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The injustice of the best players on the bench...

Not sure about this. Would Wales drop Shane Williams? He doesn't suit Gatland/Edwards mould of a back whatsoever, as they both prefer big backs and largely play crash ball moves with them, and Edwards has even said so previously. But they selected him (even though his defence is weak) because he is a player who can do things with the ball which is unique.

If Shane was still around now (in his prime) he probably would be dropped, Cuthbert is a genuine talent on the wing.

Looking at the options we've had in the past like Tom James, Czekaj and Mark Jones, it's really a no brainer that Shane started pretty much every game.
 
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If Shane was still around now (in his prime) he probably would be dropped, Cuthbert is a genuine talent on the wing.

Looking at the options we've had in the past like Tom James, Czekaj and Mark Jones, it's really a no brainer that Shane started pretty much every game.

You serious?

They would have dropped the 2007-2008 Shane who scored 14 tries in 11 matches that season, just so they could have a big bosher.

Back in 2001-2003 period, Henry and Hansen picked players like Craig Morgan and Tom Shanklin (as a winger) ahead of Shane (there was even one match where Matthew Watkins and Jamie Robinson were preferred wingers ahead of the greatest little man of the professional era).

But they were looked so stupid by their choice when Shane came in and was great in the RWC 2003. Surely it would Gatland wouldn't have been silly enough to drop Shane in his prime for a decent big fast guy who just runs straight.
 
Hmmm...

Yea i've been made to look quite silly. I would say that we were over reliant on Shane though, from pretty much 2003 till 2012.

Against New Zealand though i think they would/should drop Shane, he never really played well against them.
 
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Hmmm...

Yea i've been made to look quite silly. I would say that we were over reliant on Shane though, from pretty much 2003 till 2012.

Against New Zealand though i think they would/should drop Shane, he never really played well against them.
I don't remember Shane Williams playing NZ too many times, but I won't allow anyone refer to anything related to this match as anything other than awesome.
 
Hmmm...

Yea i've been made to look quite silly. I would say that we were over reliant on Shane though, from pretty much 2003 till 2012.

Against New Zealand though i think they would/should drop Shane, he never really played well against them.

2003 RWC?

Other than that though he didn't have the best of success, Rico Gear once totally outplayed him in 2005.

He had plenty of success against Australia and South Africa though. In fact Australia were one of the teams he played best against.
 
2003 RWC?

Other than that though he didn't have the best of success, Rico Gear once totally outplayed him in 2005.

He had plenty of success against Australia and South Africa though. In fact Australia were one of the teams he played best against.

I just don't think he could deal with their physicality and dynamism. They could read him and shut him down easily, and whenever we have the ball against them we usually just kick it or crash it up so he is pretty much negated in those games.

He was great against SA because they are static and predictable, while Australia we usually gain parity up front if not more so he would have a certain level of freedom to act as a second playmaker.

I don't remember Shane Williams playing NZ too many times, but I won't allow anyone refer to anything related to this match as anything other than awesome.

That's because he was anonymous in pretty much ever game against NZ.

Thanks Olyy
 
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Not sure about this. Would Wales drop Shane Williams? He doesn't suit Gatland/Edwards mould of a back whatsoever, as they both prefer big backs and largely play crash ball moves with them, and Edwards has even said so previously. But they selected him (even though his defence is weak) because he is a player who can do things with the ball which is unique.

No Wales, wouldn't drop Shane Williams, but I think a 'preference for large backs' is a bit different to a 'preference for 10 man rugby'! A much better question would be: 'would South Africa pick Shane Williams' - I think the answer to that would be an emphatic no! I'm not suggesting that Argentina shouldn't be picking Imhoff (in fact, based on the little I have seen, would give him a shot over Agulla), I'm just suggesting that people need to realize that the teams game-plan has a massive influence on who the coaches pick. If Argentina was playing an expansive game plan where the wings were given space I think they would be mad to ignore Imhoff, but given the current gameplan, where the wings don't seem to get the ball in space, I can understand why they would start more conservative options on the wing....
 
True, but last season Imhoff was with Racing who aren't really that much of a creative side and he was breaking the line and scoring tries by himself, but obviously quick front foot ball would of course make it easier for all the backs. Look at this performance against Perpignan, none of that was created by his teammates. Imhoff also scored twice in the Stade Français matches, and helped create a try in the match against Australia. What more does he have to do in attack to be included?

Club level opposition however. Test level defence is obviously a different ball game. Perhaps notable he was wearing 15 in that video you post with plenty of space to attack from deep.

As said above, plenty other teams have selected defensively fragile wingers but who are the top try scorers who can win them matches. Agulla and Camacho struggled under the high ball against South Africa in the first match, so those wings have their own weaknesses too.

Imhoff needs to improve tackling, but I still think you gain more than you lose with him in the side.

I don't think a player like Imhoff is going to win a match for Argentina unless they put him in space and they can't even get their incumbent wingers into space. Against that background and Argentina's huge reliance on defence, imo he is more likely to lose the team a game - had the touch-judge did his job properly and ruled him out that is precisely what would have happened last week.

You do realise that Camacho has a meagre try scoring record at club level with Exeter and Harlequins. So did Agulla as well until last season. Imhoff has scored and created tries for every team he has played for such as Racing-Métro, Argentina, Jaguars, Pampas XV.

Exeter are pretty similar to Argentina with their forwards-based approach. I think Camacho left Quins just before they started getting good. I still maintain that if Camacho is given an opportunity to finish at test level he will take it (just as he did in Salta). Unfortunately Argentina aren't creating those types of chances so we can't say one way or the other.

Perhaps that is because Phelan is negative and doesn't play the players who can do that, like Imhoff, and previously Amorosino.

After his performance against the Boks in the opener, were I Phelan I'm not sure I'd play Amorosino ever again. He is like Balshaw, best used as an impact sub if at all.

I think before Argentina start picking attacking wingers with iffy defence they need to start picking centres who (rather than kicking it or shovelling it along aimlessly) actually have the ability to work the wings into some kind of space.

I'm with you on the need for Argentina to develop their attacking game but imo it should start further in-field, not on the wing. In the longer term, Fernandez and especially Bosch need to go. Sanchez to be given more gametime at 10 along with Landajo at 9 might not be the worst idea either.
 
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Club level opposition however. Test level defence is obviously a different ball game. Perhaps notable he was wearing 15 in that video you post with plenty of space to attack from deep.

You can call it "club level opposition", but Stade Francais beat Argentina. Imhoff saved Argentina from an embarassing defeat to Worcester last year as well by scoring two tries.

What can Imhoff has also shown in the very brief and limited opportunities at international level that he can attack well against harder opposition.

In that video, although he was wearing 15, none of the breaks were from full back counter attacks. All of them could have been done on the wing.

I don't think a player like Imhoff is going to win a match for Argentina unless they put him in space and they can't even get their incumbent wingers into space. Against that background and Argentina's huge reliance on defence, imo he is more likely to lose the team a game - had the touch-judge did his job properly and ruled him out that is precisely what would have happened last week.

As I just pointed out. Imhoff has played in the same game plan in the matches against Stade Francais and in some matches last year, and still scored tries and created in spite of the lack of opportunities created for him.

Apart from the missed tackle last week, he hasn't cost Argentina much in defence. Wingers can get away with poor defence easier than centres as they tackle less and can use the touchline for help.

Agulla has had his defensive errors too, he struggled a lot under the high ball in the first match against South Africa. And that (combined with Camacho dropping the ball five metres from the line), cost a try.

By the way as posted before, that try that Imhoff's weak tackling caused was a forward pass. (http://www.rugby365.com/article/49657-ioane-it-was-a-forward-pass) So if the referee had done his job properly last week he would have helped win the game. If the referee and the touchjudge had got the correct call then it would have been the same.

Exeter are pretty similar to Argentina with their forwards-based approach. I think Camacho left Quins just before they started getting good. I still maintain that if Camacho is given an opportunity to finish at test level he will take it (just as he did in Salta). Unfortunately Argentina aren't creating those types of chances so we can't say one way or the other.

Racing-Métro play with a very forward and kicking based game and Imhoff has still managed scored tries. Camacho is simply not a try scoring winger, he's like Cueto as said before. Other Exeter wingers have scored more than he did all last season in just the matches 3 matches of the season.

After his performance against the Boks in the opener, were I Phelan I'm not sure I'd play Amorosino ever again. He is like Balshaw, best used as an impact sub if at all.

What? Never play Amorosino again?

He saved Phelan's job in the Rugby World Cup, and whilst admittedly he had a poor match, he was one of the best full backs in the Top 14 last season and by far the best Argentine full back.

I don't think dropping him is sensible, especially when the alternative is Rodríguez who is an average full back who just does poor up and unders all match.

I think before Argentina start picking attacking wingers with iffy defence they need to start picking centres who (rather than kicking it or shovelling it along aimlessly) actually have the ability to work the wings into some kind of space.

I'm with you on the need for Argentina to develop their attacking game but imo it should start further in-field, not on the wing. In the longer term, Fernandez and especially Bosch need to go. Sanchez to be given more gametime at 10 along with Landajo at 9 might not be the worst idea either.

The point about centres is one I very much agree with. Bosch is not an international 13.

Cubelli should take over as 9 in November or next year imo, Landajo on the bench.
 
You can call it "club level opposition", but Stade Francais beat Argentina. Imhoff saved Argentina from an embarassing defeat to Worcester last year as well by scoring two tries.

What can Imhoff has also shown in the very brief and limited opportunities at international level that he can attack well against harder opposition.

Well it is still club level opposition. The 1st XV of South Africa and New Zealand would likely rip Stade Francais and Worcester a new one. Anyhow I appreciate Imhoff has shown he can attack but with the Pumas he will not get much opportunity to do so but he will have to defend a lot (and there is a significant question-mark over this area of his game).

Apart from the missed tackle last week, he hasn't cost Argentina much in defence. Wingers can get away with poor defence easier than centres as they tackle less and can use the touchline for help.

Agulla has had his defensive errors too, he struggled a lot under the high ball in the first match against South Africa. And that (combined with Camacho dropping the ball five metres from the line), cost a try.

Such is their gameplan and high standard of opposition Argentina can't really get away with any poor defence (as demonstrated against Oz). In which minute did Camacho drop the ball?

Racing-Métro play with a very forward and kicking based game and Imhoff has still managed scored tries. Camacho is simply not a try scoring winger, he's like Cueto as said before. Other Exeter wingers have scored more than he did all last season in just the matches 3 matches of the season.

Do you mean this season? because Exeter had a thumping win over Sale in which I'm sure Camacho could well have grabbed a couple of tries too if he had been playing. I'm not sure there are any wings in the Exeter squad that have been scoring bags of tries through last season.

What? Never play Amorosino again?

He saved Phelan's job in the Rugby World Cup, and whilst admittedly he had a poor match, he was one of the best full backs in the Top 14 last season and by far the best Argentine full back.

I don't think dropping him is sensible, especially when the alternative is Rodríguez who is an average full back who just does poor up and unders all match.

Club level again, he wasn't just poor v South Africa, he was terrible cost them around 10 points which coupled with their goal-kicking foibles was really the game. I think Hernandez is the best Argentine 15, but I rate Rodriguez ahead of Amorosino and I'd be very wary of using LA as anything other than an impact player.

If he were picking an attacking backline I think Phelan could do worse than:

9. Landajo
10. Sanchez
11. Imhoff
12. Fernandez (okay should really be Contepomi)
13. Camacho
14. Agulla
15. Hernandez

however I don't think the RC is really the right time to experiment.
 
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Well it is still club level opposition. The 1st XV of South Africa and New Zealand would likely rip Stade Francais and Worcester a new one. Anyhow I appreciate Imhoff has shown he can attack but with the Pumas he will not get much opportunity to do so but he will have to defend a lot (and there is a significant question-mark over this area of his game).

I just have to agree to disagree with you on this issue.

I understand your point that Argentina kick the ball away a lot and try and just defend, and pick the best defenders.

But I just feel they should make room for the best attacking back.

TRF_Darwin perhaps has it spot on.

Club level again, he wasn't just poor v South Africa, he was terrible cost them around 10 points which coupled with their goal-kicking foibles was really the game. I think Hernandez is the best Argentine 15, but I rate Rodriguez ahead of Amorosino and I'd be very wary of using LA as anything other than an impact player.

True he was very poor. But I have watched him with Montpellier this season and he has done very well, and did very well at the World Cup as well. He deserves more chances. Rugbyrama voted him as one of the top full backs in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWlgHjnuA9o


Camacho drops the ball at 1:18:30 on this video, South Africa score soon after.

If he were picking an attacking backline I think Phelan could do worse than:

9. Landajo
10. Sanchez
11. Imhoff
12. Fernandez (okay should really be Contepomi)
13. Camacho
14. Agulla
15. Hernandez

however I don't think the RC is really the right time to experiment.

I agree with most of that backline. Sanchez is a better kicker than Hernández too, and Hernández is certainly a top full back, many actually see that as his best position.
 
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I understand your point that Argentina kick the ball away a lot and try and just defend, and pick the best defenders.

But I just feel they should make room for the best attacking back.

TRF_Darwin perhaps has it spot on.

I do too, just not yet imho. Perhaps Phelan will pull a shock and pick him there v NZ and prove my caution wrong.

It would be cool to see the Argentinian backs actually take NZ and Australia on. I think it is possible if they get the go-forward ball they did in the first half against South Africa in Mendoza but I feel the centre combination of Fernandez/Bosch is a stumbling block to them making the most of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWlgHjnuA9o


Camacho drops the ball at 1:18:30 on this video, South Africa score soon after.


Ah okay, I thought you meant he dropped it 5m from the SA tryline.
 
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