Samoa is the most improved International team!

[Le_Manu]

There isn't a single player in the current NZ team that was born in the PIs?

On the other hand, Samoa is basically half made up of people born in NZ?

I mean, I don't mind residency rules and everything, but it's a bit of an odd argument to pick...

OK where do I start?

So 1st genration Kiwi born Samoans are already being stripped of their Samoan heritage. You are saying they are not Samoan. We are arguing about two things here. You are saying, just because they were born in NZ it makes them Kiwi...what about where there parents are from, and there significant culture in their homes. I bet that if you visit any of these Samoan AB's homes you would find that their culture is very much Samoan. They would say grace in Samoan, they would speek Samoan, they would eat and prepare Samoan food. But in your eyes they are Kiwi. What a joke...

What you might not understand is Samoans, no matter where they are born, are proud of their culture/ heritage!

Explain this to me. I have played rugby in N.Z all my life and countless of times I get told by an opposing player or someone watching the game to "Go back to where you come from". I guess im not from NZ then.
Even NZ born Samoans get told this...dont go parading that those players are Kiwis. Yes, they grew up in the Kiwi rugby scene but they are Samoans, Tongans, Fijians!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

OK where do I start?

So 1st genration Kiwi born Samoans are already being stripped of their Samoan heritage. You are saying they are not Samoan. We are arguing about two things here. You are saying, just because they were born in NZ it makes them Kiwi...what about where there parents are from, and there significant culture in their homes. I bet that if you visit any of these Samoan AB's homes you would find that their culture is very much Samoan. They would say grace in Samoan, they would speek Samoan, they would eat and prepare Samoan food. But in your eyes they are Kiwi. What a joke...

What you might not understand is Samoans, no matter where they are born, are proud of their culture/ heritage!

Explain this to me. I have played rugby in N.Z all my life and countless of times I get told by an opposing player or someone watching the game to "Go back to where you come from". I guess im not from NZ then.
Even NZ born Samoans get told this...dont go parading that those players are Kiwis. Yes, they grew up in the Kiwi rugby scene but they are Samoans, Tongans, Fijians!

So why don't they choose to play for Samoa then...? Generally it's a lot easier to make the Samoan team than the NZ team, so they MUST BE CHOOSING to play for New Zealand. Who are we to tell them they can't do that?

 

[Draggs]

OK where do I start?

So 1st genration Kiwi born Samoans are already being stripped of their Samoan heritage. You are saying they are not Samoan. We are arguing about two things here. You are saying, just because they were born in NZ it makes them Kiwi...what about where there parents are from, and there significant culture in their homes. I bet that if you visit any of these Samoan AB's homes you would find that their culture is very much Samoan. They would say grace in Samoan, they would speek Samoan, they would eat and prepare Samoan food. But in your eyes they are Kiwi. What a joke...

What you might not understand is Samoans, no matter where they are born, are proud of their culture/ heritage!

Explain this to me. I have played rugby in N.Z all my life and countless of times I get told by an opposing player or someone watching the game to "Go back to where you come from". I guess im not from NZ then.
Even NZ born Samoans get told this...dont go parading that those players are Kiwis. Yes, they grew up in the Kiwi rugby scene but they are Samoans, Tongans, Fijians!

That is a huge generalisation that can be applied anywhere.
I know plenty who support their families heritage in rugby, and just as many who support the land of their birth.

 

[Le_Manu]

Le_Manu, I'll explain why we get a bit annoyed when NZ are accused of poaching Islanders and doing nothing for the Islands.

1) Eight All Blacks (in 100 years) were born in Fiji. I think it's pretty safe to assume that more Fiji rugby players were born in New Zealand than the other way round. Really, the Fijians are bigger poachers than the All Blacks are.

2) Take Samoa as a case in point, we'll use Paul Williams as an example. Williams was born and bred in New Zealand - all of his training comes from our resources. NZ has invested a truck load of time in him, to the point where he made the New Zealand training squad. Now he plays for Samoa. NZ is heavily investing in the Islands by producing Island players constantly. Paul Williams would be no where near the player he is today if it weren't for New Zealand. There are a huge number of cases like this. Even players born in the Islands come to New Zealand and get a good rugby education and end up playing for their home Island. This doesn't annoy me - far from it! It's great that the Islands get this huge boost. What annoys me is when people accuse NZ of poaching players, when in reality it is the complete opposite. If it weren't for New Zealand, Samoa and the likes would not be anywhere near as good as they are today.

3) I too think it's a bit disappointing that NZ did not play Fiji for their centenary. That being said, there's no realistic way the game could've been played at this point in the year - it would have to be at the end of the year. The calendar is full at the moment, and has been for some time. Players would be completely burnt out if we were to throw an extra game on at the end of the Rugby Championship. The Fiji game could've potentially been played instead of the Japanese game, before the end of year tour. That being said, I think Japan will benefit hugely from having the All Blacks tour their (ever so briefly) as it will boost the game a bit for the 2019 World Cup. It's not like NZ is just grabbing money, they are helping the rugby community too - just not the particular country you think they should be helping (which is a completely fair view to take, I don't necessarily disagree with it!).

While your suggestions that we should be giving Samoa more time is completely reasonable, and the IRB DO need to do something about getting more Tier 1 games for Samoa, your poaching claim is unfounded (hopefully you're a bit more educated on the matter now!), and to suggest that NZ doesn't do much for the Island nations is simply incorrect. It's good to have another supporter of the Island nations here on the Forum though, so enjoy yourself! Just don't go suggest NZ are poachers

EDIT: Just had a look at the Samoan team for the match against South Africa coming up. Of the starting XV, Williams, Leota, Su'a, Lam, Leo, Paulo, Johnston and Avei were all born in NZ, with a number of them spending a lot of time with NZ provincial and Super Rugby teams. The numbers speak for themselves, really.

All your points are valid, and your right, NZ Rugby has done a lot for Samoan rugby. I am sure the players and their families have appreciated the opportunity that NZ rugby have given them. It is our way out! Rugby that is. It is a way to make a living and to look after our families. For this we are very grateful.

and you are right...there is so much more IRB,AB's and Australia can do for the islands e.g. play a test match in the Islands,
But this is the professional era and I don't think this will ever happen.

I do get upset when people claim that the Samoan team is made up of Kiwis...simply because, culturally they are not. They might have been born in N.Z but their roots are firmly in the Islands! and I am confident this is the case for all players as I know how Samoan culture and indeed other Island cultures are proud of their own cultures.

Its a bit like Kiwis claiming Russle Crowe or other Kiwis who have grown up overseas...etc

Anyway thank you for your opinion.

 

[Feicarsinn]

All your points are valid, and your right, NZ Rugby has done a lot for Samoan rugby. I am sure the players and their families have appreciated the opportunity that NZ rugby have given them. It is our way out! Rugby that is. It is a way to make a living and to look after our families. For this we are very grateful.

and you are right...there is so much more IRB,AB's and Australia can do for the islands e.g. play a test match in the Islands,
But this is the professional era and I don't think this will ever happen.

I do get upset when people claim that the Samoan team is made up of Kiwis...simply because, culturally they are not. They might have been born in N.Z but their roots are firmly in the Islands! and I am confident this is the case for all players as I know how Samoan culture and indeed other Island cultures are proud of their own cultures.

Its a bit like Kiwis claiming Russle Crowe or other Kiwis who have grown up overseas...etc

Anyway thank you for your opinion.

Perhaps not, but there's no denying that Samoa wouldn't be anywhere near the side they are at the moment if an awful lot of their players didn't go up through the New Zealand system. In terms of net gain the Island nations get a lot more out of New Zealand than the other way around.

 

[Le_Manu]

So why don't they choose to play for Samoa then...? Generally it's a lot easier to make the Samoan team than the NZ team, so they MUST BE CHOOSING to play for New Zealand. Who are we to tell them they can't do that?

Heres a fact. You get very little money playing for Samoa and in fact players in the last RWC paid for their own flights and some accommodation.

A lot of Island players have an obligation to provide for their families, and I'm not just talking about their wife and kids. I'm talking about their Mum, Dad, Uncle, Aunties and cousins etc. This is a big part of the decision making process. I am a teacher at on of NZ most prestigious rugby schools and the main bread winner in the family. I am obliged to share my wealth around. Call it an island thing, but its how we were bought up!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

All your points are valid, and your right, NZ Rugby has done a lot for Samoan rugby. I am sure the players and their families have appreciated the opportunity that NZ rugby have given them. It is our way out! Rugby that is. It is a way to make a living and to look after our families. For this we are very grateful.

and you are right...there is so much more IRB,AB's and Australia can do for the islands e.g. play a test match in the Islands,
But this is the professional era and I don't think this will ever happen.

I do get upset when people claim that the Samoan team is made up of Kiwis...simply because, culturally they are not. They might have been born in N.Z but their roots are firmly in the Islands! and I am confident this is the case for all players as I know how Samoan culture and indeed other Island cultures are proud of their own cultures.

Its a bit like Kiwis claiming Russle Crowe or other Kiwis who have grown up overseas...etc

Anyway thank you for your opinion.

From a financial point of view this just doesn't make much sense. A better idea would be to play the game at Harbour Stadium and give the proceeds to the Island team. There's obviously a huge Island population in Auckland, so the stadium would sell out and the Island team would still make a lot of money - a lot more in fact!

 

[j'nuh]

OK where do I start?

So 1st genration Kiwi born Samoans are already being stripped of their Samoan heritage. You are saying they are not Samoan. We are arguing about two things here. You are saying, just because they were born in NZ it makes them Kiwi...what about where there parents are from, and there significant culture in their homes. I bet that if you visit any of these Samoan AB's homes you would find that their culture is very much Samoan. They would say grace in Samoan, they would speek Samoan, they would eat and prepare Samoan food. But in your eyes they are Kiwi. What a joke...

What you might not understand is Samoans, no matter where they are born, are proud of their culture/ heritage!

Explain this to me. I have played rugby in N.Z all my life and countless of times I get told by an opposing player or someone watching the game to "Go back to where you come from". I guess im not from NZ then.
Even NZ born Samoans get told this...dont go parading that those players are Kiwis. Yes, they grew up in the Kiwi rugby scene but they are Samoans, Tongans, Fijians!

Players choosing of their own volition to play for the nation they were born in is poaching?

I just call it playing for your country...

 

[Le_Manu]

Perhaps not, but there's no denying that Samoa wouldn't be anywhere near the side they are at the moment if an awful lot of their players didn't go up through the New Zealand system. In terms of net gain the Island nations get a lot more out of New Zealand than the other way around.

Point taken...but Island players have done their bit for NZ rugby too. Not to say NZ rugby needed help...im talking appealing to the masses and also the fact that AB's have had countless of Islanders playing for them over the last 10-20 years! AB's are getting the share too.

and have you seen how many Island boys play 1st XV rugby in NZ. It a massive number!

 

[Le_Manu]

Poachers? Nah.


Spear tackling thugs? Now, you could have a point there.

Hmmm ok mate!

 

[Le_Manu]

From a financial point of view this just doesn't make much sense. A better idea would be to play the game at Harbour Stadium and give the proceeds to the Island team. There's obviously a huge Island population in Auckland, so the stadium would sell out and the Island team would still make a lot of money - a lot more in fact!

Totally agree...but no room for Island nations in the next 3-4years? Anyway, I am just happy the boys in Blue are performing so well....must be all the Kiwis ay hahah

 

[Le_Manu]

Thirteen Samoan-born All Blacks.
I am willing to bet that there have been hat many kiwis in a single Samoan 22. (At least that many in the 2011 RWC squad).

Now the All Black are really poaching from the ockers!

They are not Kiwi's mate. They grew up in New Zealand but are Samoans...

I always say... BLOOD IS THICKER THAN A STAMP ON A PASSPORT

Do you get my point yet?

 

[nickdnz]

They are not Kiwi's mate. They grew up in New Zealand but are Samoans...

I always say... BLOOD IS THICKER THAN A STAMP ON A PASSPORT

Do you get my point yet?

Says you. I have Samoan mates, some who were born in Samoa - who consider themselves New Zealanders and have said so. I guess you speak for them as well?

You seem to think that a person of Samoan heritage can never feel his home is somewhere else, even if he has never been there.

 

[Le_Manu]

Says you. I have Samoan mates, some who were born in Samoa - who consider themselves New Zealanders and have said so. I guess you speak for them as well?

You seem to think that a person of Samoan heritage can never feel his home is somewhere else, even if he has never been there.

You are missing the point.
So its ok for Kiwis to point fingers at a team and say THEY ARE ALL MADE UP OF KIWIS...but I cant say they are Samoans not Kiwis...

 

[donmcdazzle]

You are missing the point.
So its ok for Kiwis to point fingers at a team and say THEY ARE ALL MADE UP OF KIWIS...but I cant say they are Samoans not Kiwis...

You are basically saying that guys born in NZ and playing for NZ aren't NZers? Strange case to make. I think you have acknowledged you are wrong and Samoa and the other islands benefit a huge amount from NZ rather than the other way around. What would happen to Samoan rugby if they couldn't pick players that have been developed in the NZ rugby system? It'd be knackered pretty quickly. However if you banned all NZ born people with two parents born in Samoa (you seem to be claiming that these guys aren't really kiwis) from playing for the ABs I think we would still be fine.

 

[dasNdanger]

They are not Kiwi's mate. They grew up in New Zealand but are Samoans...

I always say... BLOOD IS THICKER THAN A STAMP ON A PASSPORT

Do you get my point yet?

That doesn't always hold true.

For instance, as an American I have several ancestries (Scottish, German, Danish, andamessofotherstuff) and while I have a certain amount of pride in those ethnicities, I still consider myself American.

It may depend on how many generations a person has lived in a country. Are they Samoan by blood, but have been in NZ for a couple generations or are they first gen kiwis? That often determines which country a person identifies with, regardless of their ancestry.

That said, I can understand why players would pick NZ over Samoa or Figi, especially in the past. More than anything it is a smart career move. More chance of recognition with the ABS, which brings with it a better chance of advancement and most likely more pay. However, now that Samoa is growing their team I'm sure that they will become quite a tempting choice for Samoans living in other countries. Give it time...the ABs will not forever reign at the top of the pile.


das

 

[donmcdazzle]

That doesn't always hold true.

For instance, as an American I have several ancestries (Scottish, German, Danish, andamessofotherstuff) and while I have a certain amount of pride in those ethnicities, I still consider myself American.

It may depend on how many generations a person has lived in a country. Are they Samoan by blood, but have been in NZ for a couple generations or are they first gen kiwis? That often determines which country a person identifies with, regardless of their ancestry.

That said, I can understand why players would pick NZ over Samoa or Figi, especially in the past. More than anything it is a smart career move. More chance of recognition with the ABS, which brings with it a better chance of advancement and most likely more pay. However, now that Samoa is growing their team I'm sure that they will become quite a tempting choice for Samoans living in other countries. Give it time...the ABs will not forever reign at the top of the pile.


das

What does that mean? How many generations do you need to be in a certain country for your blood to be considered from there? My lineage has only been in NZ for a couple of generations but I consider myself only a NZer. I have ancestors from Scotland and Ireland, but I would say I'm a 'full blooded' NZer. But if my ancestors came from Samoa are you saying I wouldn't be a full blooded NZer anymore? Such a pointless weird argument.

 

[canadafan]

Agree donmcdazzle, I was born in NZ, most of my extended family live in NZ. Also, I have a NZ passport but I would consider myself a Canadian because I have lived most of my life in Canada.

 

[Draggs]

They are not Kiwi's mate. They grew up in New Zealand but are Samoans...

I always say... BLOOD IS THICKER THAN A STAMP ON A PASSPORT

Do you get my point yet?

Oh yes, but it is completely wrong.
I know plenty of British/Kiwi/Aus ex-pats. Most of their children who grow up in Canada/US become a product of their new country. Just because they are of Samoan descent doesn't mean that they feel ties. Are we going to hear the banging of the Samoa is the greatest drum again? What about the Samoans who grew up in NZ and became ABs?

 

[dasNdanger]

What does that mean? How many generations do you need to be in a certain country for your blood to be considered from there? My lineage has only been in NZ for a couple of generations but I consider myself only a NZer. I have ancestors from Scotland and Ireland, but I would say I'm a 'full blooded' NZer. But if my ancestors came from Samoa are you saying I wouldn't be a full blooded NZer anymore? Such a pointless weird argument.

Ya know, it may be an 'American' thing. Many Americans - regardless of how long their families have been in this country - don't consider themselves American by blood. Many distinguish themselves by ancestry - African-American, Jewish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, Chinese-American, etc. Not everyone uses those labels, of course, but for many US Amercans if asked what their ethnicity was they would not say 'American', but would tell you their European, Asian, African, or Latino background. Even with my family having lived here for at least 3 generations, I don't consider myself a 'full-blooded' American. For the most part the only ones who are considered such are Native Americans.

So (hypothetically), for some Americans, given the choice to play for America or to play for the country their ancestors came from, they may quickly choose the latter depending on whether their ethnic pride is stronger than their nationalistic pride.


das