[RWC19 Warm-Up] - England vs. Italy

[MarkyH]

There's that, but also who's our back up 8 and when's the last time he actually played there?

vs All Blacks was it?


That's why Wilson should be starting at 8.

As long as Wilson is getting game time I'm not going to be too concerned. Ideally I'd like to see him get more time at 8 for England but he's a decent enough player to move there at short notice, and specific 8 skills he already has. Hopefully he can get the last 20 at 8, but we're not going to be putting a player like Singleton at 8 (I hope) who has no game experience there at all

On a side note, I've been watching the 'Rising Sons' series on You Tube and Wilson comes across as a real leader, and a hard trainer even though he's been injured the last few weeks....

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

And therefore, instead of a 16 days break, you'd advocate a 29 day break?

He's playing 4 matches in 5 weeks - I really don't get where the idea that this is excessive comes from; especially if we want him to play 5 matches in 5 weeks once in Japan.
But then, I've never understood the logic of not-playing people "just in case" they get injured. If that's the attitude, then we might as well suggest that they find a different job entirely because rugby obviously isn't for them.
We're not talking fatigue, or over-playing injuries that can and should be "managed" with rotation; we're talking about the risk of a one-off injury that's more likely to happen in training than during a match.

I'm inclined to agree that the risk is being overblown somewhat. However, I think there is a case to be made for not playing a key contributor in a meaningless game vs. a game where the result matters. If you look at the approach of NFL teams in their preseason, some don't play their established stars at all due to injury risk. The World Cup is slightly different in that almost every game is a must-win, so coming in with good form is more important, but I'd take Billy at 70% over the next best option.

Personally, I don't think that the marginal benefit of playing 40-50 mins against Italy in a meaningless game is worth the potential injury risk, but Billy seems to be quite an emotional, form/confidence-based player, so if he wants to play then he should play. I certainly think that anyone suggesting there will be a negative impact of playing all four games (assuming he comes through this one healthy) is talking nonsense - they have a 16 day recovery as you point out!

 

[MarkyH]

I'm inclined to agree that the risk is being overblown somewhat. However, I think there is a case to be made for not playing a key contributor in a meaningless game vs. a game where the result matters. If you look at the approach of NFL teams in their preseason, some don't play their established stars at all due to injury risk. The World Cup is slightly different in that almost every game is a must-win, so coming in with good form is more important, but I'd take Billy at 70% over the next best option.

Personally, I don't think that the marginal benefit of playing 40-50 mins against Italy in a meaningless game is worth the potential injury risk, but Billy seems to be quite an emotional, form/confidence-based player, so if he wants to play then he should play. I certainly think that anyone suggesting there will be a negative impact of playing all four games (assuming he comes through this one healthy) is talking nonsense - they have a 16 day recovery as you point out!

I don't take it as a meaningless game at all. If Billy is that kind of player then I'd play him, he's that important to keep sharp and fit. If we rest BV for this game, and play him VS Tonga it would be a 30 day break for him, and if his body is better playing according to BV, and the medical staff I wouldn't even question it. If your muscles aren't used to sudden impact and movement then you could get injured easily after a long break from the game. Tuilagi's injury problems weren't all the same either, if he had an injury and a break from Rugby when he came back it was always something else getting injured because that part of his body wasn't ready, and hadn't had game time for a long time, even though his original injury had cleared. The human body is weird, and they are not all the same...

Same all round the park, give Francis his first game with Farrell for example. These warm up games have meaning, especially playing combos that haven't played together before...

So, basically I agree with your latter paragraph, we shouldn't be worrying about fatigue or injuries in these games. We should be testing combos and making sure players are fit.

 

[BPM]

I'm sure the physio and medical team monitor these guys to every breath they take. If they thought there was a risk of playing anyone they wouldn't. The only risk is in game injuries but you'd never play anyone if that was your first concern.

This is still pre-season. They haven't been with their clubs before an international break to build up match sharpness and fitness. Every team plays pre-season fixtures. Englands season doesn't start for another 16 days after the Italy game. Playing Billy V is fine by me if the best way to keep him fit and sharp is game time. Not all players are the same, or require the same fitness program to get them sharp and ready.

Not worried about the lack of game time for Singleton, it really doesn't matter. No other third choicer hooker for any nation has LOTS of international game time, but they do have plenty of time in camp to learn the calls, the tactics and he is not a problem player. Singleton isn't going to go moody if he never appears at the WC.

Players like Marchant and Kvesic who have had less time in camp should really have their 'pre-season' game just in case they do get called up to the squad. I'd have taken Kvesic in every England squad for the last 2 years to be honest so quite interested to see him play.

Just wish we had a Spencer as SH backup. He plays with Englands regular 8 and 10 so it seems really odd. But I'm sure EJ has his reasons. At least Heinz can do the basics Youngs struggles with

I remain optimistic. And I almost understand what EJ is doing

I agree with most of this, but Kvesic played almost 0 rugby for Gloucester in the 17/18 season so in fairness to Eddie. He's only really been a viable contender recently.

 

[MarkyH]

I agree with most of this, but Kvesic played almost 0 rugby for Gloucester in the 17/18 season so in fairness to Eddie. He's only really been a viable contender recently.

I remember for a time at Gloucester he looked great, I know he played for the Saxons and maybe for England on an Argentina tour (during the 2013 Lions maybe?) so he's been on the radar a while.

He joined Exeter for the 17/18 season and has spent 2 seasons there, but I know he has definitely played more in the last year so maybe early issues he had as a player have been resolved? Was his work rate, and work in the loose up for debate a while?

 

[BPM]

He's been 'on the radar' for ages. I lost a season, but the point was that in 16/17 and 17/18 he made four starts per season so he wasn't exactly in the selection conversation.

That's a good chunk of Eddie's tenure. He called him up in 2016 but for the next couple of years, Kvesic wasn't playing enough to be in contention.

His work rate was always fine. My impression is that he bulked-up too much and lost a bit of mobility during his 'wilderness years'.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm sure the physio and medical team monitor these guys to every breath they take. If they thought there was a risk of playing anyone they wouldn't. The only risk is in game injuries but you'd never play anyone if that was your first concern.

This is still pre-season. They haven't been with their clubs before an international break to build up match sharpness and fitness. Every team plays pre-season fixtures. Englands season doesn't start for another 16 days after the Italy game. Playing Billy V is fine by me if the best way to keep him fit and sharp is game time. Not all players are the same, or require the same fitness program to get them sharp and ready.

Not worried about the lack of game time for Singleton, it really doesn't matter. No other third choicer hooker for any nation has LOTS of international game time, but they do have plenty of time in camp to learn the calls, the tactics and he is not a problem player. Singleton isn't going to go moody if he never appears at the WC.

Players like Marchant and Kvesic who have had less time in camp should really have their 'pre-season' game just in case they do get called up to the squad. I'd have taken Kvesic in every England squad for the last 2 years to be honest so quite interested to see him play.

Just wish we had a Spencer as SH backup. He plays with Englands regular 8 and 10 so it seems really odd. But I'm sure EJ has his reasons. At least Heinz can do the basics Youngs struggles with

I remain optimistic. And I almost understand what EJ is doing

But they don't always get it right and even the best science in the world can't guarantee - Mako was off the field after 15 mins with a problem on the same injury. Part of the reason one or two of us are kicking off about Binny is that he's proven to be injury prone and this really is a meaningless match in the bigger picture. Risk / reward trade off is heavily skewed.

I accept everyone needs the odd hit out. But this is pre RWC, not pre season. That's different. If you lose a player for 4 or 5 club matches at the start of a normal season there are plenty more games for them to play and influence outcomes. Lose one of our top players now for that time period and they could miss the whole RWC which would be personally terrible for them and could damage team chances.

It may not. But it might. It just takes an injury to one of the others and suddenly he's facing a match defining defensive line out in a SF with 5 minutes to go and 2 points in it. Hitting your man 10 / 10 in training is utterly irrelevant - that's all about temperament and experience. Possibly drama queening but it could happen and surely the whole point of a squad is that contingencies have been properly covered. You really don't want to be taking players praying they're never called on.

 

[Which Tyler]

There's that, but also who's our back up 8 and when's the last time he actually played there?

vs All Blacks was it?

That's why Wilson should be starting at 8.

I'm inclined to agree that I want Wilson to get some gametime at 8 - though it may be more important that he gets game-time full stop. I'm certainly not strongly of the opinion that that need trumps Billy's need for gametime.

Surely Wilson played 8 for Newcastle this season at some stage - it's not like Daly or Watson who never play their England position for their club. Wilson may be mostly a 6, but he still plays 8 plenty.

 

[MarkyH]

But they don't always get it right and even the best science in the world can't guarantee - Mako was off the field after 15 mins with a problem on the same injury. Part of the reason one or two of us are kicking off about Binny is that he's proven to be injury prone and this really is a meaningless match in the bigger picture. Risk / reward trade off is heavily skewed.

I accept everyone needs the odd hit out. But this is pre RWC, not pre season. That's different. If you lose a player for 4 or 5 club matches at the start of a normal season there are plenty more games for them to play and influence outcomes. Lose one of our top players now for that time period and they could miss the whole RWC which would be personally terrible for them and could damage team chances.

It may not. But it might. It just takes an injury to one of the others and suddenly he's facing a match defining defensive line out in a SF with 5 minutes to go and 2 points in it. Hitting your man 10 / 10 in training is utterly irrelevant - that's all about temperament and experience. Possibly drama queening but it could happen and surely the whole point of a squad is that contingencies have been properly covered. You really don't want to be taking players praying they're never called on.

Of course they can't always get it right, but they are not going to get it wrong all the time. I'd rather use that science than just my guesswork as a fan. I'd trust in the medical experts rather than myself or any other fan just because we think he's going to get injured. I touched on it on the Tuilagi case, but Billys injuries were always different. You have to protect your injury, but by default of being out the game then you're not playing and testing other parts of your body. Being injury prone is a knock on from one injury. Not all players are the same, so yes, I would class him as injury prone, but his injury proneness comes from not playing games. When he's playing his body needs to keep playing. Unless its a freak game injury which I will accept can happen and he's the last player I want hurt, but I'd rather play him Vs Italy than have a 30 day break between games..

I accept its not similar to a club pre-season but surely we don't want players who aren't fit, and under-cooked ready for the big event. Some players have to play games. I'd suggest that Billy is more prone after 30 days without a game than he would be playing every game in the build up. Normally the AIs are the first internationals of the season for NH teams, after a preseason with their clubs and game time. That does not happen in WC year.

I've been through the squad lists, and we're no different to any other team in regards to our 3rd choice hooker. SA are lucky as Brits is their 3rd choice, hardly has caps but has bags of experience. Yes, Singleton could probably do with more game time, and George definitely doesn't need to play this weekend. I think most teams are praying that the 3rd choice hooker isn't call upon to be honest But in general I agree with your point. It's just no different to any other nation. I'm sure he will be on the bench Vs Tonga or USA though.

Good discussion tho Old Hooker, slight difference of opinions and I don't think yours are wrong at all either, I just see them differently. We both want England to do well at this tournament

 

[Gena_ZA]

After Italy beat Russia convincingly they are like the Ausies after one win ready to take on the world and claim the Bok match in the pool games they can take us
France shut them up nicely, England take them back to reality tonight

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Good discussion tho Old Hooker, slight difference of opinions and I don't think yours are wrong at all either, I just see them differently. We both want England to do well at this tournament

Life would be very dull if we all agreed and only had the Welsh to argue with.

I generally enjoy being a glass half empty merchant. But I will definitely be watching this one behind the sofa with everything crossed.

 

[spartan32]

Hopefully a fun and expansive game this evening. Interesting the views of game time v injury fear. I think the modern international player is nearly always at peak fitness and finely tuned physically. It's the mental stuff that separates the good from the great, and I believe that's what this game offers. A chance to continue to build a strong positive mental position for the team. To stretch their legs and talents and skill sets in a safe environment and remind themselves what they can do when they back their ability. It's no good having Billy V super fit physically, if his mind is not right, for example. Also treating players like they're made of glass, and could break at any moment, probably isn't good for their mental state either.

England have the skill, size, strength and fitness to win this World Cup. What they have lacked is the mental strength and consistently strong decision making on the pitch. When their minds click they produce some special stuff, and they will need their minds to click for 7 games in a row to win this thing. They managed 18 before so it can be done. They have to known that they can face down any problem, be it injury, game plan not working, yellow card etc. This game gIves them another chance to do just that. Mix it up, prove to themselves and the rest of the world that we have one of the most flexible and capable teams out there.

This is going to be the toughest WC ever, but England have just as much chance of lifting the trophy as the other top contenders. If they believe...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hopefully a fun and expansive game this evening. Interesting the views of game time v injury fear. I think the modern international player is nearly always at peak fitness and finely tuned physically. It's the mental stuff that separates the good from the great, and I believe that's what this game offers. A chance to continue to build a strong positive mental position for the team. To stretch their legs and talents and skill sets in a safe environment and remind themselves what they can do when they back their ability. It's no good having Billy V super fit physically, if his mind is not right, for example. Also treating players like they're made of glass, and could break at any moment, probably isn't good for their mental state either.

England have the skill, size, strength and fitness to win this World Cup. What they have lacked is the mental strength and consistently strong decision making on the pitch. When their minds click they produce some special stuff, and they will need their minds to click for 7 games in a row to win this thing. They managed 18 before so it can be done. They have to known that they can face down any problem, be it injury, game plan not working, yellow card etc. This game gIves them another chance to do just that. Mix it up, prove to themselves and the rest of the world that we have one of the most flexible and capable teams out there.

This is going to be the toughest WC ever, but England have just as much chance of lifting the trophy as the other top contenders. If they believe...

I agree about our mental strength weaknesses, but a likely romp against the weakest NH team won't tell us anything about that. There's a massive difference between being a flat track bully and being able to go to the well when the going gets tough.

We might have got a legit confidence boost in beating NZ or RSA, but with all due respect to them this is Italy and we'll be expected to clout them. It is what it is, but there's little upside for us. Good that the game's being held in Newcastle though.

As for treating players as if they're made of glass, if their track records say they are then yes we absolutely should. That's just sensible management. If Binny and Manu in particular are really key to our chances then we should do everything we can to maximise the odds of them being available for the crunch games.

 

[Scotty]

So jow close to a full strength squad are italy? No talk of that, have they rested some players or give game time to young players? On paper we win italys first team im just curious.

 

[MarkyH]

Haven't seen much mentioned of the Italy line up either but found it on the BBC website

Italy: Hayward; Bellini, Bisegni, Benvenuti, Padovani; Canna, Braley; Quaglio, Fabiani, Ferrari, Sisi, Budd (c), Negri, Steyn,Tuivaiti.

Replacements: Zani, Lovotti, Riccioni, Ruzza, Zanni, Mbanda, Palazzani, Allan

Looks like a bit of a mix and match team also. Braley from Gloucester is playing. Allan on bench. Tuiivati isn't or wasn't in the orignal RWC squad Italy announced. No Campagnaro or Polledri either.

Zanni on bench, no Parrisse. So not first choice back row or locks I would guess.

Third choice hooker, not all first choice props.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Haven't seen much mentioned of the Italy line up either but found it on the BBC website

Italy: Hayward; Bellini, Bisegni, Benvenuti, Padovani; Canna, Braley; Quaglio, Fabiani, Ferrari, Sisi, Budd (c), Negri, Steyn,Tuivaiti.

Replacements: Zani, Lovotti, Riccioni, Ruzza, Zanni, Mbanda, Palazzani, Allan

No Minozzi, Campagnaro, Polledri, Parisse, Ghiraldini… definitely not a 1st XV.

Apparently Eddie and O'Shea agreed beforehand to play this game with their full 31-man squads and rolling subs but World Rugby said no. Not really sure what to make of that, I can't imagine that either coach would really learn anything from it but if both agreed to do it there must have been some benefits to the idea.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

So jow close to a full strength squad are italy? No talk of that, have they rested some players or give game time to young players? On paper we win italys first team im just curious.

Italy: 15 Jayden Hayward, 14 Mattia Bellini, 13 Giulio Bisegni, 12 Tommaso Benvenuti, 11 Edoardo Padovani, 10 Carlo Canna, 9 Callum Braley, 8 Jimmy Tuivaiti, 7 Abraham Steyn, 6 Sebastian Negri, 5 Dean Budd (c), 4 David Sisi, 3 Simone Ferrari, 2 Oliviero Fabiani, 1 Nicola Quaglio
Replacements: 16 Federico Zani, 17 Andrea Lovotti, 18 Marco Riccioni, 19 Federico Ruzza, 20 Alessandro Zanni, 21 Maxime Mbanda, 22 Guglielmo Palazzani, 23 Tommaso Allan

Zanni is on the bench, Parisse isn't even in the 23. No Campagnaro either, who is one of their most dynamic backs. Tomasso Allan played flyhalf last time out against France but is at 23 for this one. Not sure where the hooker Ghiraldini has got to, he wasn't in the 23 last week either, which is a shame, he's a good player. Overall, I'd say it's a mix-and-match side, but to be honest, I don't know who some of these names are, so they could be 50-cap veterans or they could be making their debut. Any Italians on this board?

 

[MarkyH]

England can play a mix and match and look strong, and would still be clear favorites. This Italy line up doesn't have any of their talisman, or main players and wouldn't be a a line up they could get away with in many games.

I may be optimistic most the time, but I'm never one to predict easy wins. However, I think England by 50 #arrogant

 

[Reiser99]

Italy: 15 Jayden Hayward, 14 Mattia Bellini, 13 Giulio Bisegni, 12 Tommaso Benvenuti, 11 Edoardo Padovani, 10 Carlo Canna, 9 Callum Braley, 8 Jimmy Tuivaiti, 7 Abraham Steyn, 6 Sebastian Negri, 5 Dean Budd (c), 4 David Sisi, 3 Simone Ferrari, 2 Oliviero Fabiani, 1 Nicola Quaglio
Replacements: 16 Federico Zani, 17 Andrea Lovotti, 18 Marco Riccioni, 19 Federico Ruzza, 20 Alessandro Zanni, 21 Maxime Mbanda, 22 Guglielmo Palazzani, 23 Tommaso Allan

Zanni is on the bench, Parisse isn't even in the 23. No Campagnaro either, who is one of their most dynamic backs. Tomasso Allan played flyhalf last time out against France but is at 23 for this one. Not sure where the hooker Ghiraldini has got to, he wasn't in the 23 last week either, which is a shame, he's a good player. Overall, I'd say it's a mix-and-match side, but to be honest, I don't know who some of these names are, so they could be 50-cap veterans or they could be making their debut. Any Italians on this board?

Wikipedia always helps.

Hayward: 18 caps
Bellini: 18 caps
Bisegni: 12 caps
Benvenuti: 57 caps (Most)
Padovani: 21 caps
Canna: 34 caps
Braley: 2 caps
Tuivaiti: 4 caps
Steyn: 31 caps
Negri: 18 caps
Budd: 21 caps
Sisi: 6 caps
Ferrari: 23 caps
Fabiani: 8 caps
Quaglio: 10 caps

So overall relatively inexperienced. Only Alessandro Zanni has over 50 caps on the bench at 113 and Allen has 49 caps. No debuts though. Definitely looks second string for me. I think Hayward, Padovani, Steyn, Negri, Budd and Sisi could be called first team. Not sure on the props as their selection hasn't been hugely consistent.

 

[Scotty]

So basicly a tier 2 nation with some main players missing and some benched.

We have a strong pack and an experimental 12 13 14. But all in all a stong squad that shouldnt have any troubles putting a big score down here (on paper obv)