South African Government wants to enforce Quota system - AGAIN!!!

[Jaguares]

Just an update:

Yesterday the Sports Minister, Mr. Fikile Mbalula, had a meeting with 3 minority group factions to discuss the whole Quota system and why it should not be implemented. One of these factions was Afriforum.

The decision was taken that the quota system will not be enforced onto anyone. There was also a petition given to Mr. Mbalula along with a promise to fight this matter in the courts if it is ever to be enforced.

Great news for sport lovers!!

Good news, yeah!! C'mon Afrikaners!

I'd also add one of the factors that black Africans don't identify with or participate in rugby is that they are on average of smaller stature than whites, and especially Afrikaners.
Even the whites with a historically English heritage don't match up with Afrikaners.
Honestly it's the bloody truth, I bet if you search the entire country and got the biggest and toughest blacks together, rugby playing or not, they will barely much up physically with a regional Free State team.

Yeah, I know. In Argentina is the same situation, you should read this:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/32906-In-Argentina-The-working-class-hates-Rugby

 

[Draggs]

Good news, yeah!! C'mon Afrikaners!



Yeah, I know. In Argentina is the same situation, you should read this:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/32906-In-Argentina-The-working-class-hates-Rugby

Yes, Afrikaners are the only group affected, it's not like many British emigrated or anything.

 

[dasNdanger]

In the US they've had Affirmative Action, which is a type of quota system to ensure minorities (especially racial minorities) have equal opportunities, particularly where it comes to education. I get that - people given a chance to go to college who would normally be prohibited from attending, either due to race or finances.

However, sports are far different. There's a reason more black guys play basketball in the US than white guys - we could make the 'white guys can't jump' joke, or just acknowledge that there's both a physical reason as well as a cultural reason: More inner city kids play basketball because it's accessible to them, and more inner city kids are black (or other minorities). Baseball here tends to be fairly well mixed with white, black, latino, and even Japanese players. But hockey? That's always been primarily a white sport (though there are a few black players now - back in the 1970s I think there was only one black player in the entire NHL). American football? Black and white sport - with the occasional South Pacific Islander who defected from rugby. It's just natural (IMHO) for certain people to be attracted to certain sports.

To try to force people to play a sport just to fill a quota will backfire if those people don't have a love of the game they are playing. That said, I have NO problem with expanding the rugby program in SA in order to make the sport more racially diverse, but only if those people who get involved in the game actually love the game. If they're out there on the pitch, wishing they were playing [soccer] football the second a huge Samoan forward comes barrelling down on them, then they're not fit for the game, regardless of color.


das

 

[SimonG]

I'd also add one of the factors that black Africans don't identify with or participate in rugby is that they are on average of smaller stature than whites, and especially Afrikaners.
Even the whites with a historically English heritage don't match up with Afrikaners.
Honestly it's the bloody truth, I bet if you search the entire country and got the biggest and toughest blacks together, rugby playing or not, they will barely much up physically with a regional Free State team.

Nah not having that. Tendai Mtawarira is "the beast", and Habana is "the cheetah". Blacks genetically are quicker and more powerful. The predominant reason few blacks in SA identify with Union is due to its historic ties with the oppressive white ruling class and the apartheid regime. Mandela's incredible gesture in '95 may have healed some wounds for blacks but it will take a long time to for Union to shake off its white, elitist tag. Football was a game for the oppressed in South Africa and provided the only source of freedom for the prisoners in Robben Island. Rugby Union represented the oppressors.

 

[USSR]

Surely many black Africans are smaller due to environmental factors rather than genetics? No expert but same diet/surrounding surely very similar build? Not in all cases obviously but overall

 

[Da Grappla]

Quota system and by the way, Affirmative Action, is just nonsense. How could anyone say that doesn't fit in sports but it does in medicine? Plain nonsense. Blacks, women, gays...they're not disabled. Are you on a wheelchair? Well, if you are, you shall benefit from discrimination. If you're not, man up and compete with everyone else.

Western democracies are getting Minoricracies, countries where a former majority is pushed and pulled (or being smashed and jailed) to accept the rule of the minorities just because some sort of supposedly past wrong deeds commited by the granpas of that majority. Those minorities combined are by far, a larger portion of the population, but have every state machinery at their service.

 

[USSR]

What?! Where is your evidence for this supposed taking over by minorities in W. Europe? And you say man up but there needs to be the means e.g. Grass roots education of the sports in schools. Quotas are wrong I agree, equal standing based on ability is the way. How to ensure this is tricky though obviously

 

[Jaguares]

Nah not having that. Tendai Mtawarira is "the beast", and Habana is "the cheetah". Blacks genetically are quicker and more powerful. The predominant reason few blacks in SA identify with Union is due to its historic ties with the oppressive white ruling class and the apartheid regime. Mandela's incredible gesture in '95 may have healed some wounds for blacks but it will take a long time to for Union to shake off its white, elitist tag. Football was a game for the oppressed in South Africa and provided the only source of freedom for the prisoners in Robben Island. Rugby Union represented the oppressors.

Not ALL blacks are the same, there are differences among blacks. Some are stronger than others. That's why countries like Ethiopia are marathon world power but not world power in speed. And countries like Jamaica are world power in speed but aren't in marathon:

In the 1st photo the athletes are thinner and can run long distances while the 2nd photo are stronger but can't run long distances. So there are different types of black, I'm not sure what kind in SA. As Afrikaners of th forum say most are thin as those of Kenya and some are strong as Mtawarira and Habana.

Cheers

 

[USSR]

Your basing physical characteristics to race? Absolute crap

 

[profitius]

Nah not having that. Tendai Mtawarira is "the beast", and Habana is "the cheetah". Blacks genetically are quicker and more powerful. The predominant reason few blacks in SA identify with Union is due to its historic ties with the oppressive white ruling class and the apartheid regime. Mandela's incredible gesture in '95 may have healed some wounds for blacks but it will take a long time to for Union to shake off its white, elitist tag. Football was a game for the oppressed in South Africa and provided the only source of freedom for the prisoners in Robben Island. Rugby Union represented the oppressors.

Faster - yes, more powerful - no.

Also you might not realise but South African Blacks are on average 5'6" which is very small. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_the_world
Whether thats because of poor diet I don't know but it will not help the Springboks win. I would imagine there'd be little difference between the British and Afrikaners.

As for rugby being elite, well whats new? Its elite in most countries around the world including Ireland where its very elite.

 

[dasNdanger]

Your basing physical characteristics to race? Absolute crap

To an extent, you can, especially when it comes to height. For instance, we have a lot of Mexicans here who are of Native American ancestry. Most of the men are barely taller than I am (I'm only 5'2"/157.4 cm). But if they have European blood then they are much taller. Currently, I believe, Norwegians and the Dutch are tied for tallest average height (compared to 5'6.5"/169 cm average height for South African men as of 1998). Heredity can also dictate such things as bone size and muscle density.

However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and 'average' means just that - there are going to be people who are smaller, and others who are much bigger, within any given race or ethnic group. It also doesn't mean that a person can't - through diet and physical training - become great athletes in any sport, regardless of height.

In fact, I just heard that one of the Super Rugby players - alas, I forget who - is only 5' 6 or 7" - that's pretty short compared to some of the giants on the pitch, and yet he can still successfully compete because HE'S BEEN TRAINED TO DO SO.

So, while some physical characteristics can certainly be attributed to race, that doesn't mean that those characteristics will necessarily hold a person back from becoming a great athlete in whatever sport he chooses to compete. Sure, it may make it a bit more difficult to work up to pro levels, but it certainly wouldn't be impossible.

Side thought as I typed that - in areas where physical size may play a part in one's ability to be a great rugby player (I was thinking countries such as Japan where the average male height is well under 6 foot), do you think it tempts (or could tempt) players to experiment with performance enhancing drugs to 'beef up' in order to keep up with the big boys?



das

 

[USSR]

Fair enough there may be differences as average as you say due to race. But I would say not huge differences and, as said, without training it wouldn't count for much.

I remember hearing the differences in Japan with introduction of western food, especially meat after WW2. People grew hugely compared to past generations with the fat and protein rich foods introduced.

Doping is always a problem, and to keep up it probably is a temptation to smaller players.

 

[SimonG]

Given that very few blacks in South Africa play Rugby due primarily to its historic ties as a white ruling class game, and the two blacks in the SA Rugby team are the beast and the cheetah, chances are that if more blacks played Rugby there would be more beasts and cheetahs. An increased playing pool means an increased number to choose from.

Here in the north of Ireland, almost zero Catholics play Rugby (I'm an anomaly thanks to one training session with Willie Anderson) and it is not played in catholic schools due to its history as an elitist game of the British ruling class. It means that just as SA loses out on a bigger playing pool for historic reasons so do we in the north.

 

[USSR]

I agree SimonG, Rugby's historical elitist edge is only bad for the game. Continuing building at grassroots at an early age, schools as you say is key.

 

[Da Grappla]

Rugby will never lose its upper class edge unless it becoming some kind of national sport of the country which it's played at. I just realize long time ago, all combat sports ( rugby is, only a team one) are prone to injuries barely accepted by the mainstream, specially employers. Even minor scratches or scars on your face, knuckles, forearms...visible parts in the everyday office time (let alone cauliflower ears) are as pussy magnets as bosses eyebrow raisers.

 

[USSR]

Forever is a long time but I agree. Also, I for one don't mind rugby being more of a niche sport than a national sport in the majority of countries, namely soccer. As you say it will likely never be #1 which isn't bad as it keeps a dedicated fan base. But I think it will continue growing in popularity which also isn't a bad thing

 

[Da Grappla]

Forever is a long time but I agree. Also, I for one don't mind rugby being more of a niche sport than a national sport in the majority of countries, namely soccer. As you say it will likely never be #1 which isn't bad as it keeps a dedicated fan base. But I think it will continue growing in popularity which also isn't a bad thing

I'd be happy if it would not be taken as an oddity/excentricity at least. Only the chance to watch and play it. Removing Basque Country and university campuses, you won't see a single pitch with a H goal in Spain. Whereas you have public facilities everywhere like mini putt courses, golf courses, indoor football, handball, table tennis, padel, squash, karate tatamis, etc, etc. But no rugby at all, neither on the street, nor in TV.

 

[USSR]

That would be extremely annoying. In the UK it's much more widely available to watch and play so can't complain too much. It's colonial/elitist overtones really do hinder it's development it seems.

 

[Da Grappla]

It is...at least I could join a club of the university that owns the ground where our national team plays on and four more fields. Pity the others were artificial turf or didn't have manteinance, so after three or four league rounds, grass had been destroyed. Then came november and the heavy rains...and the delight of bellow 0º late november nights, so you ended up playing a saturday early morning on a frozen mud field with bumps and holes hard as rocks that made you nice cuts on your shins, knees or forearms haha...those were the times of epic, no doubt.

Just one season and I was back on the wrestling mat.

 

[USSR]

Haha can't blame you! I don't personally play but that sounds terrible