Samoa is the most improved International team!

[psychic duck]

Re-reading my previous post, I think I may have overreacted. Being a son of immigrants myself, I don't tolerate the "you're not from here, you just happen to born and raised here" speech.
I don't have a problem with the current Samoa players playing for them, though I do have a problem with Le Manu saying that Ma'a Nonu, John Afoa or Keven Mealamu are poaches. It reminds me of when people were saying that Zinedine Zidane shouldn't have played for France.

Neither are Samoan born Jerry Collins and Mils Muliaina "poaches" either having been brought up and raised in New Zealand and gone through their system. Le Manu saying that the likes of Nonu, Mealamu and Afoa are "poaches" because of their heritage is ridiculous.

He is saying that any player of Samoan race is a poach if they play elsewhere. Whilst he is happy that Paul Williams, a white player playing through grandparents, is captain of the Samoan team is a hypocritical.

 

[norcalbuff]

Yep, screw the country that actually gave their families opportunites. Strange mentality. Here in America, we are a nation of immigrants. Many are proud of their ancestry and retain parts of their ancestors' cultures, but virtually everyone would be American first and their ancestry second.

 

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

Fair play to Samoa, they are getting some really good results recently and playing a very good attacking style of rugby, with some quality playuers on the team. Lets hope they can keep these performances up consistently.

Looking forward especially to seeing Ireland play them in the Novemeber tests especially, because its a team we rarely play and it'd be good to see how far they have come against us.

 

[donmcdazzle]

But a player playing for Samoa one year and run out for NZ in the JWC the next year. That is not on. That is cherry picking.

Come on mate, this has already been explained to you. NZ only picks players for the JWC for one year, ie their final year of eligibility. So if a player has the ability to represent another nation prior to his final year of age eligibility they will quite often exercise that right before being selected the following year for NZ (ironically the nation where they were born and raised, and taught to play rugby). It is almost poaching from the island nations that they decide to swoop in and grab these products of the NZ system to boost their age grade teams.

 

[j'nuh]

Bakkies Botha? 76 caps for the Boks Bakkies Botha? Could be Matt Stevens you're thinking of, he was born/raised in South Africa but to English parents, and having played age-grade for South Africa, moved to England for University.
Barritt has Rhodesian parents, which means he has an English passport, and apparently the majority of his family are English/live in England. He played for Emerging Springboks, and then moved to England in his early 20s and played for Saxons etc. from there. No idea whether he would've made it as a Bok.

I have also tried to erase the memories of MoBo playing for England.

 

[Le_Manu]

I do not think you get at. Its much more complicated than just pointing to stats. You must remember the parents had to leave the island to find work. NZ the place where they will find so their children will be born there but Samoans have a proud culture and the kids still belong to their villages etc etc.
As I said its complicated. Best for Kiwi's and Samoans to argue that point. Its one of those never ending arguments

Yes thank you, someone understands me. That is exactly my point. My parents moved here in the early 90's and brought us up in NZ as Samoans. I think I am getting Ethnicity and Nationality mixed up so I apologise for that but I am not racist. I am talking as a Samoan growing up in NZ, but I also understand its not the case for everyone.

Its not racism and Le Manu is not saying people should play for teams along racial lines. He is saying many people of Samaon decent still consider themselves to be Samoan and he takes offense at suggestions that they aren't Samoan simply because they weren't necessarily born in Samoa. People should distinguish between race and culture. I know it is sometimes hard to do because you inevitably get both from your parents; your DNA and cultural heritage so the two are inextricably linked.

As a proud Boer I can understand where Le Samoa is coming from. Samoa is a small nation geographically speaking with most of the actual 'nation' living outside of its borders. It's very much the same for us although the Boere as a 'nation' (a distinct group of people within the broader 'nation' of being South African) aren't even a majority in our own country so that has a whole other set of implications. What i am getting at is that wanting to preserve your cultural heritage is not racist in and of itself.

You would deny a person the choice of free association because that person happened to be born somewhere outside of what they associate with? That is small thinking IMO; black and white thinking. That said if someone of a specific heritage chooses to adopt to the place they know and at one stage find themselves in I believe they should be allowed to do so as well. It's a personal choice in as far regulations allows one the freedom IMO.

Well put, thank you.

Believe me mate, know exactly what you are saying. I can fully believe that Samoan descendants are proud of their heritage and embrace it. What I was getting at was that there aren't as many Samoans who have played for NZ, compared the the other way. I can fully understand that NZ born Samoans feel passionate towards Samoa and want to represent it, but we cannot apply a blanket statement to all.

Have a look at your stats over the last 20 years. We only started coming to NZ in the 60's and 70's remember. Thats a big share of players that are Samoan, Tongan and Fijian descent

Yep, screw the country that actually gave their families opportunites. Strange mentality. Here in America, we are a nation of immigrants. Many are proud of their ancestry and retain parts of their ancestors' cultures, but virtually everyone would be American first and their ancestry second.

Please read my previous post. I am very grateful and I'm sure the players are of the opportunities that NZ has given us. Keep in mind most Samoans are only 1st/2nd generation so they will have a strong link to their heritage.

 

[Draggs]

Le_Manu, please do not multipost, edit your posts instead.

 

[Big Ewis]

I've read a big part of the whole blood conversation. "Blood is thicker than a passport stamp".

I'm a bit surprised the conversation wasn't a lot clearer, it's a very simple reality really:

1) Yannick Nyanga is a French player. Why ? He, like any French player, has been trained in France. Also: he is culturally French, of course speaks the language...etc...all the identity/cultural oriented things, that help too but aren't essential.

2) His ethnic background is Congo (Kinshasa). Races are a physical, scientific reality. China/Hong Kong have the highest collective IQ on average; just a fact. Africans are far more athletic (smt to do with muscles being lighter/thinner and developing faster) than most other races. Fact. So credit goes to his race/ethnic background as well, because that is part of where he takes his strength from.

There are genetic predispositions (genotype) and then how those are used to develop (training facilities, discipline imposed, good coaching...). Very, very simple reality, absolutely no need for debate.

* If a guy is of Samoan descent but is trained from a very young age in NZ, he's a kiwi as far as rugby is concerned - yet, sure credit goes out to his genetic heritage.

* It's no wonder we semi-poached a guy like Nakaitaci. Fidjian guys are strong/powerful, ultra-athletic and run like hell. Perfect for a wing. There's no point in saying "oh oh oh he's Fidjian" because he was trained in France from an early age, plays in France, french club etc...but sure his origins should be saluted. Usually, unless we're talking Vincent Clerc or Shane Williams or Cohen - about 8 out of 10 times the Pacific Islander guys are just more physically gifted wingers.
Period, full stop.

 

[Gavin]

Thought this thread was about how Samoa are the most improved international team. Can we maybe get back to topic?

 

[LittleGuy]

Thought this thread was about how Samoa are the most improved international team. Can we maybe get back to topic?

Feed them to the MTN Lions!!!!

 

[psychic duck]

Thought this thread was about how Samoa are the most improved international team. Can we maybe get back to topic?

It is relevant. Samoa have improved considerably since about 2010 thanks to managing to get Samoan eligible New Zealanders who've been trained by the most successful rugby system in the world. And get enough of them to provide a large bulk of their team. Supplemented with some Samoans who have gone through and been trained by the most successful rugby system in the world.

Samoan eligible New Zealanders such as Paul Williams, Tusi Pisi, Ti'i Paulo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Ole Avei, James So'oialo, George Pisi, Johnny Leota, Filo Paulo and Jack Lam are all notable players who made their debuts from 2010 onwards. These are good players and most are a step up on what was there before.

They have also managed to get available the likes of Taiasina Tuifua and Alapati Leiua for example in recent times, both are born in Samoa and raised there, and also taken advantage of the most successful rugby system in the world.

So they have had far more success in getting a far better calibre of player available since 2010 when results began to pick up and gather momentum. In 2009 they lost 24-6 to Italy and 43-5 to France.

 

[Le_Manu]

Le_Manu, please do not multipost, edit your posts instead.

I am new to this. Hence why I walked blindly into the AB's and poaching discussion....leason learnt. I have my opinion, others have theirs

I've read a big part of the whole blood conversation. "Blood is thicker than a passport stamp".

I'm a bit surprised the conversation wasn't a lot clearer, it's a very simple reality really:

1) Yannick Nyanga is a French player. Why ? He, like any French player, has been trained in France. Also: he is culturally French, of course speaks the language...etc...all the identity/cultural oriented things, that help too but aren't essential.

2) His ethnic background is Congo (Kinshasa). Races are a physical, scientific reality. China/Hong Kong have the highest collective IQ on average; just a fact. Africans are far more athletic (smt to do with muscles being lighter/thinner and developing faster) than most other races. Fact. So credit goes to his race/ethnic background as well, because that is part of where he takes his strength from.

There are genetic predispositions (genotype) and then how those are used to develop (training facilities, discipline imposed, good coaching...). Very, very simple reality, absolutely no need for debate.

* If a guy is of Samoan descent but is trained from a very young age in NZ, he's a kiwi as far as rugby is concerned - yet, sure credit goes out to his genetic heritage.

* It's no wonder we semi-poached a guy like Nakaitaci. Fidjian guys are strong/powerful, ultra-athletic and run like hell. Perfect for a wing. There's no point in saying "oh oh oh he's Fidjian" because he was trained in France from an early age, plays in France, french club etc...but sure his origins should be saluted. Usually, unless we're talking Vincent Clerc or Shane Williams or Cohen - about 8 out of 10 times the Pacific Islander guys are just more physically gifted wingers.
Period, full stop.

Understood. I've come to the conclusion that I have my own opinions on this issue. Possibly, being a Samoan, I take it to heart more than others...and possibly why, for the same reasons, the kiwis take it to heart too. But hey, we all have our opinions... I am not being racist, and I have stated that I am grateful for the NZ/AUSSY/ENG/FRANCE nations for building a pathway for our Island players.

If anything, you might have heard, maybe for the first time, what an Islander thinks about this issue...and no I am not that arrogant to suggest I speak for all.

I have actually enjoyed this discussion because I thought I would get more support on this...but the 'other' view I have taken in. I am now the wiser so thank you for your contribution.

I will continue to support the AB's and the 'Island' players in those teams...but above all...Go The Manu!

 

[sifplay]

I've read a big part of the whole blood conversation. "Blood is thicker than a passport stamp".

I'm a bit surprised the conversation wasn't a lot clearer, it's a very simple reality really:

1) Yannick Nyanga is a French player. Why ? He, like any French player, has been trained in France. Also: he is culturally French, of course speaks the language...etc...all the identity/cultural oriented things, that help too but aren't essential.

2) His ethnic background is Congo (Kinshasa). Races are a physical, scientific reality. China/Hong Kong have the highest collective IQ on average; just a fact. Africans are far more athletic (smt to do with muscles being lighter/thinner and developing faster) than most other races. Fact. So credit goes to his race/ethnic background as well, because that is part of where he takes his strength from.

There are genetic predispositions (genotype) and then how those are used to develop (training facilities, discipline imposed, good coaching...). Very, very simple reality, absolutely no need for debate.

* If a guy is of Samoan descent but is trained from a very young age in NZ, he's a kiwi as far as rugby is concerned - yet, sure credit goes out to his genetic heritage.

* It's no wonder we semi-poached a guy like Nakaitaci. Fidjian guys are strong/powerful, ultra-athletic and run like hell. Perfect for a wing. There's no point in saying "oh oh oh he's Fidjian" because he was trained in France from an early age, plays in France, french club etc...but sure his origins should be saluted. Usually, unless we're talking Vincent Clerc or Shane Williams or Cohen - about 8 out of 10 times the Pacific Islander guys are just more physically gifted wingers.
Period, full stop.

Let me make it short for you. The issue wasn't about where they were born. Not at all. The issue really was guys being selected for Samoa then performs internationally then get picked by NZ and Samoa had to go find another player. Irrespective if he was born in Samoa Hong Kong NZ or on the moon. He played for a country and when he performed was suddenly drafted by another country like if Samoa was some development test team to see if they are any good at international level or not.

That is why the ruckus was about Bunce, Irramea, Vandiri etc etc because they chose to play for Samoa and Fiji first. Rockocko and others who played for the Kiwi's first no one really bothers about. Its just when Samoa build a good team or starting to build one their best players got selected for NZ. That was the issue. Which have been fixed with the one country ruling.

Suddenly Samoa are winning against bigger nations and have some consistency thanks to them not loosing their best players year in year out and do not have to build over and over again. Understand it now?

 

[Jaguares]

View attachment 2328
Ok, so we all know that the most improved award is the one that no one wants to receive!

However, one cannot overlook the strides that the Manu Samoa have taken over the past 3-4 years that sees them ranked 7th in the world and definitely, in my eyes, the most improved international team!

This is made all the more special considering the drama and obstacles Samoa have encountered during this period (some have been well documented and others not so)
In the past Samoa has suffered from inconsistency, something common to the smaller unions. After the 2011 RWC, it would've been assumed by many, that Samoa would go back to being the underdogs. Winning a big game here and there, but not really performing at a consistent high level. This assumption is far from the reality that Samoa have built for themselves at present. They have maintained the high standards over the past 2-3 years and this is due to consistency in coaching (to a degree) and the fact that they are building a strong team who have played together now for 10-20 test matches.

They are also starting to pick up players, who in the past would have chosen the bright lights and great hights of playing for All Blacks or Australia. The likes of Alapati Leiua, a certainty for the All Blacks training camp, is a big signing for Samoa. Kahn Fotuali'i is another. I hope this trend continues, as so many Island players are taken out of international rugby because they play one or two games for ABs or Aussy and then are not wanted any more. Masaga and Laulala are perfect examples. Only playing 1 or 2 test matches and not being good enough to play again. A question, how good would RWC 2011 have been if we had the BEST players at the time playing on the world stage? (Im sure this is a question for another time, but something to ponder nonetheless).

Samoa is starting to reach its potential. They are a small nation (180 000) but by God do they push above their weight. All they need now is a lot of funding and professional management and who knows how good they can get. I have always backed the underdog, and Samoa has always been my team! I know they can win this week end against S.A and really shake the Rugby World up one more time!

Go The Manu

Soifua

You're right, man. Samoa is a very tough team, today you can win the battle against the Springboks, wouldn't be a surprise.


Regards

 

[Big Ewis]

Feed them to the MTN Lions!!!!

Ohhhhhh, noooo !!!! Not that again Little Guy !!! I was just coming off my addiction and you just post it right back ! C'mon maaan !!

 

[Le_Manu]

Still hurting from the loss but gotta say SA stepped it up a gear or two. Their defence was brutal and stopped our big ball runners in their track and drove them backwards countless of times. Good fighting spirit from the Manu who managed to string together some good phases in what was a lost cause by half time.

Below is the manager of Manu Samoa's report on how the tour went...Go The Manu



A Report from the Manager of the Manu Samoa, Namulauulu Sami Leota, in Johannesburg.

______________________________________

Talofa Samoa and all the Manu Samoa Supporters,

As is always the case, the saddest part for any Manu Samoa Campaign is when you farewell the boys to return back to their homes scattered around the globe. It's been a long five weeks together and everyone is looking forward to getting back home to spend time with families and loved ones.

The first delegation left this morning at 10am for NZ and Samoa, the second delegation has just left for the UK and France and Australia, and the last one will be leaving the hotel tonight at 10pm for Japan and for three of us who will be heading on to the Sevens Rugby World Cup in Moscow.

We were disappointed as a team, not to achieve the outcomes we all desired in the South African game, and especially for the people of Samoa and supporters in Samoa and around the world who are behind this team.

BUT as Captain Paul Williams stated at the after match function last night, "a lot of lessons learnt from this game and we will build the team on from this experience".

Head Coach Stephen Betham reminded the boys after the game that "today will build tomorrow", and we will take with us what we have learnt on this tour to reflect on it and never lose focus of bigger things ahead of us that we can achieve together as a team, especially as the team is developing towards the 2015 RWC.

On the tour outcome as whole, we played 3 tests against 3 tier one nations, and won two (including the historical win against Scotland for the first time) and lost one yesterday to South Africa.

Its has always been a challenge for the Manu Samoa to put together the team literally within a week before embarking onto a major test match.. This campaign is no different and we will take with us the positives learnt on this tour and start planning for the November window when we come back together.

Early this morning, we were summoned for two (2) Hearings for Alesana Tuilagi's Red Card and for James Sooialo's Citation from the incident that involved the SA hooker. The players were represented by myself, Stephen Betham and Daryl Suasua.

After roughly 3 hours of hearings, submissions and deliberations, James Sooialo was cleared from the Judiciary of any offence and walked away free of any sanctions. Alesana Tuilagi's tackle on the SA captain was considered dangerous on the lowest scale and was given a two (2) weeks suspension.

May I take this opportunity to say Faafetai Tele Lava Samoa mo lau tapuaiga, I thank you for all the messages sent through and your prayers and words of encouragement.

May I also acknowledge all our sponsors especially Digicel, the Government of Samoa and TAB.

I also wish to acknowledge the tremendous support given by the Hon. Prime Minister as Chairman of the SRU, the Board and the SRU Office throughout this campaign.

Faamalulu atu pau o se mea ua oo i ai le taumafaiga a au alo fanau..ia ae e toe oso foi le la ma e fai aso foi le Atua.

May the Good Lord Bless you all.

Namulauulu Sami Leota
Team Manager
Johannesburg South Africa

 

[Le_Manu]

Samoa have confirmed a match against Ireland in the Autumn series. They will also play a French Barbarians and will play Georgia for the first time.

Cant wait for Ireland!!!

Go The Manu

 

[yarmolinsky]

and will play Georgia for the first time.

That is something I'd really like to see.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't go for this whole ethnicity rubbish. In my opinion poaching is where the player has been through the training system of one country and then plays for another.

 

[sifplay]

I don't go for this whole ethnicity rubbish. In my opinion poaching is where the player has been through the training system of one country and then plays for another.

Country do not do the poaching the club will do it like English clubs and players suddenly on some study venture where they get a nice house and car...... Matt Stevens cough cough