Second Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (29/06/13)

[Johnny Boy]

Bowe could always move into the centre afterall he did cover centre in SA four years ago.

 

[jcahill1]

In advocating for Sean O'Brien you've omitted the fact that he doesn't have a brain - let alone a rugby brain.
Discipline and experience also matter.

Don't say that to big Seanys face. But i'd argue the rugby brain point.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Where has all of this "O'Brien is an idiot" chat come from? :huh:

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[Amiga500]

In advocating for Sean O'Brien you've omitted the fact that he doesn't have a brain - let alone a rugby brain.
Discipline and experience also matter.

I refer the honourable gentleman to Australian tries #1 and #2 at the weekend.

The tries where Mr Croft didn't have a f**kin scooby what he was doing.

 

[Ospreylian]

Bowe could always move into the centre afterall he did cover centre in SA four years ago.

This is true, he played practically a whole season at 13 when he played for Ospreys. So it's not as if it would be a huge gamble throwing him in there. I think he would fill the role competently.

With regards to Croft, I originally thought he was pretty lucky to get on the tour in the first place, over a player like Wood for example. Although I was impressed with him in a couple of the warm-up games. That said, he didn't have a great game in the first test, made a few mistakes. I'm happy with Lydiate being involved - think he has proved his worth again this tour, especially in his relentless defensive work around the fringes (he'll most certainly be on Genia-watch this weekend). I feel Croft still has certain elements to his game he needs to work on, and I don't agree that he would make a game-changing impact from the bench.

Really don't understand why people are saying SOB is clueless/ doesn't have a brain. He was unlucky not to be the starting 6 in the first test imo, I personally would have had him start over Croft that's for sure. He has become a very versatile back row player.

Was glad to see Davies keep his place, I think he's really earned his jersey this tour. Just because he didn't do anything particularly flash last weekend I think people are jumping to the conclusion he isn't good enough or should be dropped. He's probably the form centre though.

 

[Ospreylian]

Also, has anyone else seen that Craig Mitchell has been arrested for aggravated assault out in Australia? Makes you proud to be Welsh eh?

 

[Johnny Boy]

This is true, he played practically a whole season at 13 when he played for Ospreys. So it's not as if it would be a huge gamble throwing him in there. I think he would fill the role competently.

With regards to Croft, I originally thought he was pretty lucky to get on the tour in the first place, over a player like Wood for example. Although I was impressed with him in a couple of the warm-up games. That said, he didn't have a great game in the first test, made a few mistakes. I'm happy with Lydiate being involved - think he has proved his worth again this tour, especially in his relentless defensive work around the fringes (he'll most certainly be on Genia-watch this weekend). I feel Croft still has certain elements to his game he needs to work on, and I don't agree that he would make a game-changing impact from the bench.

Really don't understand why people are saying SOB is clueless/ doesn't have a brain. He was unlucky not to be the starting 6 in the first test imo, I personally would have had him start over Croft that's for sure. He has become a very versatile back row player.

Was glad to see Davies keep his place, I think he's really earned his jersey this tour. Just because he didn't do anything particularly flash last weekend I think people are jumping to the conclusion he isn't good enough or should be dropped. He's probably the form centre though.

+1

The back row was always going to be the most contentious selection of the tour and I think that most combinations would work pretty well to be fair, the welsh back row, sam and the 2 irish lads, croft, SOB and Heaslip, numerous permutations lol Whichever back row started there would always be some derision.lol

 

[Peat]

The scrum will be fine.
Grant is a better scrummager than Vunipola so that'll help when the front row is changed, as Cole can't carry a loosie in the way Jones can.
And the starting front row...look who's at 3.
Me and cyRil could pack down next to Adam and still get parity with most scrums.

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If we'd only got parity last week we'd have lost. There's nothing we can do about the props, but it does make things weaker, and one injury to Alun Wyn Jones basically leads to the night going to hell in a handbasket. The lack of real second row cover is incredible. We are also weaker in the lineout. We have taken out a target, arguably the best target there - anyone who thinks Dan Lydiate is in the same ballpark as Croft as a lineout jumper simply hasn't watched one of those players, Croft stole more lineout ball in a hundred minutes of Six Nations this year than Dan Lydiate has in his entire test career. If Croft had played 300 minutes, he would have probably taken more ball on his own lineout than Lydiate has in about 2000. I would have expected Parling to call to Croft rather than himself for a safety ball, that's what happens at Leicester. And we only have Croft to come and bolster it really, rather than a lock and a back row jumper.

Where has all of this "O'Brien is an idiot" chat come from? :huh:

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Probably his record of a penalty a game throughout his entire test career plus a fair few recent real bloopers. I still remember him thinking that charging at Leigh Halfpenny without support was better than looking for his backline. Everyone makes mistakes, O'Brien makes more than most.

 

[Butty1]

If we'd only got parity last week we'd have lost. There's nothing we can do about the props, but it does make things weaker, and one injury to Alun Wyn Jones basically leads to the night going to hell in a handbasket. The lack of real second row cover is incredible. We are also weaker in the lineout. We have taken out a target, arguably the best target there - anyone who thinks Dan Lydiate is in the same ballpark as Croft as a lineout jumper simply hasn't watched one of those players, Croft stole more lineout ball in a hundred minutes of Six Nations this year than Dan Lydiate has in his entire test career. If Croft had played 300 minutes, he would have probably taken more ball on his own lineout than Lydiate has in about 2000. I would have expected Parling to call to Croft rather than himself for a safety ball, that's what happens at Leicester. And we only have Croft to come and bolster it really, rather than a lock and a back row

But the game isn't only about line outs......that just restarts the game, and when it does then you have to tackle, and then Lydiate earns is corn. Puts in more tackles in 1 game than croft does in a season, a back row needs a tackler at 6, otherwise the 7 has too pick up that role like warby had to last week. Croft had about 8 tackles, while warby had twice that, which when your main role is to get to the breakdown and try to steal ball isn't easy when you are around someone ankles. Croft is great out wide but you need to do the dog work to get the ball first. Gray should have been on the bench, a good ball carrier, mobile with great hands and he's not bad in the line out either, the extra of couple of stones he has over croft would probably be well appreciated by the front row...

 

[j'nuh]

Lineout getting it tight - Croft is not a 2nd row option then, could use him in the backrow, but is he much addition over Heaslip or Lydiate at the front of the lineout?
Lost possession in the backs - You want a ball carrying forward? SOB
Going tight is not working - You need a better carrier in the backrow? SOB
Strong carrier? Nope. SOB
Fast carrier? Yep, but faster than Davies, North, Bowe, 1/2p, nah, you'd be safer working on getting them the ball in more space.
Backline (as opposed to backrow) struggling defensively? Did you not notice Croft was one of the chief men at fault for the two tries Australia scored at the weekend, Australia exploited his lack of knowing how to defend the 3/4 or wider channels.

1. He's one of the best lineout technicians around. I can understand concerns people might have over some other areas of his game, but he really is better than most second rows in the lineout. That being said, he's better in the middle/back, and our hookers haven't been throwing very well. He still took the joint-highest amount of lineouts last weekend anyway.

2. Possession being lost in the backline: what I meant is that by playing slightly more loose than the other forwards, he's good to have around to provide numbers in the ruck when going wide. He's a great rucker, deceptively fast to get to the ground too. Would prefer him in rucking support of a back than any other player.

3. Why pick between the two? Croft is the best attacking/supporting carrier, SOB can be used to recycle and add pace to the attack.

4. Why compare him to SOB? They play in different ways. I would prefer SOB carrying at the fringes, and Croft running to break tackles like a center would do.

5. You're underestimating Croft's pace:



6. Okay, just looked at those tries, and I'm still not sure what you're talking about? For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF8excq1FoQ

First try (1:5: Genia quick taps when Lions didn't have a defensive pattern set up. The move starts at 2:00 in the video, pause it here. Consider how far Croft is out. He has to run into the gap. Phillips had Genia marked and so with the pace he had built up, had Genia passed, Croft would have nailed the move dead there and then. I think he made the right choice to go for it, and had it been any other scrum half in the world, it would have been the right choice. But Genia is a very classy player and he pulls off a great dummy which fools both Croft and Phillips, and I don't think it's fair to hold that against them. It then takes an extra piece of skill for Genia to get that ball away in the end. I think it's easy to blame Croft in retrospect.

Second try (6:41-): seriously? It's 3 v 2 and there's so much space. Either they (Croft and North) stop the move in its tracks, or Aus execute a pretty simple overlap. Croft and North make the right moves to try and break down the move and it's a wonderful piece of skill to get the ball out to Folau. But Croft and North, in that play, have isolated Folau on the wing. He has no support, and there are players for him to still beat. Folau does well to finish, but he should have been tackled...

Croft is quicker than the other forwards - but you need to get the ball out to him in space to use his speed as he isn't good in heavy traffic - and you need to get him the ball in wide channels quickly with one less man clearing rucks. Catch22.

Not quite. He's versatile enough for both loose and tight and plays in both.

eg, one of the best tackles I've ever seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zTZZ9lPZ38#t=34s

But the game isn't only about line outs......that just restarts the game, and when it does then you have to tackle, and then Lydiate earns is corn. Puts in more tackles in 1 game than croft does in a season, a back row needs a tackler at 6, otherwise the 7 has too pick up that role like warby had to last week. Croft had about 8 tackles, while warby had twice that, which when your main role is to get to the breakdown and try to steal ball isn't easy when you are around someone ankles. Croft is great out wide but you need to do the dog work to get the ball first. Gray should have been on the bench, a good ball carrier, mobile with great hands and he's not bad in the line out either, the extra of couple of stones he has over croft would probably be well appreciated by the front row...

Warbs had slightly more time on the field (I know it doesn't count for much), but also missed 2 tackles (Croft didn't miss any) and Croft carried for more meters than any other forward.

 

[Peat]

But the game isn't only about line outs......that just restarts the game, and when it does then you have to tackle, and then Lydiate earns is corn. Puts in more tackles in 1 game than croft does in a season, a back row needs a tackler at 6, otherwise the 7 has too pick up that role like warby had to last week.

Luuuuuuuuuulz. Nice stereotypes.

 

[Butty1]

eg, one of the best tackles I've ever seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zTZZ9lPZ38#t=34s


Warbs had slightly more time on the field (I know it doesn't count for much), but also missed 2 tackles (Croft didn't miss any) and Croft carried for more meters than any other forward.[/QUOTE]


Watch this link to see what a real tackling no. 6 can do (now this is how tackling can change games)

http://youtu.be/4hD6cbaRANE

[video=youtube_share;4hD6cbaRANE]http://youtu.be/4hD6cbaRANE[/video]

Hope the link works, first time I've tried to add one, if not got to you tube and look for Dan Lydia Tackles. Pure class

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Croft made more turnovers than Warburton vs Wallabies.
Basically we should sack off Warburton....right guys?!


You complain about Peat focusing on 1 aspect of the game, yet you're doing the same with Lydiate's tackling.
I remain convinced that you've not actually watched Croft play in the last 4 years, for Tigers England or the Lions, and are basing your opinions on him on what you've read online.

 

[Peat]

Tbh, my post concentrated on one element of Croft/Lydiate's game, as it only concentrated on one element of the game - the set piece. I am not arguing about whether the trades offs are worth it or not, I am arguing that the set piece is weaker than it was last game. Well. Stating. I don't see how anyone can argue this one, its pretty cut and dry on paper. The rest? Can't really be bothered to argue about, but completely crap/pointless hyperbole just irritates me.

 

[Tony Manx]

I will always bow to greater knowledge or experience but my 10 bobs worth is:

1. Vunipola will make a huge difference to the scrummage and all in favour of the Aussies but an unavoidable change with the Corbs injury. Truly believe that this will show that Cole was not the reason that the scrum caved in when the front row was changed last week.

2. Very surprised to see Croft dropped as this removes a threat at the back of the line out but Lydiate has always been Gatland's favourite (and is Welsh!!)

3. The Oik is picked ahead of Phillips and, to be honest, is the right call whether or not Phillips is injured.

4. Reckon Farrell after his mid week match has learnt how to play on the gain line and would not be upset to see him come on as a sub if he played in that fashion....and I have NEVER been a Farrell fan!

5. Glad that Davies remains as Tuilangi has not shown any reason why he should be picked ahead of him. Also good to see Bowe instead of Cuthbert but why is he even on the bench? I would have chosen Kearney despite his relative lack of recent playing time.

I think that, if Australia play with the same intensity, and that is a big if, and Vunipola does not step up in the scrummage then the Lions could be put under all sorts of pressure by the Aussies with the ball as it would appear to me they did not have that much of it last week!

I will go for an Aussie win........but what do I know?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

To many Welsh players for my liking ...

 

[Ospreylian]

While we're on the subject of great tackles, how about Warburton nailing Tuilagi:



See, I can post a random video from the past to highlight a player's current merits too

My point is, this back row debate seems to often descend into people posting videos from the past in order to make a point about current form. Based on the above video, I think Warburton deserves his Lions spot. Based on the form I've seen from him and Tipuric all season, it would easily be Tipuric

 

[dullonien]

On the Croft debate, I see it as somewhere in between the two opinions of him. He adds a huge amount to the lineout, more than any other backrower on tour. He's usually utilised at the tail for Leicester and England, but he was used at the front in the first test. For me this invalidates his usefulness, because there were other players capable of doing that role, namely both second rows. We should have taken a little more risk, and moved Croft back and attempted to get some good off the top ball for Davies, BOD, North and Cuthbert to really attack midfield.

I do have a slight issue with his workrate, especially his tackle count. For a blindside to make fewer tackles than both centres is not ideal. But this could be for numerous reasons. One of which being Polock's interpretation of the breakdown. As the Lions were prevented to compete at the breakdown there was no point Warburton trying, as such he may have decided to play more of a blindside role, taking the tackling duties, allowing Croft to play wider out.

My preference is for a blindside to do a little more work, but I understand that is just an opinion.

2. Possession being lost in the backline: what I meant is that by playing slightly more loose than the other forwards, he's good to have around to provide numbers in the ruck when going wide. He's a great rucker, deceptively fast to get to the ground too. Would prefer him in rucking support of a back than any other player.

I'm not sure this is all that important, not when the Lions have two of the best rucking centres in world rugby. Both Davies and BOD are great in the tackle area, Davies excelling at counter rucking, and BOD at getting over the ball to force a turn-over.

 

[Ospreylian]

I think having Tipuric at least on the bench would have been a decent idea. He would obviously provide specialist openside cover, as well as giving the option to come on at 7 from the bench with Warburton moving to blindside if Lydiate were to get injured.

I thought the Lions suffered at times in the breakdown in the first test and didn't contest enough for the ball at rucks. With Lydiate coming in they now have someone to take on a big chunk of the tackling duties so Warbs can do his job more efficiently. And if Warbs gets injured during the game it is vitally important to keep up that intensity at the breakdown, which is why I would have had Tipuric on the bench.

I think I mention Tipuric's non-inclusion in practically every post lol. But it's because I'm still absolutely bemused as to why the coaches have ignored him. He is one of the classiest back rows in the Northern hemi.

 

[Big Ewis]

Croft is definitely a very special player...it's a shame he never played wing. I'd subconsciously convinced myself he WAS a winger for a while...then I realized I knew he was a flanker, obviously...with his tries he'll have me reminisce his jersey being a 14...