Second Best First Five?

[William18]

What's this "first five" position the OP speaks off?. And there was me thinking cricket had the monopoly on ridiculous positions..."silly mid off"..."short fine leg"

Sexton is an excellent infield runner, but his kicking is nowhere near O'Gara, both in terms of field placement and goal kicking. When O'Gara was still doing it he was first choice, and even when past his best he was still brought on to shore up the game. Sexton doesn't give that security.

The best #10 for me is Wilkinson, because he's been the only decisive #10 in a RWC winning team. For two years prior to the RWC he got England out of a hole time after time, and then carried that on at the tournament itself. Burnt out completely straight after that, injuries caught up with him. Clive's England were labeled "10 man rugby" as they played to their strengths, incredible scrum and a goal kicking machine. That label is a testament to Wilkinson's brilliance.

Nah. Wilkinson didn't burn out - you touch on the crux of the reason why Wilkinson went to **** later in your post. After 2003 England had retirements in the forwards, the forward pack was no longer dominant and Wilkinson went to ****. Wilkinson isn't as limited as a rugby player as many people make out but he still isn't the complete player. Dan Carter would star in any team under any circumstances; Wilkinson couldn't and that to me is the difference.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Nah. Wilkinson didn't burn out - you touch on the crux of the reason why Wilkinson went to **** later in your post. After 2003 England had retirements in the forwards, the forward pack was no longer dominant and Wilkinson went to ****. Wilkinson isn't as limited as a rugby player as many people make out but he still isn't the complete player. Dan Carter would star in any team under any circumstances; Wilkinson couldn't and that to me is the difference.

Not a particularly fair reflection of the post 03 situation. Wilkinson couldn't stay fit for his life for about four or five years after the world cup, it's difficult to properly asses him in that period given he never had a really long run of playing rugby.

 

[Big Ewis]

well this thread at least reminds us we're in a period where we don't have a clear winner. There was a time where everybody in the world who wasn't on heroin or had mental complexes that needed clinical attention would just yell out "DAN CAHTAHH !!".
But now ? It seems we're just picking a Jonathan Sexton because he's one of the most sound technically and plays in a fine system that makes the 10 a centerpiece and is very involved tactically, and kicks well (uhm well at least when not under pressure in big games).
Our pick seems more rational nowadays when it was a lot more instantaneous and a gut feeling before.

Honestly...I'm not super impressed with Cruden. I can only judge based on when he wears all black; I don't watch SR (unfortunately). He's good, but srsly...he's not wow.

I'm gonna go with a tie between Sexton, Owen Farrell and Quade Cooper (because he's been on form latest I've seen him). With FTD right there.

I'm probably missing smt from Cruden, but I've watched every single AB game since the 2011 RWC and I haven't been all that convinced...maybe it's because the whole team is so brilliant on attack that his input is shadowed by their overall greatness...

 

[Darwin]

well this thread at least reminds us we're in a period where we don't have a clear winner. There was a time where everybody in the world who wasn't on heroin or had mental complexes that needed clinical attention would just yell out "DAN CAHTAHH !!".
But now ? It seems we're just picking a Jonathan Sexton because he's one of the most sound technically and plays in a fine system that makes the 10 a centerpiece and is very involved tactically, and kicks well (uhm well at least when not under pressure in big games).
Our pick seems more rational nowadays when it was a lot more instantaneous and a gut feeling before.

Honestly...I'm not super impressed with Cruden. I can only judge based on when he wears all black; I don't watch SR (unfortunately). He's good, but srsly...he's not wow.

I'm gonna go with a tie between Sexton, Owen Farrell and Quade Cooper (because he's been on form latest I've seen him). With FTD right there.

I'm probably missing smt from Cruden, but I've watched every single AB game since the 2011 RWC and I haven't been all that convinced...maybe it's because the whole team is so brilliant on attack that his input is shadowed by their overall greatness...

Make no mistake Cruden is good. Very good. He did struggle a bit with a knee injury last season so we may not have seen him best on the international stage - not that he was poor, he just wasn't as outstanding as he can be. He has been the stand-out NZ 10 at Super Rugby level for a couple of seasons, and I think we are getting to the stage where he may well be starting at 10 for the All Blacks even when Dan Carter is fully fit. I know that is a big call, but Cruden is that good. Barrett is playing some outstanding rugby too though, but doesn't control the game near as well as Cruden. What stands out about Cruden is his composure. Nothing seems to bother him. He is also one of the few really creative 10's in world rugby. He takes the ball to the line well, can jink off either foot, offloads brilliantly, and has a number of cleaver kicking options. His lack of size can be an issue on defense but it is generally not a major issue, and that fact he reads the game so well means he gets a number of charge-downs and intercepts. If he can stay injury free and fully transfer his Super Rugby form onto the international stage I think we may see him starting ahead of Carter by the end of the year...

Anyways... I voted for Cruden, just ahead of Sexton (who has performed well on the international stage for a number of seasons). Barrett was outstanding at times off the bench last season but has yet to prove himself as a starter, while Cooper is far too inconsistent for my liking.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ k, thanks for that Darwin. I'll be sure to observe him more closely next time I see him...could you do me a favor please ? Could you or any kiwi let me know about a good game he's had so I can go watch it ? This year or any...or if there's a good game in the near future, let me know so I can check it out. I'd be happy to have a targeted SR game to watch, don't have the time to watch regularly so that would be awesome.

And Cooper's been fine in 2013. A LOT less erratic than his usual self. He was a joy to watch again last year, and stringed some nice games together, not just one great game and then nothingness.

Also, I reiterate my complaint. I understand people don't have time to watch all leagues in the world, Prem Rabo SR Top 14 etc..but not including François Trinh-Duc in a pool of TEN other players is just really unfair.

 

[lynam1104]

You must be great at parties.

I I could I would rep you.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I voted Barrett because that's the guy I'd pay anything for if I owned a club.

Is second best first five another one of those mad New Zealand positions?

I wanted to +1 but see you are the guy I'd + repped previously but I'll try to remember to come back here.

You must be great at parties.

Ditto. I know who is getting my vote for the TRFies

 

[Draggs]

I voted Barrett because that's the guy I'd pay anything for if I owned a club.



I wanted to +1 but see you are the guy I'd + repped previously but I'll try to remember to come back here.



Ditto. I know who is getting my vote for the TRFies

If you rep other members you can rep Feic again, cough.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If you rep other members you can rep Feic again, cough.

Trickle down repping right there, slut.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Surprised Nick Evans can't buy a vote here. (Though I didn't vote for him)

I also agree that Trinh-Duc should have made the list, though I suspect he would have been noticed more had he been getting international game-time.

 

[Aristodemus]

Surprised Nick Evans can't buy a vote here. (Though I didn't vote for him)

I also agree that Trinh-Duc should have made the list, though I suspect he would have been noticed more had he been getting international game-time.

Nah, it is because he is French and us English speaking guys don't notice anyone with them funny sounding foreign names. No idea who you are talking about btw.

Edit: After a thorough investigation I conclude that you must mean this guy, the Tree Duck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_Duck

 

[Feicarsinn]

Surprised Nick Evans can't buy a vote here. (Though I didn't vote for him)

I also agree that Trinh-Duc should have made the list, though I suspect he would have been noticed more had he been getting international game-time.

It's a good example of how the club game pales in comparison to the international game for the casual fan. In any case, Evans has been in decline for quite a bit in my view. Two years ago yes, he'd be right up there, but I'm not so sure now.

 

[admartian]

Out of all of them, Giteau was (when he was at his best).

But potentially, I think Beaduen has the highest ceiling out of ALL of them. If he can sort his kicking out and plaster his D a bit more, he'd be the best.

I still think the ABs should put more faith in BB in the future than AC. Right now though, AC's composure kicking is better. Heck even Simon Hickey/Lima Sopoaga's kicking are better .

 

[Darwin]

^ k, thanks for that Darwin. I'll be sure to observe him more closely next time I see him...could you do me a favor please ? Could you or any kiwi let me know about a good game he's had so I can go watch it ? This year or any...or if there's a good game in the near future, let me know so I can check it out. I'd be happy to have a targeted SR game to watch, don't have the time to watch regularly so that would be awesome.

And Cooper's been fine in 2013. A LOT less erratic than his usual self. He was a joy to watch again last year, and stringed some nice games together, not just one great game and then nothingness.

Also, I reiterate my complaint. I understand people don't have time to watch all leagues in the world, Prem Rabo SR Top 14 etc..but not including François Trinh-Duc in a pool of TEN other players is just really unfair.

Off the top of my head probably the two standout games at test level last year from Cruden were the 2nd French test and the 1st Australian test. He stood-out for different reasons in each match: against France he controlled the game brilliantly with the boot, while against Australia his running and passing game was outstanding. His 20-odd minutes in the 3rd test versus Ireland in 2012 was pretty special too....

Harder to pinpoint Super Rugby matches were he has stood out because there have been so many of them, and I don't remember individual Super rugby matches the same way I remember tests! Perhaps the 1st and 3rd Chiefs matches versus the Crusaders last season highlight his skills best. In both of these matches he convincingly outplayed Dan Carter (Carter was the better of the two in the 2nd match though). He almost single-handedly lead the Chiefs victory in the 3rd match (which was the semi-final).

 

[profitius]

Cruden I would say without doubt. Theres a bit of daylight between him and the rest.

 

[Big Ewis]

Off the top of my head probably the two standout games at test level last year from Cruden were the 2nd French test and the 1st Australian test. He stood-out for different reasons in each match: against France he controlled the game brilliantly with the boot, while against Australia his running and passing game was outstanding. His 20-odd minutes in the 3rd test versus Ireland in 2012 was pretty special too....

Harder to pinpoint Super Rugby matches were he has stood out because there have been so many of them, and I don't remember individual Super rugby matches the same way I remember tests! Perhaps the 1st and 3rd Chiefs matches versus the Crusaders last season highlight his skills best. In both of these matches he convincingly outplayed Dan Carter (Carter was the better of the two in the 2nd match though). He almost single-handedly lead the Chiefs victory in the 3rd match (which was the semi-final).

uhh yeah fk it, I ain't watchin that again !!
I understand what you're saying about test vs club and memory...my request is a bit impossible to fulfill really...but could you let me know in the near future whenever he puts up a fine performance, it would give me a targeted opportunity to watch some SR.
And I'll watch that 3rd match semi-final one then.
Thanks. And screw you for bringing up that second test against France, also.

Cruden I would say without doubt. Theres a bit of daylight between him and the rest.

so he's easily better than Sexton iyo ?

 

[profitius]

so he's easily better than Sexton iyo ?

Yup. Cruden is an outstanding player. Sexton is probably the best in Europe although thats not clear.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yup. Cruden is an outstanding player. Sexton is probably the best in Europe although thats not clear.

Eh, I'd say there's a decent amount of space between Sexton and the next tier. 2 or 3 kicks aside, he was outstanding during the 6 nations, probably our best back on the balance of things. I think Cruden has a lot more raw ability, but Sexton is a very well rounded player without any glaring weaknesses (perhaps his kicking under pressure). A complete 10 out of the Stephen Jones bracket, with perhaps a little more to his running game.

 

[SimonG]

Christ...reading that "Sexton is the best flyhalf in Europe"...got me thinking..he probably is...highlighting the paucity of quality NH players in the position today. Not so long ago the six nations teams had;

J.Wilkinson
R.O'Gara
S.Jones
C.Paterson
D.Dominguez
F.Michalak (when he was good)

From that to what the teams have now is quite some drop. Four of them were absolutely clinical goal kickers (Wilko, O'Gara, Paterson, Dominquez) while the other two were excellent all rounders. O'Gara was also the master at finding touch deep in the opponents half (the Munster gameplan). Ruan Pienaar is probably the best flyhalf (albeit he often wears #9) plying his trade in the NH today.

 

[profitius]

Eh, I'd say there's a decent amount of space between Sexton and the next tier. 2 or 3 kicks aside, he was outstanding during the 6 nations, probably our best back on the balance of things. I think Cruden has a lot more raw ability, but Sexton is a very well rounded player without any glaring weaknesses (perhaps his kicking under pressure). A complete 10 out of the Stephen Jones bracket, with perhaps a little more to his running game.

Is this the same Sexton who cost Ireland the game against England? Apart from his tries against France he had a poor game there too. Go back and watch it. The amount of times moves broke down because of him was far too high. I know its a highly pressurised position and errors will occur but his error count against France and England was too high for all the praise he got. He played well at home against Italy, Scotland and especially Wales.