Samoa is the most improved International team!

[psychic duck]

You mean Paul Williams son of the very first Samoan to play for the All Blacks (Bryan Williams) and Kane Thompson whos Mum is Samoan...

Tell me how is Manu Tuilagi English and dont you have a Tobgan No8....he's the brownest Welshman iI've ever see

Bryan Williams another NZ born and raised player ....

Paul and Gavin Williams are both playing for Samoa on the grandparent rule from Bryan's parents.

So every single person who is eligible for Samoa, even if it is by grandparent rule or they only have one parent from there means they are Samoan and are poaches if New Zealand pick them?

By that logic then Wales should have kicked up a fuss about New Zealand picking Welsh eligible Aled de Malmanche. Scotland should have kicked up a fuss about New Zealand picking Scottish eligible Richie McCaw.

Manu Tuilagi and Toby Faletau both were born and raised in the UK since they were kids. Faletau speaks with a Welsh accent. To say nationality is based on race is a very BNP thing to say.

Thank you mate! you are right. Both sides have valid points but please don't say that Samoan team is made up of 13 NZders (psychic duck)

I didn't say that. I said the Samoan team to face South Africa this weekend has 15 New Zealand born players in the 23 man squad with 10 in the starting lineup. This is fact.

 

[Howzy]

Thank you mate! you are right. Both sides have valid points but please don't say that Samoan team is made up of 13 NZders (psychic duck)

I've heard somewhere that Manu tuilagi is the only brother to play for England as he was born in this country and is registered as a UK citerzan where as Henry or alesanna arnt. Also I think you talking about Toby faletau

 

[nickdnz]

Why is it you Kiwi's get worked up over the poaching accusations? Guilty conscience?

Irony is that kiwis get patriotic when it is other nations taking their talent...e.g Australian league signing up the 'kiwi' brothers to switch alliance...but when its NZ being accused, heck everyone cries murder. Have a look at the Black Caps for instance, a lot of which are South Africans and Australians. The same way the AB's over the past 20 years have had countless amount of Pacific Islanders playing for them.

I am merely showing the same passion for my country, and unfortunately Samoa is a very small country...but by heck we produce some good players, no matter where they learnt their craft. Even USA is getting in on the act. Did you know that a child with Samoa blood has 40% higher chance of making the NFL than any other nationality in America. They call American Samoa, football island.

So what if they came up through the NZ system...so have the Islanders who are coming through in the Aussie system...and in the English and French systems. What is blatantly obvious is that amount of talented Pacific Island rugby players there are out there, and for me...THAT MAKES ME DAMN PROUD TO BE P.I
Peace

Not guilty contience at all. Annoyed someone claims a falsehood about kiwis. If I made same ignorent claims about Samoa I'm sure you'd get annoyed. As it is you have the mentality that you can say one thing - but no one should say the other. I'm glad your proud to be Samoan and a Pacific Islander. But you seem to show no appreciation for the work and development that other nations do in producing great athletes - who happen to be of Pacific Island origins. And you deny anyone of PI origins to ever feel their home is New Zealand - which I think is a particularly harmful mentality.

You are wrong... There are 23 Samoans in the 23 to face South Africa...and 15 in the starting line up

Just because they were not born in Samoa doesn't mean they are not Samoan...13 Samoan born players who have played for the AB's most of which were in the last 20 years. Thats a big number and thats not even counting the New Zealand born Samoans

What I love is that if a player is born in Samoa and play for the All Blacks they are Samoan. If a New Zealand born player plays for Samoa they are Samoan. I guess everyone is Samoan. There were 15 New Zealand born players in the Samoan squad - more than in the entire history of the All Blacks.

Just repeating myself now. I will say one last thing. Enough with the double posts. Edit your posts to add what you want to say. The mods have been merging your posts together a lot now - so when they are not edited and there is two in a row, they will be deleted.

 

[Le_Manu]

I've heard somewhere that Manu tuilagi is the only brother to play for England as he was born in this country and is registered as a UK citerzan where as Henry or alesanna arnt. Also I think you talking about Toby faletau

Manu Samoa Tuilagi (His full name) was born in Fogapoa, Samoa, and yes Faletau is his name...Thanks

 

[Howzy]

Manu Samoa Tuilagi (His full name) was born in Fogapoa, Samoa, and yes Faletau is his name...Thanks

Ah right I see so does he come under the 5 or 10 year rule which means if they have lived in that country for so long they can play for that national team ?

 

[Le_Manu]

Ah right I see so does he come under the 5 or 10 year rule which means if they have lived in that country for so long they can play for that national team ?

Yes. He played for U19 England too

 

[Howzy]

So what's brad Barretts excuse ?

 

[ratsapprentice]

So what's brad Barretts excuse ?

UK Passport since birth.

 

[Howzy]

So I take it he had some sort of grandparent who was South African ? As I remember brad Barrett and that other guy (I think bakkies Botha, I maybe wrong) where know as the outcasts of South African rugby as they wernt picked so they went else where.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So I take it he had some sort of grandparent who was South African ? As I remember brad Barrett and that other guy (I think bakkies Botha, I maybe wrong) where know as the outcasts of South African rugby as they wernt picked so they went else where.

Bakkies Botha? 76 caps for the Boks Bakkies Botha? Could be Matt Stevens you're thinking of, he was born/raised in South Africa but to English parents, and having played age-grade for South Africa, moved to England for University.
Barritt has Rhodesian parents, which means he has an English passport, and apparently the majority of his family are English/live in England. He played for Emerging Springboks, and then moved to England in his early 20s and played for Saxons etc. from there. No idea whether he would've made it as a Bok.

Tuilagi chose to play for England, so he obviously considers himself to be English to an extent, having grown up and played all of his rugby here.
Same goes for the Vunipola brothers - would've made the Tonga squad at some point, but chose to represent England having spent most of their lives here.

 

[Howzy]

Bakkies Botha? 76 caps for the Boks Bakkies Botha? Could be Matt Stevens you're thinking of, he was born/raised in South Africa but to English parents, and having played age-grade for South Africa, moved to England for University.
Barritt has Rhodesian parents, which means he has an English passport, and apparently the majority of his family are English/live in England. He played for Emerging Springboks, and then moved to England in his early 20s and played for Saxons etc. from there. No idea whether he would've made it as a Bok.

Tuilagi chose to play for England, so he obviously considers himself to be English to an extent, having grown up and played all of his rugby here.
Same goes for the Vunipola brothers - would've made the Tonga squad at some point, but chose to represent England having spent most of their lives here.

I see what you mean and hmmmmm I dunno who that other guy was I think he's a flanker and players for sarries alway where's a scrum cap

 

[ZeFrenchy]

You are wrong... There are 23 Samoans in the 23 to face South Africa...and 15 in the starting line up

Just because they were not born in Samoa doesn't mean they are not Samoan...13 Samoan born players who have played for the AB's most of which were in the last 20 years. Thats a big number and thats not even counting the New Zealand born Samoans

National sides represent sovereign nations. By your logic Thierry Dusautoir and Yannick Nyanga should be playing for their respective african ethnic group instead of France. I suggest this user should be banned for racism.
The All Blacks represent the nation of New Zealand, there is nothing to do with "blood". A New Zealand-born Samoan is called a New Zealander. If his ethnicity is Samoan, he can play for a side that represents the Samoan ethnicity (sort of like the NZ Maori, though I am strongly against team eligibility being ethnicity-based).
I have very little respect for a national side that has no participation in the formation of its players.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I see what you mean and hmmmmm I dunno who that other guy was I think he's a flanker and players for sarries alway where's a scrum cap

That'd be Mouritz Botha I think.

 

[Howzy]

National sides represent sovereign nations. By your logic Thierry Dusautoir and Yannick Nyanga should be playing for their respective african ethnic group instead of France. I suggest this user should be banned for racism.
The All Blacks represent the nation of New Zealand, there is nothing to do with "blood". A New Zealand-born Samoan is called a New Zealander. If his ethnicity is Samoan, he can play for a side that represents the Samoan ethnicity (sort of like the NZ Maori, though I am strongly against team eligibility being ethnicity-based).
I have very little respect for a national side that has no participation in the formation of its players.

Wow this is a forum not a arguement. I think the racism bit is going a bit to far as le Manu Is only getting his point across.

and yes it that guy cheers

 

[sifplay]

To put some context to this "poaching" myth. Just look at these numbers.

There are 15 New Zealand born players in the Samoan 23 to face South Africa this weekend. And 10 in the starting 15.

There are 13 Samoan born players who have played for the All Blacks in their entire history. Most of whom like Jerry Collins and Mils Muliaina spent nearly their whole life in New Zealand and were raised and educated there. Add to that, 4 of those 13 also played for Samoa as well as the All Blacks in the old double nation rule like Inga Tuigamala for example. There isn't a single player born in the Islands in the current New Zealand squad.

As I have said many times here, Samoa gains a great deal from their proximity to New Zealand. Most notably from the fact, that they get a lot of New Zealanders who went through the New Zealand system (probably the best in the world) and to play for them such as Kahn Fotuali'i and recently Jack Lam who was superb in the last couple of matches. These players actually provide the bulk of their team, and the fact that they have had more success getting these players like mentioned above available for them, is the main reason as to why they have improved since 2010.

I do not think you get at. Its much more complicated than just pointing to stats. You must remember the parents had to leave the island to find work. NZ the place where they will find so their children will be born there but Samoans have a proud culture and the kids still belong to their villages etc etc.
As I said its complicated. Best for Kiwi's and Samoans to argue that point. Its one of those never ending arguments

Really?

Yeah. Its what a player do on the field. And he is just strong and opinionated. One of the friendlies persons I know and always have a nice chat with him on twitter.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

National sides represent sovereign nations. By your logic Thierry Dusautoir and Yannick Nyanga should be playing for their respective african ethnic group instead of France. I suggest this user should be banned for racism.
The All Blacks represent the nation of New Zealand, there is nothing to do with "blood". A New Zealand-born Samoan is called a New Zealander. If his ethnicity is Samoan, he can play for a side that represents the Samoan ethnicity (sort of like the NZ Maori, though I am strongly against team eligibility being ethnicity-based).
I have very little respect for a national side that has no participation in the formation of its players.

Its not racism and Le Manu is not saying people should play for teams along racial lines. He is saying many people of Samaon decent still consider themselves to be Samoan and he takes offense at suggestions that they aren't Samoan simply because they weren't necessarily born in Samoa. People should distinguish between race and culture. I know it is sometimes hard to do because you inevitably get both from your parents; your DNA and cultural heritage so the two are inextricably linked.

As a proud Boer I can understand where Le Samoa is coming from. Samoa is a small nation geographically speaking with most of the actual 'nation' living outside of its borders. It's very much the same for us although the Boere as a 'nation' (a distinct group of people within the broader 'nation' of being South African) aren't even a majority in our own country so that has a whole other set of implications. What i am getting at is that wanting to preserve your cultural heritage is not racist in and of itself.

You would deny a person the choice of free association because that person happened to be born somewhere outside of what they associate with? That is small thinking IMO; black and white thinking. That said if someone of a specific heritage chooses to adopt to the place they know and at one stage find themselves in I believe they should be allowed to do so as well. It's a personal choice in as far regulations allows one the freedom IMO.

 

[Draggs]

Believe me mate, know exactly what you are saying. I can fully believe that Samoan descendants are proud of their heritage and embrace it. What I was getting at was that there aren't as many Samoans who have played for NZ, compared the the other way. I can fully understand that NZ born Samoans feel passionate towards Samoa and want to represent it, but we cannot apply a blanket statement to all.

 

[sifplay]

You must start at 1995. When professionalism hits SA, Australia and NZ sorted themselves out with a income wit tv deal and left teams like Samoa an Fiji out in the dark with no income when they were excluded from Super Rugby. Without the finances going into a a professional era you are going to fight a uphill battle. So they basically had to go and scrap the breadcrumbs together. So relying on NZ to school them and for development and the ones they do not select Samoa will pick up. In the end NZ is still part of the Islands and are mostly paying for their development. But a player playing for Samoa one year and run out for NZ in the JWC the next year. That is not on. That is cherry picking.

 

[psychic duck]

I do not think you get at. Its much more complicated than just pointing to stats. You must remember the parents had to leave the island to find work. NZ the place where they will find so their children will be born there but Samoans have a proud culture and the kids still belong to their villages etc etc.
As I said its complicated. Best for Kiwi's and Samoans to argue that point. Its one of those never ending arguments.

I do get it actually sifplay. Players can play for more than one nation. I bet many New Zealand born players are proud of their heritage, but it doesn't mean they can't be New Zealanders as well. Kahn Fotuali'i for example isn't a poach for Samoa (even though he was a product of the NZ rugby system which Samoa have benefited from developing a very good player), but if he were to have played for New Zealand you would say he was a "poach" which is rubbish as he was born and raised there and has the right to play for them.

In fact, the player himself said that NZ was his main goal. He had the choice of two nations. But don't tell me if New Zealand picked him it was a "poach" simply because he is proud of his heritage. He is proud of his heritage, but still he wanted to play for New Zealand more.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10654765

The prospect of playing for Samoa appeals because I'm proud of my heritage. I would love to play for them at the World Cup but playing for the All Blacks has always been the ultimate goal.

To be honest, the Islanders should be looking at France if they want to play the victim game. After Fiji were denied a few players for the RWC by clubs not releasing players, and recently they picked Noa Nakaitaci to play for them, now that is a more legitimate poach, not a player who was born and raised in New Zealand and went through their system and have the right to choose to play for them.

Its not racism and Le Manu is not saying people should play for teams along racial lines. He is saying many people of Samaon decent still consider themselves to be Samoan and he takes offense at suggestions that they aren't Samoan simply because they weren't necessarily born in Samoa. People should distinguish between race and culture. I know it is sometimes hard to do because you inevitably get both from your parents; your DNA and cultural heritage so the two are inextricably linked.

As a proud Boer I can understand where Le Samoa is coming from. Samoa is a small nation geographically speaking with most of the actual 'nation' living outside of its borders. It's very much the same for us although the Boere as a 'nation' (a distinct group of people within the broader 'nation' of being South African) aren't even a majority in our own country so that has a whole other set of implications. What i am getting at is that wanting to preserve your cultural heritage is not racist in and of itself.

You would deny a person the choice of free association because that person happened to be born somewhere outside of what they associate with? That is small thinking IMO; black and white thinking. That said if someone of a specific heritage chooses to adopt to the place they know and at one stage find themselves in I believe they should be allowed to do so as well. It's a personal choice in as far regulations allows one the freedom IMO.

You're wrong stormer2010. LeManu is saying that players of Samoan race who were born, raised and lived in New Zealand all their lives are "poaches" by New Zealand because they are of Samoan race. The fact that he extends this to even Paul Williams who isn't of Samoan race just makes his theory even worse. He thinks every player eligible for Samoa who doesn't is "poached" due to some blanket theory that unless he has gone about asking every individual he has no actual evidence of.

Paul Williams is as qualified Samoan as Richie McCaw and Sean Maitland are Scottish and plays through the grand parent rule. Yet Samoa actually escape any poaching accusations themselves which they are lucky actually.

Also nobody is forcing them to play for New Zealand. If they considered themselves so non-New Zealanders then they wouldn't play would they? And would refuse and play for Samoa.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Re-reading my previous post, I think I may have overreacted. Being a son of immigrants myself, I don't tolerate the "you're not from here, you just happen to born and raised here" speech.
I don't have a problem with the current Samoa players playing for them, though I do have a problem with Le Manu saying that Ma'a Nonu, John Afoa or Keven Mealamu are poaches. Ir reminds me of when people were saying that Zinedine Zidane shouldn't have played for France.