The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[TRF_Olyy]

If he was only there for a few weeks, and went straight in to being 2nd choice tighthead, surely that suggests an injury crisis there?
It's not like they'd say "You know what, we need someone not good enough for the pro12 to come straight into our 23...doesn't matter if he's only hear for a month, just find us a man!"

 

[munstermuffin]

If he was only there for a few weeks, and went straight in to being 2nd choice tighthead, surely that suggests an injury crisis there?
It's not like they'd say "You know what, we need someone not good enough for the pro12 to come straight into our 23...doesn't matter if he's only hear for a month, just find us a man!"

Well fair enough but at same time it show AP isn't exactly all that better like I'm not saying it's worst but when you take all hype out of it I'd say there's just as many Worldclass players in both leagues and well that telling when you consider there's more money in AP

 

[Peat]

What I don't get is why the Irish want us in the pro12 so badly if apparently we don't value it like them. Let us go where we want and keep your celtic league.

Because

a) The Irish need overseas opponents of a high quality on a regular basis and the Welsh fit the bill better than anyone and finding replacements will be very difficult.

b) As someone who would like Welsh rugby to do well, with a small vested interest in its performance, I honestly think you're better off not going. And yes, there's probably some bias to that, but I'm trying very hard not to have any and looking at it as an Englishman and an Ulster fan.

For one thing, it means total civil war. The WRU will not wear it lightly and there will be a huge scramble over players for each set of Welsh pro sides. That weakens both sides. It's likely to drive more players to France with the intent of waiting it out. I'm slightly behind the times in possession of the facts here - is there still going to be a legal battle first? has there been a second offer yet? But, frankly, I think virtually any compromise between region and union will be a good thing - and I don't see England happening on that.

Nor is it a solid long term proposition. You cannot have a league that size and have Europe and I feel reasonably safe the English clubs would rather have Europe. It pays more money. The RFU want it. It opens up a higher level of competition. You guys are a second choice. Should compromise on a European tournament happen this season I rather imagine the invitation to join would be withdrawn. If not, participation probably ends at the end of those five years.

While I see how the current situation with your union is highly undesirable and forcing the regions' hand, I see this as a move from working with people who see you as long term partners to working with people who quite possibly don't. That is not a sensible move. At the same time you are putting yourselves foursquare against one of the IRB's governing principles which, to me, seems a rather messy way of doing business.

Yes, there's some friction. Yes, it's annoying to be blamed for a Welsh lack of interest - but by lack of interest, what is accurately meant is (or should be) the Welsh lack of interest in the regions, not the regions lack of interest in the Pro12. But I'd rather the Welsh stayed - and that's both for Ulster's sake and Wales' sake... and England's sake too actually.

 

[Draggs]

See, I've always been convinced that the Irish would do the exact same thing if they were where we were. Partnering with your neighbouring nation makes logistical sense.
I would be happy to keep the heineken cup, I just want out of Pro12.

 

[smartcooky]

See, I've always been convinced that the Irish would do the exact same thing if they were where we were. Partnering with your neighbouring nation makes logistical sense.
I would be happy to keep the heineken cup, I just want out of Pro12.

Hmmmm, Franco-Italian Rugby Premiership then? How about Anglo-Scottish League?


I didn't think so!!

 

[Draggs]

Italy in the ProD2 might work better than Pro12. We can bring Scotland along for a British league I suppose.

Also, I didn't say anything about Italy or Scotland in the section you quoted, so not sure of your point. I was only talking about Ireland.

 

[psychic duck]

Because

a) The Irish need overseas opponents of a high quality on a regular basis and the Welsh fit the bill better than anyone and finding replacements will be very difficult.

b) As someone who would like Welsh rugby to do well, with a small vested interest in its performance, I honestly think you're better off not going. And yes, there's probably some bias to that, but I'm trying very hard not to have any and looking at it as an Englishman and an Ulster fan.

For one thing, it means total civil war. The WRU will not wear it lightly and there will be a huge scramble over players for each set of Welsh pro sides. That weakens both sides. It's likely to drive more players to France with the intent of waiting it out. I'm slightly behind the times in possession of the facts here - is there still going to be a legal battle first? has there been a second offer yet? But, frankly, I think virtually any compromise between region and union will be a good thing - and I don't see England happening on that.

Nor is it a solid long term proposition. You cannot have a league that size and have Europe and I feel reasonably safe the English clubs would rather have Europe. It pays more money. The RFU want it. It opens up a higher level of competition. You guys are a second choice. Should compromise on a European tournament happen this season I rather imagine the invitation to join would be withdrawn. If not, participation probably ends at the end of those five years.

While I see how the current situation with your union is highly undesirable and forcing the regions' hand, I see this as a move from working with people who see you as long term partners to working with people who quite possibly don't. That is not a sensible move. At the same time you are putting yourselves foursquare against one of the IRB's governing principles which, to me, seems a rather messy way of doing business.

Yes, there's some friction. Yes, it's annoying to be blamed for a Welsh lack of interest - but by lack of interest, what is accurately meant is (or should be) the Welsh lack of interest in the regions, not the regions lack of interest in the Pro12. But I'd rather the Welsh stayed - and that's both for Ulster's sake and Wales' sake... and England's sake too actually.

Ha. You obviously don't as losing to the WRU and ending up under control of that mad power hungry deluded **** Roger Lewis would kill Welsh domestic rugby for good. The regions staying in the Rabo is essentially offering themselves as Irish whipping boys on less money in an unpopular product as crowds go ever downwards (likely prompting more critics from the ungrateful Irish no doubt), the Dragons would probably go bust and soon be left with a Scottish model of domestic rugby ie uncompetitive. The WRU will not be partners until Roger is gone, the regions have said so. Bending down at the knee to the idiot will kill Welsh domestic rugby, standing up to him will force his position to become untenable.

 

[Amiga500]

What I don't get is why the Irish want us in the pro12 so badly if apparently we don't value it like them. Let us go where we want and keep your celtic league.

Personally, I'm just sick and tired of everything but the actual cause of the problem being blamed. The average Welsh rugby "fan" is actually a pretty $h|t supporter of the game. As backed up by attendances for both the regions and the principality premiership.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

11 pages of this thread going round and round in circles. Unless people on both sides actually listen to what the other side is saying rather than being in blanket defensive mode, this thread is going nowhere. There are logical arguments being made everywhere but they're not being listened to. I suppose it's just like the actual WRU/RRW talks! It would be good if we could come to some sort of consensus here on what can be compromised on, what are entrenched views etc. It's better than the bickering that's going on at the moment! That'll get us nowhere and another 11 pages of talking in circles attacking posters with other views - just look at some of the above posts for examples of this.

For those who dislike the current arrangement, can you list out areas where the Pro 12 can improve? Just short statements are needed rather than long paragraphs - we've had enough of that from everywhere already. I can see two which are recurring themes here:

1. Weakened squads taking the field.
2. Lack of crowd interest.

For those who would like to see the current arrangement stand, why is this. Some of the views expressed so far:

1. PRL's grandstanding can't be allowed and accepting their deal is as good as supporting them.
2. If there's no Europe, dissolving the Pro 12 via an Anglo-Welsh League will harm pro rugby in Scotland, Italy and Ireland possibly beyond repair.

For now if we just forward our own points of view rather than attacking others, it'll be better for civilized discussion.

 

[smartcooky]

If the WRU pulled out of the Pro12, dissolved the regions and simply set up an Eight Team Top League Premiership, could it be made viable and would Welsh fans support it?

 

[cyRil]

If the WRU pulled out of the Pro12, dissolved the regions and simply set up an Eight Team Top League Premiership, could it be made viable and would Welsh fans support it?

There are plenty of old school Welsh rugby fans who would love that, but this whole cuffuffle is down to money. England and BT can offer the regions more money than they are currently receiving, so forsaking that and the Pro 12 and returning to an insular league would be catastrophic as no revenue would be generated to support it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Unless they manage to get BT or Sky to buy the coverage.

Sky already do the Championship.

 

[munstermuffin]

Off the topic but rumours are Italians are leaving Pro12 at end of season and setting up a new 8 team super league in Italy with academies and all.
Think Pro 12 is dying unfortunately unless we get a few South African franchises in and make it competitive.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Think Pro 12 is dying unfortunately unless we get a few South African franchises in and make it competitive.

Why on earth would they do that?

 

[munstermuffin]

Why on earth would they do that?

It's been in talks for years and before the Pro12 even took off I remember a precontract was even agreed on a Rainbow Cup which had Irish teams, South African team and I think some others. Not sure possibly welsh. This was before there were region and teams were like Pontypridd etc

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Rainbow Cup talks in 2005:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/4533261.stm

 

[ratsapprentice]

Those are the Currie cup teams as far as I can see though...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I think it was a load of rubbish being talked at the time. SA wanted to get a better deal out of Sanzar. It was Currie Cup teams but as far as I know, SA were threatening to pull out of Super Rugby and dissolving their franchises if they didn't get an improved deal. They do it every time Super Rugby rights are up for discussion.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think it was a load of rubbish being talked at the time. SA wanted to get a better deal out of Sanzar. It was Currie Cup teams but as far as I know, SA were threatening to pull out of Super Rugby and dissolving their franchises if they didn't get an improved deal. They do it every time Super Rugby rights are up for discussion.

Snoop this was more though the Currie Cup teams not Super Rugby Franchises.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

...which is what I said!