Steve Walsh is a cheat...

[RoosTah]

Right call - illegal tackle.

Shoulder charges are illegal and blatant.

Was almost an "elbow charge" - pretty sickening blow in the end and just totally unnecessary. Wales were on top and the tackle didn't need to be made in that way; if he'd tried to tackle him with his arms he might have be able to drag his foot into touch, and even if he didn't it would have set up a bloody hard conversion for the win.

 

[Tony Manx]

The TMO pointed out it may be a yellow card and Walsjh clearly said "no card" so was considered.........

I think the responses here all explain everything clearly to you NAUGHTYBUTNICE......please do not be put off and come back on the Top 14 thread as, after all, your club carries the Basque Countries hopes alone this season (and maybe the next, and the next.....)!

 

[Big Ewis]

Apologies E-unit

awwww shieeeeeeet mayn...

 

[goodNumber10]

was an awful tackle (we shouldn't even use that word) Williams has history for this kind of stuff - late hits etc... Rob Kearny in the 6 nations, type liam williams red card into youtube... he's a cracking player but he needs to get his temper in check.

he was in rugby world this month proudly saying how his dad and brother put it about a bit for their local rugby team.

 

[goodNumber10]

Haven't seen the Welsh one yet, but this one (watch from 6:25) was certainly the right decision...

i don't agree with that at all (suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurprise! )

I think toveas left arm doesn't wrap, i think you can see on the front on shot that his left hand is visible under hape and he uses his left shoulder - it's no where near as bad as williams challenge though.

but yeah, whatever!

 

[Jakke]

George North knocked the winger off balance. Is everyone really 100% sure that Hendricks' foot would not have touched the sideline before he crossed the tryline had Williams not touched him?

Publicly the welsh pundits, coaching staff & players backed the decision because they don't want Steve Walsh to have a grudge against them. In any case they couldn't change the decision anyway. Accept it and move on was the best policy.

Steve Walsh is not a very good referee in my opinion. I say this because there are controversial decisions in so many of his matches. He has refereed some game very well in his career however he always has a proportion of games where his calls are inconsistent or just wrong. He is definitely sensitive and can be harsh because he believes he is a reasonable referee - calling the players 'mate'. Other referees would have controlled the game better - 2 yellow cards & 2 penalty tries is too much.

I hope he doesn't get World Cup knockout games because we will definitely be talking about him & his decisions rather than the rugby, which is what he wants anyway. Very big ego.

 

[Basco]

It was the right decision. I don't know why the defender didn't try to wrap his hands around him. He would have saved the try, or at least the saffers would have had to take the shot at goal from right next to the sideline.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Nope. That was not the same Toeava actually tackled Hape, he did not shoulder charge him

Toaeva has arms extended forwards and either side of Hape, and attempts to wrap.

This is nothing like Liam Williams' shoulder charge on Hendriks.

Not comparing it to the Liam Williams' situation, but where is the attempt to wrap in that tackle? the gif you shows the first few seconds, his right arm furthest it gets is to the shoulder then falls off, the left hand goes under his stomach (6.53 in the video posted). To me that isn't really an attempt to wrap more that his hands are on his shoulder and slightly under the England player, so the tackle is mostly a hit with the left shoulder and slight grab with the right arm to the closest shoulder.

 

[Big Ewis]

oh my God, discussion's still going about this, no really, I can't believe it ! my LORD !...

 

[nzlizard]

Having watched the incident in question the right call was made by Walsh, however I stick by my original statement

Walsh can be a ****ing monkey though, lets not forget that.

 

[smartcooky]

Not comparing it to the Liam Williams' situation, but where is the attempt to wrap in that tackle? the gif you shows the first few seconds, his right arm furthest it gets is to the shoulder then falls off, the left hand goes under his stomach (6.53 in the video posted). To me that isn't really an attempt to wrap more that his hands are on his shoulder and slightly under the England player, so the tackle is mostly a hit with the left shoulder and slight grab with the right arm to the closest shoulder.

Right hand on the player, left arm around the back. What happens after that is of no consequence. The force of the tackle jolted Hape sideways so that to the those who dont know any better it looked like a shoulder charge. If this had happened anywhere else on the field it would not have merited a second glance unlike the Liam Williams effort which would have been a penalty no matter where it happened.

Remember the Toeva tackle went to the TMO and even with the limited protocols then in force, he could still have ruled foul play and recommended Penalty Try because it was "in the act of attempting to ground the ball in-goal"; remember the Penalty Try awarded to NZ v Ireland after the Irish winger (Tommy Bowe?) intentionally knocked the ball into touch?

 

[goodNumber10]

Right hand on the player, left arm around the back. What happens after that is of no consequence. The force of the tackle jolted Hape sideways so that to the those who dont know any better it looked like a shoulder charge. If this had happened anywhere else on the field it would not have merited a second glance unlike the Liam Williams effort which would have been a penalty no matter where it happened.

Remember the Toeva tackle went to the TMO and even with the limited protocols then in force, he could still have ruled foul play and recommended Penalty Try because it was "in the act of attempting to ground the ball in-goal"; remember the Penalty Try awarded to NZ v Ireland after the Irish winger (Tommy Bowe?) intentionally knocked the ball into touch?

I think the point people are making is that the left arm doesn't wrap around the back in the Tovea video.

People are basing that on the fact you can see his left hand the whole time which means it is unlikely for it to be extended behind hape even with the impact bounce as you claim.

Is there an angle from behind?

Comparing the two incidents is pointless though. They are quite different.

 

[TRF_heineken]

George North knocked the winger off balance. Is everyone really 100% sure that Hendricks' foot would not have touched the sideline before he crossed the tryline had Williams not touched him?

This is a big coulda/woulda/if scenario. Doesn't help we speculate. If Williams didn't touch him, then he would have scored. Maybe even ran it closer to the posts for an easier kick.

Publicly the welsh pundits, coaching staff & players backed the decision because they don't want Steve Walsh to have a grudge against them. In any case they couldn't change the decision anyway. Accept it and move on was the best policy.

They backed the decision because it was the right decision. That's all. Refs don't hold grudges against teams, it's the teams that hold grudges against refs (sometimes they have reason to hold a grudge). Yes, accept it and move on.

Steve Walsh is not a very good referee in my opinion. I say this because there are controversial decisions in so many of his matches. He has refereed some game very well in his career however he always has a proportion of games where his calls are inconsistent or just wrong. He is definitely sensitive and can be harsh because he believes he is a reasonable referee - calling the players 'mate'. Other referees would have controlled the game better - 2 yellow cards & 2 penalty tries is too much.

This is debatable, while I agree that he's mediocre, I think with the new TMO protocols, he certainly did make the correct calls regarding the penalty tries and the yellow cards on the weekend. Wales' discipline is what cost them the game. What irritates me the most about Walsh is when a captain disagrees with his interpretation, and then he makes this shrug-"I don't know"-expression. It happened again on the weekend.

I hope he doesn't get World Cup knockout games because we will definitely be talking about him & his decisions rather than the rugby, which is what he wants anyway. Very big ego.

He will get a World Cup game, as he's basically the only good ref representing Australia at the moment. As for the Knockouts, well that is entirely up to the referees panel.

 

[Jakke]

@Heineken

Spoken like a true Springbok fan!!!

Look at the video - it is not 100% that Hendricks would have stayed in bounds after the hit from George North.

Referees are only human. They are all fallible. Some refs in other sports have even been found guilty of taking bribes and match fixing! Steve Walsh is definitely the type of character to hold a grudge if criticised.

I'm saying he is a poor referee because of the way he refs games. He sets the tone and doesn't stamp out poor discipline. Some of his decisions are very good but if a different referee had been in charge it would have been a better game.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Right hand on the player, left arm around the back. What happens after that is of no consequence. The force of the tackle jolted Hape sideways so that to the those who dont know any better it looked like a shoulder charge. If this had happened anywhere else on the field it would not have merited a second glance unlike the Liam Williams effort which would have been a penalty no matter where it happened.

Remember the Toeva tackle went to the TMO and even with the limited protocols then in force, he could still have ruled foul play and recommended Penalty Try because it was "in the act of attempting to ground the ball in-goal"; remember the Penalty Try awarded to NZ v Ireland after the Irish winger (Tommy Bowe?) intentionally knocked the ball into touch?

His left arm doesn't go around the back though, it goes below the player of which no matter how you put it is not wrapping around the player.

But as said its an apples v oranges compared to the Liam Williams tackle, however some interpretations of the laws of the game a point can be made that he didn't attempt to wrap as Toeava's arm goes right under Hape, and with the gif loading slowly even looks like he tucks his arm in to hit with his shoulder more.

 

[willofthewest]

it was probably an illegal tackle by Liam... however the point is that if the tackle had been made legally the player would have still gone into touch and the try would not have been made -so e penalty try was not the appropriate decision because a try would not have probably been scored..... this was the point that alun wynn was making to Steve Walsh I think ... incidentally did anyone else notice the forward pass in that last phase of play that was made to the "try scorer"?

 

[Peat]

If he was making that point, he was wrong. When a player makes an illegal tackle, you don't assume he'd have done it legally for the purposes of the penalty try, you assume it wouldn't happen at all.

 

[goodNumber10]

it was probably an illegal tackle by Liam... however the point is that if the tackle had been made legally the player would have still gone into touch and the try would not have been made -so e penalty try was not the appropriate decision because a try would not have probably been scored..... this was the point that alun wynn was making to Steve Walsh I think ... incidentally did anyone else notice the forward pass in that last phase of play that was made to the "try scorer"?

It was foul play in the act of scoring.

It's a penalty try get over it and move on.

There is no one to blame but Williams. Not the ref, he and the TMO called it right.

 

[smartcooky]

it was probably an illegal tackle by Liam... however the point is that if the tackle had been made legally the player would have still gone into touch and the try would not have been made -so e penalty try was not the appropriate decision because a try would not have probably been scored..... this was the point that alun wynn was making to Steve Walsh I think ... incidentally did anyone else notice the forward pass in that last phase of play that was made to the "try scorer"?

If he was making that point, he was wrong. When a player makes an illegal tackle, you don't assume he'd have done it legally for the purposes of the penalty try, you assume it wouldn't happen at all.

Peat has it nailed.

When assessing the situation as regards a Penalty Try, the infringing player is removed from the scene entirely (referees often refer to this as the "beam him up" rule).

In this case, because the tackle was an act of foul play, the referee does not have to consider "what might have happened if the player had tackled the ball carrier legally?" He completely removes the tackler from the scene, and then considers whether a try would probably have been scored with no opponent to make a tackle. This is why Walsh asked the TMO for an overhead view, because he wanted to make sure there was no other Welsh defender in a position to tackle the ball carrier (I think you can hear him actually vocalise that on the video).

George North knocked the winger off balance. Is everyone really 100% sure that Hendricks' foot would not have touched the sideline before he crossed the tryline had Williams not touched him?

He doesn't have to be 100% sure of anything. His remit is to decide whether a try would probably have been scored, or not. Just keep in mind who is really responsible here. Williams shoulder charged him and that act put the situation in the hands of the Referee and TMO. From that momemt on, the try only had to be probable.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Some posters here (99% of them one-post-wonders I have to say though) doing all sorts of bending of the laws to try and argue the last penalty try wasn't a legit call all the while conveniently forgetting one of their (Welsh) tries was probably not a try either..

At the end of the day this is not the type of ref performance that warrants this level of scrutiny and bemoaning. NZ has had a few in past RWCs, SA and France each suffered in RWC 2011. The type of games where the ref consistently blows differently for the two teams, totally ignores fundimental laws or makes more than 2 big, big calls incoorectly against the same side and on the biggest stage. Now those one can legitimately complain about in my mind at least.