The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[Maverick1987]

I don't understand why some irish posters here are so stubbornly defending the rabo, to my mind it is clearly treated as the secondary concern by the IRFU, with entire rounds of matches (the recent derby matches) being used to systematically to rest international players. Clubs in other leagues might rest players but it is the systematic way the IRFU do it that shows where their priorities lie and it's not with the rabo. That's not to say it is a worthless competition, anything but, but it couldn't be clearer that it is not the priority for the IRFU.

Where have you been all my life !! Finally an Irishman who understands what we are trying to say !!!

 

[munstermuffin]

Because they weren't at full strength either and aren't especially good anyway. Duh.



More people did turn up to watch when it was the proper full strength Leinster in the Heineken Cup than the diluted Rabo version. Both from the Scarlets and the Ospreys. Neither were "humped silly" at home either by the way.

Basically this says Regions are poor when at full strength and have no depth in squad? Well how does changing leagues improve all that and put fans through gates. Like you say more turned up for HEC game but attendance was still poor and pathetic considering rugby should be buzzing in Wales after a Lions win with Wales at heart of it and ye are 6N champions

 

[Amiga500]

More people did turn up to watch

How many?

A couple of hundred isn't gonna work miracles on the balance sheet.

 

[psychic duck]

Basically this says Regions are poor when at full strength and have no depth in squad? Well how does changing leagues improve all that and put fans through gates. Like you say more turned up for HEC game but attendance was still poor and pathetic considering rugby should be buzzing in Wales after a Lions win with Wales at heart of it and ye are 6N champions

You don't seem to be getting this. Indeed the regions are poor even at full strength and have no depth and have been for the last few seasons. If you haven't noticed there is an exodus of top players with very few replacements coming in. Just compare the Ospreys overseas players to Ulster's, Tebaldi vs Pienaar, Arhip vs Afoa, Ardron vs Muller.

There's no way you should be expecting bumper crowds for the regions whilst their squads are being dismantled, as I have repeated over and over, especially playing in the unpopular Rabo league. The AP is more popular and brings in more money, it's pretty obvious that there should be more resources available to rebuild the squad which in turn leads to a side that more people will be wanting to see in a league that more people want to see.

And by the way, the Leinster crowd in the HEC was the biggest of the season for the Ospreys, in the context of what they can realistically attract in the circumstances it wasn't "pathetic".

 

[Amiga500]

I don't understand why some irish posters here are so stubbornly defending the rabo, to my mind it is clearly treated as the secondary concern by the IRFU

It would be tertiary.

1. International games
2. HEC
3. Rabo

Not earth shattering or startling. In the Rabo, you have 22 games over which to right any one defeat. Any one defeat in the HEC can be fatal to chances in that tournament.

Clubs in other leagues might rest players but it is the systematic way the IRFU do it that shows where their priorities lie and it's not with the rabo.

The IRFU has 3 teams which contain the bulk of the International squad (discounting Connacht as only having a handful). Therefore, any dictates on player resting to their subsidiary branches will be more noticeable than a 12 or 14 team spread as is the case in other countries.

That's not to say it is a worthless competition, anything but, but it couldn't be clearer that it is not the priority for the IRFU.

Obviously.

It pulls in least money, therefore gets least priority. That is not to say it is dismissed by the teams involved, or that it is treated as a joke. The HEC is far more sensitive to 1 bad performance than the Rabo, therefore all logic dictates it gets priority.

We live in the real world. You cannot prioritise everything, so chose by order of relative importance to yourself.

 

[Amiga500]

You don't seem to be getting this. Indeed the regions are poor even at full strength and have no depth and have been for the last few seasons. If you haven't noticed there is an exodus of top players with very few replacements coming in. Just compare the Ospreys overseas players to Ulster's, Tebaldi vs Pienaar, Arhip vs Afoa, Ardron vs Muller.

There's no way you should be expecting bumper crowds for the regions whilst their squads are being dismantled,

So why were attendance $h|t when the galacticos were at the Ospreys again?

 

[psychic duck]

So why were attendance $h|t when the galacticos were at the Ospreys again?

Because the Rabo, apart from perhaps the final few weeks, is a glorified development league. They were much better in the HEC or EDF when the regions were competitive though as pointed out.

Also the Ospreys were never "Galacticos", that was just a **** name that the Western Mail made up so they could criticise them about it after.

 

[munstermuffin]

You don't seem to be getting this. Indeed the regions are poor even at full strength and have no depth and have been for the last few seasons. If you haven't noticed there is an exodus of top players with very few replacements coming in. Just compare the Ospreys overseas players to Ulster's, Tebaldi vs Pienaar, Arhip vs Afoa, Ardron vs Muller.

There's no way you should be expecting bumper crowds for the regions whilst their squads are being dismantled, as I have repeated over and over, especially playing in the unpopular Rabo league. The AP is more popular and brings in more money, it's pretty obvious that there should be more resources available to rebuild the squad which in turn leads to a side that more people will be wanting to see in a league that more people want to see.

And by the way, the Leinster crowd in the HEC was the biggest of the season for the Ospreys, in the context of what they can realistically attract in the circumstances it wasn't "pathetic".

But when ye had Bowe Collins Marshall as well as Welsh stars ye never attracted fans. In a country where arguably it's #1 sport the attendances and performances are poor. Yes there is an exodus but that will continue regardless of where ye play unless ye get it right and I'm not saying there angels but WRU can't take all blame. You say AP is more popular well than Rabo yea but not HEC and financially it won't bring in more when you loose HEC, Rabo and WRU funding to go to a league where instead of a 12 way pie it'll bring a 16 way pie. If you can't rebuild a squad in a league where there's no relegation how will ye do it in AP?

Ye won't be nowhere near top of league so fans won't come like being honest ye couldn't get them in when times were booming so why now would they come to watch at best a mid-table team.

 

[Draggs]

I always thought galacticos came from gwlad.

 

[psychic duck]

But when ye had Bowe Collins Marshall as well as Welsh stars ye never attracted fans. In a country where arguably it's #1 sport the attendances and performances are poor. Yes there is an exodus but that will continue regardless of where ye play unless ye get it right and I'm not saying there angels but WRU can't take all blame. You say AP is more popular well than Rabo yea but not HEC and financially it won't bring in more when you loose HEC, Rabo and WRU funding to go to a league where instead of a 12 way pie it'll bring a 16 way pie. If you can't rebuild a squad in a league where there's no relegation how will ye do it in AP?

Ye won't be nowhere near top of league so fans won't come like being honest ye couldn't get them in when times were booming so why now would they come to watch at best a mid-table team.

Domestic rugby is not the #1 sport. And when the regions were competitive they had good enough crowds in the HEC. The exodus will not be the same in the AP due to the extra money, the HEC makes a surprising lack of money for the regions, and the WRU will be forced into compensating the regions as they will be fighting a losing battle if the regions join the AP.

I always thought galacticos came from gwlad.

Originally Dai Young coined it as a bit of banter with Lyn Jones who called the Blues "Chequebook Charlie's". The Western Mail then jumped onto it and started claiming the Ospreys were "self styled Galacticos" which was utter bull**** but it stuck and has been used to beat the Ospreys with ever since.

 

[dullonien]

Because the Rabo, apart from perhaps the final few weeks, is a glorified development league. They were much better in the HEC or EDF when the regions were competitive though as pointed out.

I'm not sure I fully buy that argument. The likes of Leinster and Munster were always more than competitive, and produced some very good games in the Pro12. We are talking about some of the best sides in Europe, and fans still didn't turn out in big numbers to watch. Personally I think there's more to it than the quality of the league. I'm not dismissing your arguments completely, I think they have a lot of merit, but there are a lot more reasons for the failure of the Ospreys to draw big crowds when they had their star studded squad.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I found the Ospreys incredibly frustrating to watch at the time. They rarely managed to put in 80min performances, instead they made mistake after mistake and relied heavily on either their pack to grind out a try, or on Shane Williams to produce a moment of magic. They simply never managed to gel, instead playing mostly as a bunch of individuals.

That for me was more off-putting than what league they were playing in, and who the opposition were. Had they played well, and put any weakened teams sent their way to the sword, fans would have still enjoyed the occasion, and it would have forced the quality of the league to improve.

Also the Ospreys were never "Galacticos", that was just a **** name that the Western Mail made up so they could criticise them about it after.

Whilst the term 'galacticos' was an annoying one, when looking at them from a Welsh perspective it did ring somewhat true. They had the likes of Paul James, Duncan Jones (at his best), Bennett, Hibbard, Adam Jones, Mitchell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Ian Gough, Ryan Jones, Jerry Collins, Marty Hollah, Filo Tiatia, Mike Phillips, Justin Marshall, Hook, Biggar, Henson, Parker, Shane Williams, Tommy Bowe, Nikki Walker, and Lee Byrne. Compared to the other 3 Welsh regions, their squad was much stronger, and their youngsters were generally more competitive.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm not sure I fully buy that argument. The likes of Leinster and Munster were always more than competitive, and produced some very good games in the Pro12. We are talking about some of the best sides in Europe, and fans still didn't turn out in big numbers to watch. Personally I think there's more to it than the quality of the league. I'm not dismissing your arguments completely, I think they have a lot of merit, but there are a lot more reasons for the failure of the Ospreys to draw big crowds when they had their star studded squad.

Such as the Rabo being unpopular and particularly in the Ospreys case, full of Cai Griffiths XV reserve games.

Whilst the term 'galacticos' was an annoying one, when looking at them from a Welsh perspective it did ring somewhat true. They had the likes of Paul James, Duncan Jones (at his best), Bennett, Hibbard, Adam Jones, Mitchell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Ian Gough, Ryan Jones, Jerry Collins, Marty Hollah, Filo Tiatia, Mike Phillips, Justin Marshall, Hook, Biggar, Henson, Parker, Shane Williams, Tommy Bowe, Nikki Walker, and Lee Byrne. Compared to the other 3 Welsh regions, their squad was much stronger, and their youngsters were generally more competitive

No it didn't. Look at the Real Madrid Galacticos, now look at how many of those are homegrown and made their name at the Ospreys. Names like Paul James, Hibbard, Mitchell, Biggar, Walker and Parker are not Galacticos. And they didn't sign a single World XV player either.

People look back at this team with hindsight, ignoring how these players were rated at the time. A prime example being Hibbard, he was pretty awful and indisciplined back then. It's only since 2012 he's turned it around to an international standard. Paul James was a 1 cap wonder and regarded as a club player back then as well, Biggar was still a kid. Bowe and Byrne were signed after failing in their first international chances and missing out on a RWC, Phillips was signed when he was fighting with Cooper to be Peel's understudy. I could go on, but it was not such an expensive and star filled squad as made out by looking at all the players' career peaks that happened at different times.

 

[munstermuffin]

Domestic rugby is not the #1 sport. And when the regions were competitive they had good enough crowds in the HEC. The exodus will not be the same in the AP due to the extra money, the HEC makes a surprising lack of money for the regions, and the WRU will be forced into compensating the regions as they will be fighting a losing battle if the regions join the AP.



Originally Dai Young coined it as a bit of banter with Lyn Jones who called the Blues "Chequebook Charlie's". The Western Mail then jumped onto it and started claiming the Ospreys were "self styled Galacticos" which was utter bull**** but it stuck and has been used to beat the Ospreys with ever since.

It's still a big IF like here's some points you might answer
Why would fans come to AP games

What if it's a case that legal fees are huge and regions don't have to compensate

What if WRU start new regions and these teams take some fan base

Where will teams get players in future if WRU set up opposing regions and support their academies as well as having the prospect of underage international rugby being there.

If all this goes bust and regions are really struggling financially will they still be bailed out by PRL

If a Welsh team is relegated (I believe 1 can be per season is it? ) and gets stuck down in Championship for few years. What will happen then like they'd hardly be able to keep afloat financially there.

And lastly do you believe that the difference in finances are that big that it'll all be that much better

 

[munstermuffin]

Such as the Rabo being unpopular and particularly in the Ospreys case, full of Cai Griffiths XV reserve games.



No it didn't. Look at the Real Madrid Galacticos, now look at how many of those are homegrown and made their name at the Ospreys. Names like Paul James, Hibbard, Mitchell, Biggar, Walker and Parker are not Galacticos. And they didn't sign a single World XV player either.

People look back at this team with hindsight, ignoring how these players were rated at the time. A prime example being Hibbard, he was pretty awful and indisciplined back then. It's only since 2012 he's turned it around to an international standard. Paul James was a 1 cap wonder and regarded as a club player back then as well, Biggar was still a kid. Bowe and Byrne were signed after failing in their first international chances and missing out on a RWC, Phillips was signed when he was fighting with Cooper to be Peel's understudy. I could go on, but it was not such an expensive and star filled squad as made out by looking at all the players' career peaks that happened at different times.

Yes but they all established international places there. And made their Worldclass status there. Like come on ye had Hook, Byrne, Bowe, Williams, Phillips, Marshall and a pack containing AW Jones Adam Jones Ryan Jones etc. I remember in 09 when we beat ye in QF ye had the potential to have a massive amount of Lions but players played themselves off of it. Ryan Jones was fella UK media wanted as captain yet he played his way off tour

 

[Amiga500]

Because the Rabo, apart from perhaps the final few weeks, is a glorified development league.

So... in summary, people have never went to watch the regions because:

- They've no big names (as proven in the galactico era).
- They don't play any big teams (as proven in the Rabo where the most successful team in Europe over the past few years plays).
- They don't play any big teams in matches that matter (as proven in the HEC where they play the biggest teams in Europe in matches where even try bonus points are critical).
- They don't play against the hated English (as proven when the hated English cross the Severn in the HEC in those European games).

 

[psychic duck]

So... in summary, people have never went to watch the regions because:

- They've no big names (as proven in the galactico era). Who played in an unpopular league and spent large amount in Gatland camps.
- They don't play any big teams (as proven in the Rabo where the most successful team in Europe over the past few years plays). And who rarely send a top side.
- They don't play any big teams in matches that matter (as proven in the HEC where they play the biggest teams in Europe in matches where even try bonus points are critical). And have been knocked out early and turned to dead rubbers recently with the squad being dismantled, and got 30 or 40,000 for home HEC knockout rounds.
- They don't play against the hated English (as proven when the hated English cross the Severn in the HEC in those European games). Which are still better than the attendances for the Connacht/Zebre half of the Rabo.

Let's look at the Leinster sides that have played league matches in Swansea then. None of those resemble the HEC version of Leinster in those seasons, nor are they good enough to break Welsh record attendances. BOD's only turned up essentially a couple of times, there's hardly ever two full sides facing each other in the Rabo like there is in the HEC.

2012/13: D. Kearney; Conway, Macken, Goodman, Carr; Madigan, Boss; van der Merwe, T. Sexton, Hagan, Browne, Toner, Ruddock, Jennings, L. Auva'a, Marshall.
2011/12: Nacewa; Carr, O'Malley, Fitzgerald, D Kearney; Berquist, Cooney; van der Merwe, Strauss, Hagan, Browne, Toner, McLaughlin, D Ryan, R Ruddock (capt).
2010/11: Nacewa; Horgan, O'Malley, McFadden, Conway; Madigan, Boss; van der Merwe, Harris-Wright, Newland, Cullen (capt), O'Donoghue, D Ryan, Jennings, Keogh.
2008/09: Dempsey, Horgan, McFadden, D'Arcy, Nacewa, Contepomi, O'Donohoe, Healy, Jackman, Wright, Hogan, O'Kelly, Jowitt, Jennings, Elsom.
2007/08: Kearney; Horgan, O'Driscoll (capt), Contepomi, Fitzgerald; Sexton, Willis; Wright, Blaney, Gomez, Cullen, Toner, Jowitt, Gleeson, McLaughlin.
2005/06: Dempsey, B Burke, K Lewis, Contepomi (capt), Kearney, Warner, O'Meara; McCormack, Jackman, Green, Dillon, Gissing, Potts, Gleeson, Miller.

 

[Draggs]

What I don't get is why the Irish want us in the pro12 so badly if apparently we don't value it like them. Let us go where we want and keep your celtic league.

 

[munstermuffin]

@Duck if you look at that though some guys from those lists picked up caps around them times too. But like those teams that went over were delivering and getting job done.

@Draggs I'd be upset if Welsh go as I personally like the Rabo and think if we were all made qualify for HEC that'd fix a lot of issues. Treat is all as 1 and not as seperate nations. Also I'd be upset because I see Welsh regions like Irish provinces and want them to be competitive but feel they're being used by PRL and it could all end awfully for regions and they could be history if they have no union to lay back on. I'm not saying WRU are right but they should try rebuild relations with them instead of jumping ship as grass isn't always greener on other side

 

[psychic duck]

@Duck if you look at that though some guys from those lists picked up caps around them times too. But like those teams that went over were delivering and getting job done.

@Draggs I'd be upset if Welsh go as I personally like the Rabo and think if we were all made qualify for HEC that'd fix a lot of issues. Treat is all as 1 and not as seperate nations. Also I'd be upset because I see Welsh regions like Irish provinces and want them to be competitive but feel they're being used by PRL and it could all end awfully for regions and they could be history if they have no union to lay back on. I'm not saying WRU are right but they should try rebuild relations with them instead of jumping ship as grass isn't always greener on other side

Because they were playing against some "Galactico" Ospreys sides. 2008/09 example just shows it best Jonny Vaughton, Ed Shervington and Cai Griffiths made this team FFS, the Rabo is full of games like this, hence why not many non Irish care/attend. Teams like this are playing half the time, and when they're not the league is devalued as half the season has been decided by teams like it.

Ospreys: Owen, K. Phillips, Parker, A. Bishop, Vaughton, Biggar, Nutbrown, James, Shervington, Griffiths, Levi, Lloyd, Smith, Holah, Tiatia.
Replacements: Spratt for Owen (60), D. Bishop for K. Phillips (14), Baldwin for Shervington (80), Mitchell for Griffiths (80), Tandy for Lloyd (66). Not Used: Pitman, Wells.

And anyway, as Draggs says, seeing the Irish opinion on the Welsh here then surely won't be too upset with the teams with "pathetic" crowds leaving.

 

[munstermuffin]

Because they were playing against some "Galactico" Ospreys sides. 2008/09 example just shows it best Jonny Vaughton, Ed Shervington and Cai Griffiths made this team FFS, the Rabo is full of games like this, hence why not many non Irish care/attend. Teams like this are playing half the time, and when they're not the league is devalued as half the season has been decided by teams like it.

Ospreys: Owen, K. Phillips, Parker, A. Bishop, Vaughton, Biggar, Nutbrown, James, Shervington, Griffiths, Levi, Lloyd, Smith, Holah, Tiatia.
Replacements: Spratt for Owen (60), D. Bishop for K. Phillips (14), Baldwin for Shervington (80), Mitchell for Griffiths (80), Tandy for Lloyd (66). Not Used: Pitman, Wells.

And anyway, as Draggs says, seeing the Irish opinion on the Welsh here then surely won't be too upset with the teams with "pathetic" crowds leaving.

But won't ye get same type over in AP?

Like John Ryan last year went to London Irish for few weeks. He was back up tight head there yet he's nowhere near Munster team. My point is what will the difference be in AP