The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[Mumbles119]

I don't know about "worried", but some of the notable guys coming through now and in the next two years...

Maro Itoje
Matt Kvesic
Jack Clifford
Kyle Sinckler
Paul Hill
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Dave Ewers

George Robson
Henry Slade
Christian Wade
Nathan Earle

Do you mean Dan Robson, not George Robson?

I would also add Auterac to that list too

 

[SelimNiai]

I really don't get the obsession with France based players.
There are 4(? Delon, Steffon, Flood, Bendy) who could be in with a shout but only one of those is clearly better than the incumbent, but then we've players that, if they keep progressing, will surpass them.
It's not worth the damage it would do to the English club system, and the inevitable clashing of heads with the French moneymen.

Its the quick fix isn't it. The rugby media here will, like they do for all sporting (for lack of a better word) failures. Quickly find something to blame, even if its not really the problem.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Bring back Flood.

 

[Peat]

Is there anyone from your JWC teams that I should start worrying about in the near future? Can anyone name drop? Or is it rare in the UK rugby teams to promote young talent into bigger roles quite early? I'm after some backline talent, or well... 7 to 15. Because obviously you guys have done really well at the JWCs, so, surely there is players that are pure talent and ambition?

From 2013

Anthony Watson, Jack Nowell and Henry Slade are all in the backs. Watson is a wing/full-back with a lot of pace and great feet who's maybe a little raw thinking wise; great raw talent. Jack Nowell is a wing/full-back/centre who's a little small but has great footwork and power in close quarters, great rugby brain. Both of those two are sort of established now. Slade only made his debut his summer - he's a fly-half/centre; so everything you'd expect in terms of hands and technique, plus good defence and a booming boot.

Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Clifford and Sam Hill would probably be the next expected break throughs from that squad. Cowan-Dickie is a hooker converted from loosehead; still struggling with his throwing but very good around the field. Already has a cap. Clifford is an 8 converting to openside; kinda like Michael Hooper at the moment and is being mentored by Richard Hill so should pick up the breakdown. Sam Hill is a powerful guy with decent centre instincts; he's not going to wow anyone, but he could end up plugging a very important gap.

From the 2014 squad

Maro Itoje is the big name. Was in the wider WC squad. Lock/blindside, think he could play in the 6N as blindside. Big captaincy potential, big athlete. No one else imminently posed for a break through - if pressed I'd say Nathan Earle looks set for a big season on the wing for Saracens, if things go right for him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Flood aside did any of the other three impressed when playing for England as well? I remember Stefan getting a huge bigging up before his debut and he did nothing of real note.

Bendy has come out saying the rules are criminal but knows full well he wasn't even on anyone radar 12 months ago.

Delon was the best of them, imo. Probably didn't achieve as much for England because Johnson viewed him as the utility guy and switched him between wing, centre and fullback. Also his petulance/cheap shots.

Entertaining thread this. The reason Lancaster hasn't worked, put simply, is that England lost on Saturday. If England had won, you guys would be crowing and everything in the garden would be rosy

I don't think so. There have been rumbles for a while, they got louder when he announced the rwc training squad, louder when he cut to 31 and louder still after the Wales game.
I know i said i want a change regardless of where we come.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Please I would want Lancaster gone even if we got to the finals.

Interesting the 360 the press have done on him compared to pre 6N's.

 

[GoTheNaki]

[Didn't realise someone went into detail after the post I quoted]

If anyone wants to know about NZ players, hit me up for the return favour.

 

[tsof]

Do you mean Dan Robson, not George Robson?

I would also add Auterac to that list too

Would certainly add Auterac too. Big season for him with us.

I'm expecting Jamie George to have a big season too. Really not sure how SL has been picking Webber above him, but JG has all the makings of being a very, very good hooker.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Eng could pick this team and it would be 20 years old and under by the time the next world cup comes around:

1) Vunipola (24), Auterac (22),
2) George (24), Cowan - Dickie (22), Heywood (23)
3) Brookes (25), Thomas (23), Sinckler (23)
4) Itojie (20), Symons (26)
5) Launcbury (24), Kitchener (26)
6) Ewers (24), Clifford (22),
7) Kvesic (23)
8) Vunipola (22), Morgan (26)
9) Robson (23), Youngs (26), Cook (24)
10) Slade (22), Ford (22)
11) Nowell (23), May (25)
12) Eastmond (26), Hill (22)
13) JJ (24), Manu (24)
14) Lewington (24),
15) Watson (21), Daly (22)

Then you got the likes of
Waller (25), Balmain (23), Barrow (22), Stooke (23), Beaumont (22), Ludlam (19), Pearce (24), Harrison (25), F.Burns (25), B.Burns (21), Devoto (22), Atkinson (25), Walker (22), Earle (21), etc etc

What's great is that team could have been picked for the six nations and i wouldn't have been to upset (Its not our best ATM but it would still be pretty good) but with 4 years experiance under right management could be brilliant.

Obviously form will happen players will go up and down new players will arrive etc.

 

[tsof]

Clifford's being moulded into a openside at Quins now isn't he?!

Add in Paul Hill at #3 and Nathan Hughes at #8 too. Glad you've mentioned Devoto too - if he can really push on this season he should be pushing for that IC shirt in a few years time.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I thought Clifford was thought of as Easter's replacement? A ball playing 8?
Not sure why they'd mould him at openside when they've already got Wallace (and they play Robshaw there too).

 

[tsof]

I thought Clifford was thought of as Easter's replacement? A ball playing 8?
Not sure why they'd mould him at openside when they've already got Wallace (and they play Robshaw there too).

Isn't that Chisholm who's number 8? Must admit, I haven't seen much of Quins recently. Wallace is the one with the long hair, right? He's impressed a couple of times I have managed to see them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, Wallace has a couple of Saxons caps - didn't impress, but it's hard for anyone to impress with the way Saxons have played the last couple of seasons.
I was about to say "Isn't Chisholm a winger?" but Wikipedia informs me Quins do have an academy 8 of that name too :lol:

Will be interesting to see how Clifford progresses. I like him but I'm not as big a fan as a lot of others are. I'd have him at 8 or 6, but he does have the speed and awareness to play openside, from his 7s days.

 

[Peat]

Both Clifford and Chisholm were age grade 8s.

Chisholm is the more likely heir to Easter simply because he's that bit bigger. Clifford could do it, but he's not going to be bringing the pain train through muddafuddas at senior level.

What I heard on a different forum is that Clifford is viewed as the man to displaced Robshaw for club and country, with Richard Hill mentoring him and viewing him as a 7. I'm guessing Robshaw would move back to 6 for Quins and Luke Wallace would be viewed as an eternal second line player - good enough he is not (imo at least).

I didn't mention Paul Hill, as you don't back 20 year olds to break into international teams with good stocks of tightheads, but he does clearly have that raw potential and we could be bigging up after this season.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd be happy to see Clifford move to 7 as it's one less player for Beaumont to crush underneath his mighty foot in his path to claim his birthright as captain of England (and the Lions).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I can#'t see Quins keeping all those back rowers happy.


Refuse to mention Nathan Hughes.

I can maybe understand if he had some Blood relation to an England.

That's the only way i could take letting who grew up wanting to play for another country playing for England as a back up option. Even then it would be tough.

as Said 20 years old for a prop is prob a bit young to be thinking of yet.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be happy to see Clifford move to 7 as it's one less player for Beaumont to crush underneath his mighty foot in his path to claim his birthright as captain of England (and the Lions).

2012/13 the year of Braid
2013/14 the year of Seymour
2014/15 the year of Lund
2015/16 The year of Beaumont

 

[TRF_Olyy]

2012/13 the year of Braid
2013/14 the year of Seymour
2014/15 the year of Lund
2015/16 The year of Beaumont

If we get a new coach we could have a clearout and have a Lund/Seymour/Beaumont backrow.
Imagine that: England might win a ruck AND claim a lineout in the same game.
Brings a tear to the eye.

In all seriousness though: Beaumont is a fantastic talent and is on the England radar. It'll be tough, because Morgan and Binny are fantastic players, but competition breeds better players.
I just hope that they don't try and move him to lock permanently, as 8 is definitely his best position.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I know that we shouldn't break rules for just one player but I do agree with somthing Abendanon said, which was about how much he has improved as a player because of playing in France.
He's right of course - Armitage in particular was only half the player in England he is now in France. We do want players to take steps to improve their game, and sure maybe you can say fine, but then you have to move back home arfter to play for England, but it's not as simple as that because the current policy will discourage players taking steps to improve their game abroad.

Just putting it out there: Perhaps we should even be strongly encouraging young players to spend a year at least abroad plying their trade in new environments; it would hopefully make better players of them and maybe get the 'playing overseas' bug out of the system when young..

 

[Mumbles119]

I know that we shouldn't break rules for just one player but I do agree with somthing Abendanon said, which was about how much he has improved as a player because of playing in France.
He's right of course - Armitage in particular was only half the player in England he is now in France. We do want players to take steps to improve their game, and sure maybe you can say fine, but then you have to move back home arfter to play for England, but it's not as simple as that because the current policy will discourage players taking steps to improve their game abroad.

Just putting it out there: Perhaps we should even be strongly encouraging young players to spend a year at least abroad plying their trade in new environments; it would hopefully make better players of them and maybe get the 'playing overseas' bug out of the system when young..

I like that idea. Actually, England's most outstanding player for that last few games, did exactly that when he was younger. Joe Launchbury went to play in South Africa and has talked a lot about the impact the experience had on him about his work rate and ambition.

 

[ncurd]

Cips also greatly benefitted from playing overseas I really do see that argument being fair.