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South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

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Tomma235 said:
Scotty said:
I understand that in principle i do, but it's down to the squad to show it you cant just buy a WC, and we have a lot of very good players but not sure that many world class ones.

I stand by my point that that world class status needs to be earned.
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Absolutely it needs to be earned and that's what is depressing. With all the resources we have our national side is less than the sum of its parts and 90% of the parts (being generous) don't play as well as they should. We still don't have a player that can play what's in front of them.
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We have loads of players at clubs that play what’s in front of them or play decent game plans but England don’t do either and all our talent looks poor at international level.

That can’t be a player thing if all of them look worse.
 
Tomma235 said:
Absolutely it needs to be earned and that's what is depressing. With all the resources we have our national side is less than the sum of its parts and 90% of the parts (being generous) don't play as well as they should. We still don't have a player that can play what's in front of them.
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We do, most of the top 4 prem clubs can. I think the difference with Saints is that they are not bothered about risk and playing what is on. They are not harsh on mistakes if the decision was the right one.

At international level you get punished for mistakes. So they play risk adverse and the percentages.

Not helped by a coach who is 99.9% data driven. With no current point of difference or identity
 
LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) said:
I mean but whose fault is it that Smith was at 15?
Borthwick wasted time in not developing the other 15 options like Carpenter tbh.
Freeman has had 18 starts at 15 before this stupid 13 experiment
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I'm really curious what Borthwick does in his analysis of players.

What his actual selection criteria.

As you say Carpenter looked a good option for the 15 spot, so what why has he been barely looked at.
 
Leonormous Boozer said:
I was just thinking about this and I think it's a bit of both.

Jamie George in 2026, Van Portfliet, Murley, Atkinson, Freeman as a 13 and Smith as a 15 just aren't what you want in international rugby.*

Some of that is just not having the cattle, 2, 9 (outside Mitchell) and 12 are problem positions currently - that happens to everyone and is cyclical.

Today England played their strongest available team with a 15 who has played 6% of his professional matches in that position and no other time in the back three and a 13 who has played 16% of his pro matches there and no time at 12 (according to allrugby). Those are the two most specialised defensive positions on a rugby pitch, mistakes there give up more field position and points as a result than anywhere else - it's just madness and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the level of cohesion required at this level of rugby.

I think even with the relative weakness at hooker, England have the cattle for a world class pack and the purple patches they go through in games show this but dysfunctional defence and a very weak aerial game behind them doesn't allow the pack to impose themselves enough over 80 mins.

*Not a criticism of those lads today because a few of them were among a group of players who showed serious fight in what must have been a miserable second half to be a part of.
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Spot on.

Currently at best Englands centre pairing is fourth best in the 6 nations. Behind France, Ireland and Scotland.

A year out from the RWC and we still can't name a nailed on starting XV.
 
Quel Carreleur said:
I'd argue that we do have those players, because they do for their clubs. They're not enabled to though
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Probably true. We had one in Cipriani but England got shut of him pretty quickly. Are Fin Smith, Mitchell and VP up to it? I had high hopes for Marcus S at the start but he seems to have regressed too.
 
Reiser99 said:
It does, but rugby is a team game and you need to be one of the best in the world to consistently look world class in a poor performing team. If England were playing good quality rugby then more players would look world class or closer to it. I think we have the players to challenge at the top, though I'm not saying we'd suddenly be winning everything. However, the coaching is the biggest issue and with the current England coaching setup no one is going to look world class.
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Surely, lack of quality is a result of not having world class players.

You can't really have one without the other.
 
Scotty said:
Wonder how many plastic England fans turned off after 20 min haha
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I'm just tired of being absolutely ******* fuming after every game so I figured 20minutes was a good time to go and have a nap.

Didn't work because I still wish harm on Slowest Broadband and all his kin after waking up and watching the rest but it was a nice nap at least.
 
Saintjay said:
Spot on.

Currently at best Englands centre pairing is fourth best in the 6 nations. Behind France, Ireland and Scotland.

A year out from the RWC and we still can't name a nailed on starting XV.
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Brex and Menoncello is possibly the best centre partnership in the 6N.
 
At this point Boks and AB’s are top picks for WC next year, with France just behind. Ireland a few steps back.

England are well off the pace. Even given a healthy squad next year, while individually talented, they have no chance if they play Borthwick ball.
 
TommiG88 said:
Has he been sacked yet? How he kept his job after the 6nations is still beyond me.

Utter joke top to bottom at the RFU
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Because he’s one of the boys.

Rfu only sack coaches if they get empty seats in twickenham.

It’s all about funding the lifestyle not about the rugby.

The only English man that will be in the final will be the ref
 
I keep thinking about Snarfs Bigpies early comment on taking the role - "we just weren't good at anything" and wondering how he feels now
 
Geordie said:
I'm really curious what Borthwick does in his analysis of players.

What his actual selection criteria.

As you say Carpenter looked a good option for the 15 spot, so what why has he been barely looked at.
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Smith is probably the closest in attacking style to Furbank, however he never plays there so does not have the understanding needed for international. This will not improve next year as he will not get the opportunity to play at 15 for Quins!!!!!
The only thing they could do is interchange them in matches.
As for Carpenter he is the next closest in reading of the game, so why not use him as reserve
 
higgik said:
Smith is probably the closest in attacking style to Furbank, however he never plays there so does not have the understanding needed for international. This will not improve next year as he will not get the opportunity to play at 15 for Quins!!!!!
The only thing they could do is interchange them in matches.
As for Carpenter he is the next closest in reading of the game, so why not use him as reserve
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Very much the same as Freeman at 13. I've never hid I like the idea BUT I agree it needs to be happening at club level.

That just isn't going to happen so forget it for the moment and play him on the wing.

Whether we like the morals of it. .BJVR WILL improve the midfield.

But as discussed over and over .the tactics and coaching does seem to inhibit players...so it all becomes a bit irrelevant.
 
I know England should always be at the top, or at the very least aspiring to be the best, but SA are just different gravy and I’m not too sure if England can really do anything to get on that level. Maybe I’m being a bit harsh on some of their players. I like Martin, Chessum and many others and it’s not like they have no strength in depth but, yeah, what do you do against SA? I’m not sure really.
 
My confusion comes from the fact that Borthwick seems to think that the tactics are working but it's just poor execution. Consistently, the players keep saying that the game plan is fine, but it's just small margins that are missing. That's complete ********. Maybe the players are aware and just sticking to the script, but no one watching England yesterday left thinking England nearly won and were just missing a few percents here and there.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Who’s peoples top 3 candidates to take over Borthwick?
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For me, I have 6 names
Short term to get us past the RWC
1. Cheika
2. Mitchell

Long term
1. Blackett (With full reins)
2. Vesty

Outsiders
1. Jamie Joseph
2. Shaun Edwards (IDK, would be interesting to see what he is like at head coach he was a very good head coach at Wasps IMO)
 

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