Samoa is the most improved International team!

[Shaggy]

I was married to a Samoan, just about all of the people I interacted with outside of work were Samoans or Tongans ... the Island culture was very prominent in the families, but just about all of them considered themselves both Samoan or Tongan, and New Zealanders ... we supported all of these teams when they played.

I think it's great that players with Samoan (or any other heritage), that are born in New Zealand (or another country), get to choose for themselves, which country they play for, but I think it's unreasonable thinking to try to force a player to play for their country of birth or country of heritage ... I think the IRB has almost got it right (maybe some tweaking of the eligibility rules), by allowing the player to choose, but only allowing players to play for one nation.

... As for the players not getting paid much to play for the likes of Samoa etc, hopefully the easier access to Europe and its clubs, the access to New Zealand professional teams without having to be eligible to play for the All Blacks, and the access to the money that the Japanese clubs, goes some way to releaving the financial burden on the players

 

[Le_Manu]

I was married to a Samoan, just about all of the people I interacted with outside of work were Samoans or Tongans ... the Island culture was very prominent in the families, but just about all of them considered themselves both Samoan or Tongan, and New Zealanders ... we supported all of these teams when they played.

I think it's great that players with Samoan (or any other heritage), that are born in New Zealand (or another country), get to choose for themselves, which country they play for, but I think it's unreasonable thinking to try to force a player to play for their country of birth or country of heritage ... I think the IRB has almost got it right (maybe some tweaking of the eligibility rules), by allowing the player to choose, but only allowing players to play for one nation.

... As for the players not getting paid much to play for the likes of Samoa etc, hopefully the easier access to Europe and its clubs, the access to New Zealand professional teams without having to be eligible to play for the All Blacks, and the access to the money that the Japanese clubs, goes some way to releaving the financial burden on the players

Thank you for your points.

I love supporting the Island brothers playing for the AB's. You go and visit Samoa, and their villages support them too. I remember driving past a village in Samoa and on the road sign it said "This is Rodney So'oialo's village" hahah.

I am not saying that they should play for their country of birth and I celebrate the fact that because Samoa is playing well internationally of late (exactly what this thread is about) that the decision to play for Samoa is more inviting.

I agree totally with your point about Euro clubs helping out. I think the fact that more and more Samoans playing in Europe eliminates the AB's factor. In fact in French clubs, players of Island decent are considered local players and not international. In NZ it is different. Island players sign a contract that states they have to make themselves available for the AB's...its a carrot they dangle to entice players to sign up...knowing all well that they have the cultural obligation of providing for their families...There are more and more players going to Europe and I support that because they don't get caught up in the AB web.

 

[Le_Manu]

Oh yes, but it is completely wrong.
I know plenty of British/Kiwi/Aus ex-pats. Most of their children who grow up in Canada/US become a product of their new country. Just because they are of Samoan descent doesn't mean that they feel ties. Are we going to hear the banging of the Samoa is the greatest drum again? What about the Samoans who grew up in NZ and became ABs?

Just to give you a bit of history.

The bulk of Islanders who immigrated to NZ came around the 60's and 70's looking for jobs and better opportunities. So for most Islanders, our roots are still fresh and this is because our parents brought us up this way. We are first/second generation NZders but a lot hold true to our island culture.

Also the reason why British/Kiwi/Aus find it easier to become "products of their new country" is because their cultures are very similar (e.g Language/food/customs etc)

Islanders are totally different...hence why I can say with confidence that it ****** me off to suggest players playing for Samoa are kiwi's....

I hope this helps

 

[nickdnz]

What does that mean? How many generations do you need to be in a certain country for your blood to be considered from there? My lineage has only been in NZ for a couple of generations but I consider myself only a NZer. I have ancestors from Scotland and Ireland, but I would say I'm a 'full blooded' NZer. But if my ancestors came from Samoa are you saying I wouldn't be a full blooded NZer anymore? Such a pointless weird argument.

This is very much my view as well. Both sets of my grandparents were born in England - as was my father. Now I don't think of myself as 'English'. I was born in New Zealand. Nationality is in fact a cultural construction - as is ethnicity. There is no 'scientific' way of deviding the world into who belongs where, and nor should there be. It should be up to the individual to chose where they fit. People make claims like 'they only play there for money' - which is usually baseless, but the reality is the reason anyone adopts a country that they weren't born in (in the few exceptions where players weren't born in NZ - and they usually are) is because they percieve that country as good for them. No one would ever go anywhere if they didn't think anywhere was better than where they were.

O We are arguing about two things here. You are saying, just because they were born in NZ it makes them Kiwi...what about where there parents are from, and there significant culture in their homes. I bet that if you visit any of these Samoan AB's homes you would find that their culture is very much Samoan. They would say grace in Samoan, they would speek Samoan, they would eat and prepare Samoan food. But in your eyes they are Kiwi. What a joke...

What you might not understand is Samoans, no matter where they are born, are proud of their culture/ heritage!

Explain this to me. I have played rugby in N.Z all my life and countless of times I get told by an opposing player or someone watching the game to "Go back to where you come from". I guess im not from NZ then.
Even NZ born Samoans get told this...dont go parading that those players are Kiwis. Yes, they grew up in the Kiwi rugby scene but they are Samoans, Tongans, Fijians!

Also to say they are Samoan and not Kiwi's - that's like saying no one is ever influenced or effected by the culture they live in. I'm sure there are examples of idiots saying racist stuff, but to think that's a reflection of the entire populations view points is absurd, especially when most of the time on an NZ rugby field a quater if not much more are Pacific Islander's of origin. People say sh*t in rugby games - I'd have a very low opinion of myself if I took what the opposition sometimes say to me at face value.

I know plenty of people with Somoan heritage who can't speak any Samoan at all - never mind around the house. You assume that everyone identifies with Samoa as you may do - but these are sweeping generalisations which rugby players who play for New Zealand don't seem to agree with.

 

[Le_Manu]

Hi team....

I think I have opened up a can of something delightful lol

But just getting back to the point of this thread...

Samoa is the most improved International rugby team....

I know they will give SA a good fight. It will be a great game...

Best of luck to both teams!

What are your predictions?

 

[nickdnz]

Hi team....
I think I have opened up a can of something delightful lol
But just getting back to the point of this thread...
Samoa is the most improved International rugby team....
I know they will give SA a good fight. It will be a great game...

Best of luck to both teams!

What are your predictions?

I think it will be very close. I think Samoa have a chance of winning it, but it all depends if South Africa click.

I'm not sold on a few SA players especially JJ Englebrecht - who has killed more tries than he's scored so far. If they play like the did against Scotland then Samoa is in with a good chance.

 

[Le_Manu]

I know plenty of people with Somoan heritage who can't speak any Samoan at all - never mind around the house. You assume that everyone identifies with Samoa as you may do - but these are sweeping generalisations which rugby players who play for New Zealand don't seem to agree with.

I'll see your "plenty of Samoans" and raise you the "plenty of Samoans" I know... I bet I hang out with a lot more Samoans than you

I agree. A close game but I have Blue winning a tight and physical encounter

It will depend on the style SA plays. We all know Samoa will bring the physical and the speed...
SA will possibly play a 10man game (but making sure their kicks go out)
They can choose to fight fire with fire but Samoa are very confident at the moment and this might not be the best way for SA

Besides the Lions game, this is the game of the weekend for me
Warriors have a bye too so im 15 man code this weekend...

 

[nickdnz]

I'll see your "plenty of Samoans" and raise you the "plenty of Samoans" I know... I bet I hang out with a lot more Samoans than you

Maybe. But I'm not being so presumptuous to talk on behalf of all people with Samoan heritage - I'm only talking about the people who I am friends with, play rugby with etc who have shared with me their particular views. And those examples are really all I need to make my point that not all feel the way you do, and so it is conceivable that the people of Samoan heritage who play for the All Blacks - relate more closely to the people I seem to know than the ones you do.

 

[Le_Manu]

You are basically saying that guys born in NZ and playing for NZ aren't NZers? Strange case to make. I think you have acknowledged you are wrong and Samoa and the other islands benefit a huge amount from NZ rather than the other way around. What would happen to Samoan rugby if they couldn't pick players that have been developed in the NZ rugby system? It'd be knackered pretty quickly. However if you banned all NZ born people with two parents born in Samoa (you seem to be claiming that these guys aren't really kiwis) from playing for the ABs I think we would still be fine.

Read my other posts...I've already expressed my gratefulness for the NZ rugby...

I am just upset at people saying "their are heaps of kiwis in the Samoan team"
...but I cant say that their are heaps of Islanders playing for the AB's!

 

[nickdnz]

Read my other posts...I've already expressed my gratefulness for the NZ rugby...

I am just upset at people saying "their are heaps of kiwis in the Samoan team"
...but I cant say that their are heaps of Islanders playing for the AB's!

...you're the one who brought it up.

A change in attitudes is needed, I agree yoe91. This should start from the top. IRB recognising that we are a tier 1 team and giving us, like this international season, more games with tier 1 nations. The All Blacks are apparently booked out for the next 3-4 years they say and declined an invitation from Fiji to play them to celebrate 100 years of fijian rugby. Pretty rude considering they poach the best Fijian players! Its attitudes like this that need to change.

The point people are making as that for every example of poaching you can name the All Blacks have done - by the same criteria Samoa has done tenfold. You then changed the criteria that a person who was born in NZ but has Samoan heritage can't be poached - as a they are all Samoans anyway.

 

[Le_Manu]

...you're the one who brought it up.



The point people are making as that for every example of poaching you can name the All Blacks have done - by the same criteria Samoa has done tenfold. You then changed the criteria that a person who was born in NZ but has Samoan heritage can't be poached - as a they are all Samoans anyway.

Poaching starts well before the AB's...have a look at the first XV around the country and tell me how many Islanders you see? How many are picked up in the islands, South Auckland...etc

Anyway, all your opinions I have taken into account. Thanks for your input

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That doesn't always hold true.

For instance, as an American I have several ancestries (Scottish, German, Danish, andamessofotherstuff) and while I have a certain amount of pride in those ethnicities, I still consider myself American.

It may depend on how many generations a person has lived in a country. Are they Samoan by blood, but have been in NZ for a couple generations or are they first gen kiwis? That often determines which country a person identifies with, regardless of their ancestry.

That said, I can understand why players would pick NZ over Samoa or Figi, especially in the past. More than anything it is a smart career move. More chance of recognition with the ABS, which brings with it a better chance of advancement and most likely more pay. However, now that Samoa is growing their team I'm sure that they will become quite a tempting choice for Samoans living in other countries. Give it time...the ABs will not forever reign at the top of the pile.


das

Nor have they; the Springbok reigned supreme prior to professionalism.

 

[Le_Manu]

Nor have they; the Springbok reigned supreme prior to professionalism.

Hehehe your gonna take some sting off me now...I hope you're ready...these Kiwis know 'everything' about rugby

 

[Howzy]

On a positive note I've just purchased a Samoan shirt from Lovell rugby

 

[Le_Manu]

On a positive note I've just purchased a Samoan shirt from Lovell rugby

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Hehehe your gonna take some sting off me now...I hope you're ready...these Kiwis know 'everything' about rugby

LOL, we can back each other up a bit, Boet!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think South Africa will win by a good 10-20 points.

Samoa has the ability to deal with the lower tier 1 teams (Ireland, Wales, Italy etc.) but when it comes to the big three (South Africa, New Zealand and England) I think they are still a long way off, to be perfectly honest. The major difference between the other groups of teams is consistency.

Though I'd love nothing more than to see Samoa win.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Hehehe your gonna take some sting off me now...I hope you're ready...these Kiwis know 'everything' about rugby

I love the Samoan kit. Might because because it's my favorite shade of my favourite colour.

 

[Howzy]

How much would u pay in Samoa for an authentic Samoan rugby shirt?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think South Africa will win by a good 10-20 points.

Samoa has the ability to deal with the lower tier 1 teams (Ireland, Wales, Italy etc.) but when it comes to the big three (South Africa, New Zealand and England) I think they are still a long way off, to be perfectly honest. The major difference between the other groups of teams is consistency.

Though I'd love nothing more than to see Samoa win.

I hope you are right but ATM we aren't all that settled and consistant. The guys with the caps in our squad aren't the better ones (apart from Habs and Bismarck on the bench) and the rest are still new to test rugby while we have a lot of injury concerns ATM to boot to both experienced campaigners and form newbies; JPP, Goosen, Hougaard, Vermaak, Vermeulen, Bekker, Botha, F Steyn, Taute with Alberts still a question mark and Bissie only last week coming back. Even though we are at home I doubt Samoa will have a better chance at toppling us in the forseeable future than now.