaller, quicker player at 8. I don't fully understand the reasoning but putting a number 8 on Kvesic or Simmonds' back doesn't actually mean they play like an 8. From what I've seen, neither carry from the base of the scrum that much, or if they do, they seem to be used more as distributors to give the 9 extra space. A lot of the time, they're running the support lines you'd expect from a 7 rather than an 8. Arguably Ewers plays more like an 8 with a 6 on his shirt and Armand plays like a blindside with a 7 on his.

Don't get me wrong, Simmonds and Kvesic carry but not like a traditional 8 and not on first phase. More like when Ardie Savea plays 8.

What I've heard, and take this with an enormous grain of salt because I don't want to perpetuate this if not true, is that Ewers isn't the smartest of fellers (to say it nicely) and so isn't really trusted with some of the complexities of playing 8 and so effectively just gets played at 6 where he can smash people without paying much attention to doing anything else. Apparently this is also why he hasn't really had a look into the England squad. Armand isn't much of a carrier and so that rules him out of playing 8, and as a result the mantle has fallen upon Simmonds and Kvesic due to process of elimination rather than that it's Baxter's preferred way of doing things.

I'd say Kvesic is still very much a 7 rather than an 8.

 

[Scotty]

What I've heard, and take this with an enormous grain of salt because I don't want to perpetuate this if not true, is that Ewers isn't the smartest of fellers (to say it nicely) and so isn't really trusted with some of the complexities of playing 8 and so effectively just gets played at 6 where he can smash people without paying much attention to doing anything else. Apparently this is also why he hasn't really had a look into the England squad. Armand isn't much of a carrier and so that rules him out of playing 8, and as a result the mantle has fallen upon Simmonds and Kvesic due to process of elimination rather than that it's Baxter's preferred way of doing things.

I'd say Kvesic is still very much a 7 rather than an 8.

So your saying Ewers is thick . Never heard that but hes prob just all bulk no brains haha.

Ewers out and out 8. Kvesic out and out 7 and armand out and out 6. So why shouldn't you play kvesic at 8 i think this is smart by baxter. If he constantly plays players out of position then they will think hes like EJ and give him the england job next

 

[BPM]

That could be true I guess. The conclusion I came to was that there wasn't an obvious 'like-for-like' replacement for Waldrom so Baxter developed a system to try to play to the various strengths of the back rowers he had at the time - i.e. an explosive player with lots of great qualities but without a settled position (Simmonds), a workhorse lineout forward (Armand) and a big brute (Ewers). As it worked so well, he kept it with Kvesic taking on some of what Simmonds was doing pre injury. That's my theory anyway.

What will be interesting is to see how he sets-up when all four are fit.

 

[Scotty]

That could be true I guess. The conclusion I came to was that there wasn't an obvious 'like-for-like' replacement for Waldrom so Baxter developed a system to try to play to the various strengths of the back rowers he had at the time - i.e. an explosive player with lots of great qualities but without a settled position (Simmonds), a workhorse lineout forward (Armand) and a big brute (Ewers). As it worked so well, he kept it with Kvesic taking on some of what Simmonds was doing pre injury. That's my theory anyway.

What will be interesting is to see how he sets-up when all four are fit.

Ewers Kvesic Simmonds. Armand experience on the bench. And thats chiefs best IMO.

Anyways think we have got away from the main point of the thread....WHY are we risking billy?

 

[RedruthRFC]

So your saying Ewers is thick .

Can we get an irony filter please?

I have it on half decent authority that Ewers doesn't measure up because of a fitness test that Jones is fond of. The only time I've seen him play live, he was a step behind the game.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Eddie likes to play risky with Billy V.

No injuries pls.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Eddie likes to play risky with Billy V.

No injuries pls.

The narrative is that he needs game time to keep him match fit....not sure whre these games are going to cone from in the intervening period.

 

[MarkyH]

I'm sure the physio and medical team monitor these guys to every breath they take. If they thought there was a risk of playing anyone they wouldn't. The only risk is in game injuries but you'd never play anyone if that was your first concern.

This is still pre-season. They haven't been with their clubs before an international break to build up match sharpness and fitness. Every team plays pre-season fixtures. Englands season doesn't start for another 16 days after the Italy game. Playing Billy V is fine by me if the best way to keep him fit and sharp is game time. Not all players are the same, or require the same fitness program to get them sharp and ready.

Not worried about the lack of game time for Singleton, it really doesn't matter. No other third choicer hooker for any nation has LOTS of international game time, but they do have plenty of time in camp to learn the calls, the tactics and he is not a problem player. Singleton isn't going to go moody if he never appears at the WC.

Players like Marchant and Kvesic who have had less time in camp should really have their 'pre-season' game just in case they do get called up to the squad. I'd have taken Kvesic in every England squad for the last 2 years to be honest so quite interested to see him play.

Just wish we had a Spencer as SH backup. He plays with Englands regular 8 and 10 so it seems really odd. But I'm sure EJ has his reasons. At least Heinz can do the basics Youngs struggles with

I remain optimistic. And I almost understand what EJ is doing

 

[Nudger]

I'm sure the physio and medical team monitor these guys to every breath they take. If they thought there was a risk of playing anyone they wouldn't. The only risk is in game injuries but you'd never play anyone if that was your first concern.

This is still pre-season. They haven't been with their clubs before an international break to build up match sharpness and fitness. Every team plays pre-season fixtures. Englands season doesn't start for another 16 days after the Italy game. Playing Billy V is fine by me if the best way to keep him fit and sharp is game time. Not all players are the same, or require the same fitness program to get them sharp and ready.

Not worried about the lack of game time for Singleton, it really doesn't matter. No other third choicer hooker for any nation has LOTS of international game time, but they do have plenty of time in camp to learn the calls, the tactics and he is not a problem player. Singleton isn't going to go moody if he never appears at the WC.

Players like Marchant and Kvesic who have had less time in camp should really have their 'pre-season' game just in case they do get called up to the squad. I'd have taken Kvesic in every England squad for the last 2 years to be honest so quite interested to see him play.

Just wish we had a Spencer as SH backup. He plays with Englands regular 8 and 10 so it seems really odd. But I'm sure EJ has his reasons. At least Heinz can do the basics Youngs struggles with

I remain optimistic. And I almost understand what EJ is doing

Good post
Wigglesworth is going to be in Japan as a consultant to Canada lol

 

[Which Tyler]

The narrative is that he needs game time to keep him match fit....not sure whre these games are going to cone from in the intervening period.

And therefore, instead of a 16 days break, you'd advocate a 29 day break?

He's playing 4 matches in 5 weeks - I really don't get where the idea that this is excessive comes from; especially if we want him to play 5 matches in 5 weeks once in Japan.
But then, I've never understood the logic of not-playing people "just in case" they get injured. If that's the attitude, then we might as well suggest that they find a different job entirely because rugby obviously isn't for them.
We're not talking fatigue, or over-playing injuries that can and should be "managed" with rotation; we're talking about the risk of a one-off injury that's more likely to happen in training than during a match.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's that, but also who's our back up 8 and when's the last time he actually played there?

vs All Blacks was it?


That's why Wilson should be starting at 8.